SWinner

Hey Guys, I’m helping a friend liquidate his car collection.
I’m currently getting his 68 Cutlass S Ramrod ready for sale, but I have some questions concerning the correct water pump and pulley.
This car has been sitting up in his garage since 2003. The only time that it has been run is to get it out of the garage and do a little work. I don’t believe that is has been driven more than a few times around the block.
When I started on the car, it needed a complete brake job, flushing the fuel system with a new inline filter and premium gas.
We got the car started and it sounded OK for a car that had sat for so long. Let it idle for an hour or so. We took it for a drive to seat the manual 4 wheel drums. I can’t remember when I last drove with manual brakes. They did not want to stop.
We decided to drive it on a freeway where I could ride the brakes a little. I drove it about 5 miles at 60, when the engine overheated. We towed it home and let it cool overnight. Next day I filled it with water and started it up. Lifter noise. Pulled the covers and the rockers were not getting sufficient oil, some none.
I ended up pulling the engine to have a machine shop look at it. They reported that all the cylinders were .002 too small for the .040 over pistons. It ruined 1 piston. They honed them out, replaced the piston, bearings, rings, milled the heads, did a valve job and assembled the rotating assembly.
So now I have the engine on a stand with the oil pan, front cover and heads on.
I’ve been looking at this forum and several other Old’s sites for water pumps for W-Cars. I have also been speaking with one of the JWO advisors and am getting conflicting advice.
I have attached a pdf document of 2 water pumps and 2 pulleys. On the left is a 6” HD pump with a KO pulley. On the right is the 5.5” pump and a KF pulley. This is what I pulled off the engine.
The Old’s forums seem to point to the 6” for all W-cars. The JWO adviser believes the pump and fan will spin too fast with the smaller KO pulley.
I believe that the overheating was caused by tight cylinders, faulty radiator cap and an improper pump.
I welcome all comments and suggestions.
Thanks,
Steve

Mr Shifty Sidney

I do not think a 6" water pump is correct for any Cutlass/442 in 68. I think only a 5" and 5.5" is correct. Also after looking at the 68 assembly manual I did not see a KO pulley offered, the KF is a correct for 68 pulley. I do not know enough about the Ram Rods to tell you which pulley is correct. Hope this helps.

Don W

Indy_68_S

3 groove pulley on a '68 Ram Rod ?

Mr Shifty Sidney

I would GUESS you need the 5.5" pump and a KA pulley.

Don W

allyolds68

The correct water pump pulley for a 68 Ram Rod is a KA. Except to pay north of $400 if you can find it.

cdrod

I have a nice KE 2-grove pulley GM#399401 that's been bead blasted and coated with etch primer. I think it fits a '69, not sure if that will work for you.

64Rocket

Where is the pump and pulley that was on the car at first?

Gene

davebw31

pump should be 5.5 (I think casting number is 404748, but not sure) with KA 2 grove pulley. Also, there should be an X in the upper LH corner of the pump (facing the pump). Look at the underside of the pump and see what material the impeller is. It should be cast iron. Some rebuilders will replace the cast iron one with galvanized steel and it has a smaller diameter than the cast iron one (even if it has an X). Not having the cast iron impeller can and will make it overheat. Also, measure the suction inlet of the water pump ID. It should measure 2 9/16". The 71-72 are 2 7/16" or a 1/8 th inch smaller so do not use those as it will also effect water flow. Check your thermostat that it is a high flow. If it is then check to see if it is opening all the way by boiling some water and immersing the thermostat in the boiling water (use a bulb type thermometer if you have one to see what temp. it opens at). Final point make sure you have the spring in the lower hose. If not the hose will collapse at high rpm restricting flow!

SWinner

Thanks Dave, The pump that I took off has the sheet metal impeller. I have heard that the factory pump had a cast iron impeller.
Where can a purchase one? The only ones I've found are sheet metal.

Do you know the diameter of a KA pulley. I may be stuck using the 3 grove one that is 6 1/8"

davebw31

CarQuest is a good place to find "X" pumps. I get mine there and I always use the casting number 404748. I haven't bought one in seven years. The 71-72 have an X also so that is why I measure the pump suction inlet of the pump and verify by the casting number. I also look for the cast iron impeller. Sometimes I got lucky and got one on my first order. CarQuest worked with me and would order 2-3 pumps. I was a really good customer and bought a lot of parts from them, so they treated me well!

I would have to dig for the diameter of a KA pulley. I use to know off the top of my head but I have forgotten a lot of that info since I retired and no longer do restorations.

BTW: the 455 stationary/industrial engine had the X pump and KA 2 groove pulley.

83hurstguy

The correct water pump will depend on whether the car has HD cooling. If you have the 4 row radiator/HD cooling (can't remember if that automatically came with 3.91 gears), you'll need a 400269. I thought the non-HD cooling water pump was 398681, but I could be wrong.

The KA pulley is pretty large diameter. Mine is buried somewhere in the basement.

Either way, the water pump should be 5-5/8"; the 6" one is not correct.

Tirekicker

SWinner. Your location in your profile is not complete. Where are you located? Members may be able to help you if they live near.

Tirekicker

Those are the wrong pulleys for heavy duty cooling or OAI.

SWinner

I updated my profile. I'm in Cypress, TX (NW Houston)

cdrod

I don't think the KE pulley I have is correct for your car, but just for comparison sake, the KE pulley diameter is 7-1/8".

joesw31

I know this cutlass ram-rod your discussing. The car is turquoise, 3 speed, and 3.91 open rear. I remember the car having the wrong pulley configuration. You can use repro pulleys, and obtain a correct water pump. Just remember that the crank pulley and the water pump pulley need to be matched. And I recall both were not correct.

davebw31

83hurstguy; All W cars had HD Cooling. Which radiator depended on gear ratio. 3:90s had the 4 core (VO1) and 3:42s had the 3 core (VO2). All had the X pump with cast iron impeller. All had a fan clutch and may have a fan shroud, some did not have a shroud especially those cars with the 4 core radiator that were sold in extreme cold climates. We had info from service reps that dealers were removing the shroud, because customers were complaining about "no heat". Removing the shroud killed some of the cooling efficiency.

BTW: the first winter I drove my W31 it got down to 10* below zero (with windchill probably was 30* below) one night on the way home from the plant. I got about three miles and the engine sputtered and shut off. Opened the hood, checked all the vitals seemed OK, than I notice as I took off the ram air adapter and filter lid that there was ice down in the carb.! "Holly s**t Batman", said Robin! I had to wait about 30 mins. for the heat from the engine to melt the ice. It did it again a few weeks later under the same conditions. OK, got to fix this. I took two (2) pieces of 1"X2"X10" soft pine and wrapped good quality foam around the wood and put them in to the opening of the hood scoops. I also removed the air cleaner adapter. So now the Q-jet was getting warmer air from the engine. I removed the 160* thermostat and put the original 195* back in. Wow I got heat and the wife and kids quit complaining! lol




























All had the HD cooling parts which included the X pump.

83hurstguy

Thanks for the info, Dave. From looking at the '68 dealer order sheet, it appears to require the inclusion of V01 for both 3.91 and 3.42 axles. I don't see V02 listed... was that available in '68 or was that a '69-70 deal?

Funny story on freezing it up!

RocketDevo

I am not as familiar with the 68 model year, but the Ram Rod's and W31's shared many goodies with the big blocks. I have a rebuilt 400269 and 398681 water pump available if your interested.