63super88

had the car 6 months and use it everyday. happened twice, the first time the battery (less than 3 yrs old, shouldve warned me) went and i got a replacement and used a better tie down and now it did it again (bout 2 months later, and only happens when car sits longer than 48 hrs). i may be crazy, but one of my small under the dash lights or maybe called courtesy lights on the driver side has a ground cable that is broken. the light works, but could this be slowly draining battery somehow or is my problem someplace else (nothing was left on, i took the clock fuse out for it doesnt function, and the atlernator is new and when i hook a volt meter to the terminal i get roughly 12v off and 13v on). possibly the light or what?

MDchanic

You need to do a little more investigation than that.

You need to know the charging voltage with the engine running, to within about a tenth of a volt. 13.0v would be to little. About 13.5 to 14.5 volts would be right.

Once that's done, you need to connect an ammeter in series with the battery with everything turned off and see if you have current leakage. If you do, then you need remove all of your fuses and recheck. If the leak is gone, then you need to replace the fuses one at a time, until you find the leaking circuit. The you need to follow the leaking circuit until you find the problem.

- Eric

63super88

welp the battery is pretty drained as it is but ok that would definately lead me to the issue? so what go to sears tomorow get a clamp on ammeter? im not rightly sure how to even read it never used one before?

MDchanic

Just use the ammeter on your multimeter - the drain will be well less than the 10A maximum of the average multimeter, usually a lot less.

In a pinch, you can use a light bulb. Start with a larger bulb, like an 1156, and if that doesn't light, use a smaller one, like a 194 or a little instrument bulb.

Remember that you connect ammeters in series, but voltmeters in paralel.

- Eric

63super88

so go get one of these http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00920925000P, hook it up to battery terminals, set to A for amps, if its less than 10 with car off i have a leak? and do fuse check and c what item is leaking? if i was to use a lightbulb jus take the fuses out and put em in until i see the bulb go dim or flicker? taking all of the fuses out wont be harmful to anything?

MDchanic

That meter would work fine, but the one on the bottom of the page for $20 would work too.

In light of your response above, I would strongly recommend that you do some research on line regarding the principles of electricity and electrical troubleshooting before you start.

To repeat, but more slowly this time:
Always connect ammeters IN SERIES. This means

• Remove one battery terminal
• Connect RED lead to positive side
• Connect BLACK lead to negative side
• with meter IN BETWEEN the disconnected terminal and the battery.

Start at 10A setting - turn **** to 10A, plug red lead into "10A" socket.
See what reading is - if less than 750mA, then disconnect meter, turn **** to appropriate setting which is just higher than reading (750 or 200mA on the meter you posted), plug red lead back into its normal socket, and re-check. This will give you an accurate reading of your leak.

Now remove all fuses.
Recheck current leakage.
If it is zero, replace one fuse at a time until you find the one that's leaking.
If it is not zero, then the leak is in a non-fused circuit, and you have to follow the non-fused circuits to find it.

- Eric

63super88

welp im gonna have to put my brand new battery on a trickle charge for a few hrs cuz its dead as a doornail. then im gonna go get that $23 multimeter. this royally sucks because everyone is going out tonite celebrating st patys day parade and im gonna b here in my driveway trying to figure this annoying piece of **** out. i also have an 8 track player with a black ground wire hanging and a ghetto sears cruise control some ******* tried to install years ago that doesnt function anymore so god only knows wtf this could be, but imma give my best knitwits shot at this.

MDchanic

Just remember,
Volt meters offer HIGH resistance, and are connected ACROSS the terminals you are measuring.
Ammeters offer NO resistance, and are connected in SERIES with the circuit you are measuring.
An ammeter ACROSS you battery terminals is also called a DEAD SHORT - if you put a 10A ammeter across the terminals of a battery capable of putting out 700A, the good money is not on the ammeter winning.

Also remember that that ammeter is rated at 30 seconds at 10A, so if it reads anything over 1-2A, disconnect it right away, and then go play, and then reconnect it.

With all that extra crap that other people put in, there's a decent chance that one of those items is the cause. If they don't work, I'd just remove them - just don't leave any bare wires hanging.

- Eric

63super88

welp the 8 track has a kill switch so its deff not that i think, but it could be the cruise control it has a lot going on with it with vacuum lines and a separate wire ballast they screwed in over the vent in the kick panel i should probably post pics in 5 minutes and go find the right manual for it, could just be sucking life from the car in both departments, you think?

1970cs

Here is a pic of what an ammeter in series with a 12 volt battery looks like.
Sounds like you may had some confusion on an earlier post.

Pat

63super88

i think a buddy around town has ammeter if not i have to go to sears. i have the battery charging with the car unhooked now, but i think my project is going to be removing the cruise control system because i feel that may be a real issue electrically. maybe if i can cut juice to it and remove the ccomponents,then hook up the charged battery the problem will stop im hoping.

Doc350s

Eric's idea is probably best. Good to track down leakage by replacing or removing fuses. If not you run the risk of lets try this....then this....it may be this. Spent time in a shop and the worst problems were the mystery electrical faults to repair.

stellar

Has the gen indicator lite been solved?

63super88

well now it went back to not functioning at all like it did before it stayed on. i believe it could be the purple wire to the alt, but it appears to be good on both ends so im still not sure. and now im having the issues with a battery leak, however im pretty sure it could be the old cruise control, heres some pics, like of this vacuum actuated sensor screwed to my brake pedal and anchored to the floor i believe this is part of that cruise control right?

MDchanic

Yes, that looks like cruise control stuff.

- Eric

63super88

soon as the car gets some juice im gonna either check, try changing, or jus disconnect the red wire going to the power since it has its own and goes strait to the battery from there with an inline 5 amp fuse. the fuse could be blown and thats why it doesnt operate and could be the power leak eh?

MDchanic

If the fuse is blown, then no power flows, so no leak.

- Eric

stellar

If you are not going to use the cruise, then I would remove it. For now at least disconnect the power wire to it. Then check for the leak like Eric said. I would do that with the clock fuse in and then remove the fuses one at a time to test for a leak, removing the clock fuse 1st. If there is a leak it may be related to the charging problem you are having. As far as the charging problem, you should probably bypass the lite relay and connect it like the later models as per Eric's diagram.

63super88

welp my neighbor let me use his multimeter. i set it to volts and my readings were about 1.36-1.5 V and when i set it to amps i got 50.5+, the amps actually kept climbing to up to 75 but i wasnt out there long and i took your advice and didnt want to hold it there for more than 20 seconds at a time. are these readings high, and what should i do remove fuses until readings drop and thats the leak?

MDchanic

These readings aren't high, they're nonsensical.

Like saying, "I went out to the car, the sky was green, the grass was blue, and it was raining fish."

If you got readings of 1½ volts from a 12V battery, it's the deadest battery I've ever seen.
Did you make those readings in parallel, as I explained above, or in series?
What was the meter set to when you made those readings?

If you measured 50-75A current flow out of the battery, that's more current than all of the original equipment of the car could draw, all at once.
Even with everything turned on High, you couldn't pull that much.
If You DID have that much current flowing through the circuit, you would have had a a hellacious spark when you disconnected the battery or connected the ammeter.
Also, an average car battery with about a 70 amp-hour rating, would be dead-flat in half an hour at that rate.
Also, you'd need a 110 amp alternator, just to keep the car running (the original in that was probably about 32 amps).
Heck, if you've got an electric stove at home, it probably doesn't pull more than 30 or 40A with all the burners and the oven on.

So, to reiterate the question: What, exactly, did you do?

- Eric

63super88

ok, i posted that at 3 am and was in a rush. after doing it again i noticed it has a funny countdown sort of reading, but the initial volt reading is 13.13 V. and the amperage reading was 60.5 uA so it wasnt amps but uA, ive never used one of these so im not sure what readings to look for and does this make sense now? ive been using this multimeter and puting it in line with the negative battery terminal just as u said, and using both the V~- and the uA~- settings for each reading.

MDchanic

Okay, so your battery should be holding 13.1V (or was that the reading with the engine running and charging?), and the leak is 60µA (not uA).

A 60µA draw should NOT drain your battery in the way you described - modern digital radios and stereo systems can pull over a hundred µA (I've seen 250, which is a quarter of an amp), and a car that is started every couple of weeks can support this easily. Remember, it would take a 100µA leak 600 hours to drain a 60Ah battery.

So, basically, either your leak is intermittent, you just didn't catch it, or your problem isn't a leak.

That being said, there is nothing on a 1963 car that should be drawing any current at all when the car is off (aside from the clock, which draws current for a second every five minutes), so the fact that there is any leak at all is suspicious for something left on somewhere, like a glove compartment light, and whatever that is should be taken care of.

You didn't have the door open and the dome light on, did you?

To repeat, ammeters are connected in series, as you described in your last post, voltmeters are connected in parallel.
If you connected the volt meter the same way as the ammeter, then your reading was invalid.
Since you got a reasonable number, I don't think you did that, but I need to emphasize this, because it sure seems like you just said that you did.

- Eric

63super88

no i connected it in series with the terminal and the post on the battery i had jus removed it from, and i got those readings. the car was off and all doors were closed, but to have even a reading of 60 would be odd huh? i should try to remove some suspect fuses and try to reduce this?

MDchanic

I'd pull all the fuses, then put them back in one at a time.

If you wanted to make your life easier, you might be able to use some old extension cord or speaker wire to extend the reach of the meter to the inside of the car, so you can watch it while you mess with the fuses (just remember to disconnect the dome light while the door is open).

You're getting closer.

- Eric

63super88

i pinned it to the dome/crtsy lite fuse. it has between a 60-80 uA reading when i put it in, so i took it back out and put the rest of the fuses in and it read 0, so its def that fuse wit that reading, and so it has to be one of those things right (dome/ 2 crtsy lites/ door jamb switches)? and now i also notice that the car is slightly sluggish and bogs/bucks on hard acceleration, but i dont think the battery is fully charged and my be doing this hopefully fully charging the battery until the green lite comes on on the charger this will stop?

MDchanic

Excellent. Yes, if you pull that fuse and the drain stops, you've found the circuit. Now you've just got to find the thing causing it.
My bet would be on the glove compartment light, though it's always possible there's something lurking in there somewhere installed by a previous owner.

Well, in order to answer that question, you need to see what the voltage is.

If you've got 10v, then, yes, that will make the engine run poorly.
If it's 11, though, I doubt that it would.

Just connect that voltmeter to a hot source while driving around and check your voltage - it should be about 13.5 to 14 while you're driving.
If it's not, then you've got to find out why.

- Eric

63super88

ill have to go check the voltage again real fast, these things are getting soo bothersome. and i dont have a glove box light, just a map light above the glovebox with its own switch which id had some trouble with before until i grounded it properly, the dome light and 2 courtesy lights, and the only other thing i could think that would be hooked to that line is the door jamb switches but i think those are the only things on the circuit from what ive inspected, or should be the only things on that line atleast correct?

MDchanic

Here's the circuit that is fed by that fuse - everything in the picture fed by the Orange or the Orange/Black wires. Your problem is in there somewhere.

Could be a small light bulb on, could be something else, like a bare wire just barely touching a painted surface.

You've probably just got to follow it out.



- Eric

63super88

ok now my next issue is that when i checked the voltage with the car off it read 12.6-13 V and its roughly no different at all when running. i do have a charging problem dont i?

MDchanic

Yup.

Voltage should be 1-2v higher with the engine running than it is when switched off.

Time to go through that whole relay thing again.

Personally, I'd consider switching to a 1964-up regulator, and eliminating the strange and hard-to troubleshoot components, especially if the problem turns out to be your current regulator.

- Eric

63super88

ok so ive pinned my bat leak to the fuse for dome light and ive pinned my charge problem to the field in the voltage regulator, and Mark here has given me the part number for the correct replacement. i believe ive found the correct regulator, an actual brand new delco remy replacement. after ordering this part and tinkering with the light switches in the doors and the map light i should have these issues all sealed up i hope right? i understand i could just put a different model one on there, maybe some instructions and part #s for that process would be nice too. i would really just like to get the system i have in line, now that ive got the rest of the lines running properly though. there are also settings and adjustments to the voltage that can be made inside the regulator like the service manual says, like the air gap to set the amount and temperature test to test the amount voltage is running through it, or should i just go get the original model one i found at a parts place about an hr and 1/2 from me for $70 and hope it works, after all it should be all set correctly internall and just plug in and go right?

MDchanic

I'd just replace the regulator with the right one, if you've figured out for sure that that's the problem.

Adjusting your regulator is part of the advanced class, and you don't want to screw it up.

- Eric

63super88

yea but thats $110 that i could save if the regulator i have just isnt adjusted correctly, i mean ive adjusted gap on points and spark plugs cant be much different. the manual jus says to use a feeler and adjust these things, and then test with a thermometer or temperature tester, but i think my multimeter has a temperature function on it and a separate terminal with + and - on it. and im pretty sure its the regulator because everything works, except the field isnt getting proper voltage. the wires have all been tested and i ran current to the field wire from another line and the car began charging so its def the field wire not getting right voltage i would believe correct? what im thinking is if the cotter pin i stick in it gets a good contact because its clean and thicker and the thin regulator terminal just isnt getting good contact which is possible eh?

MDchanic

Ummmmm... Adjusting regulators can be touchy.

I never advise anyone against doing something themselves, but I would recommend that you a.) carefully read through the entire procedure in the manual a couple of times first, b.) be completely familiar with how to use your test equipment, and c.) be prepared to buy a new regulator if you screw up.


I try to be cautious about things I'm "pretty sure" of.
I have literally had people die because I was "pretty sure" of one thing or another.

I agree that if you power up the Field coil and get about 16v out of the back power stud, the regulator should be the culprit, but I would go through the whole testing procedure in the manual before opening up the regulator, as you don't want to miss something simple.

If you didn't get a darned high voltage out of the alternator after you full-fielded it (like if it just went to 13.5v), then you've got some other problem that also needs to be addressed, like a bad diode or winding.

"Measure twice and cut once."


Cotter pin?

What cotter pin?

If your terminals are corroded, then you need to clean them (the best thing I've found is a Dremel tool with a tiny wire brush - makes 'em shine!).
If they're loose, then you need to slightly crimp them tighter (release female Packard-56 1/4" spade connector from plastic plug with a very small screwdriver).

Your connections are the most important part of the charging system, and they ALL need to be shiny-clean before you start messing with components.

If you want to score a (relatively cheap) later-model regulator and use it instead to test, just do what I suggested here.

Good luck.

- Eric

63super88

http://www.autopartsobsolete.com/196...r-1119507.html

just thinking about going out and getting this one. then cleaning connection in the clip and installing. this actual era replacement shouldnt need adjusting of any sort right?

MDchanic

Looks like a reasonable choice.

Just make sure it's really the right part for the car.

It should work great right out if the box - so long as it wasn't in a flood in 1968 or anything...

- Eric

63super88

diode? winding? parts in the alternator?

MDchanic

Yes...

You have read the chapter about your alternator in the Service Manual, right?

- Eric

63super88

welp got the charging system up to speed, gen light operates as it should (on when key on, goes off when running), and the voltmeter is picking up a noticable charge difference, plus the car isnt running like a sluggish 2 ton paperweight anymore . had to go through every wire end on the alt wires, light relay, and voltage regulator clip but it now functions, and without changing any parts (they were all new, cudos to the prev owner,even though the guy couldve saved me the by changing that clip with the reg but o well. atleast when the car died i was in my driveway and not on a date). i still havent gone over the slight battery leak which is def pinned to the dome light circuit, but atleast my alt is charging it all back up when i start it. thanks for all the time and help guys, very informative and now i got the factory manual and picked up all the gear i needed, and most importantly at the end of the day the Olds got the tlc it needed haha

MDchanic

Fantastic!

You did a great job, and you've learned a lot that you can use for the rest of your life.

AND you kept the car out of the hands of "mechanics" who have no idea what they're doing.

You're welcome!

- Eric