442 clone
#1
442 clone
At least they could have started with the right body style! Let alone of multitude
of issues.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oldsmobile-C...m=111936548777
Pat
of issues.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oldsmobile-C...m=111936548777
Pat
#8
Repeat after me:
It's NOT a clone.
The definition of "clone" is to create a duplicate of something. The notchback faux-four-two did not exist in nature. You can't "clone" something that never existed in the first place.
The street rod world calls cars like this "phantoms". These are cars that the factory could have built, but didn't, like 442 Vista Cruisers.
It's NOT a clone.
The definition of "clone" is to create a duplicate of something. The notchback faux-four-two did not exist in nature. You can't "clone" something that never existed in the first place.
The street rod world calls cars like this "phantoms". These are cars that the factory could have built, but didn't, like 442 Vista Cruisers.
#15
I know clone is in the dictionary but I couldn't find clone purest " I hope I spelled that right". So it's not an original fake or an original copy. Actually if you go back to the original post it says that it's a klone.
Railguy
Railguy
Last edited by Railguy; March 17th, 2016 at 12:07 PM.
#16
#19
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
It's what it is though. Some of the tribute cars flooding the market lately cater to the folks who don't know what the factory kicked out back in the day, nor do they research what the RPOs would be. None of the mistakes on this car can't be corrected as they are all cosmetic. An Olds purist can easily look past those issues in terms of proper restoration or bargaining.
There, I used the terms 'tribute' and 'purist' so Joe pedantic Padavano won't bust my chops on that.
No, of course not. If you look at the VIN it's listed as a 34257 which is the CS hardtop. Only the 34467, 34487, and 34477 would have been built with 455 engine in 1970, which this model year shows, having a 0 in the year placeholder position. That would also explain why the horn relay is on the drivers side fender, on the replacement front clip. Too many things to list as discrepancies. I wonder if Johnny Cash also worked at Oldsmobile...
#21
Go to any car show how many olds'do you see? Now ask yourself if that car were there how many people would notice?
Here's something to think about . How many Chevelles do see without the SS badge. How many people call them SS clones or would it be a Chevelle SS clone.
Railguy
Here's something to think about . How many Chevelles do see without the SS badge. How many people call them SS clones or would it be a Chevelle SS clone.
Railguy
#22
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Here's an interesting side snippet about the 'clone' or tribute cars. Light reading at it's best, and I'm sure it's part of the hype that's generating these presentations we all seem to put a bashing onto. Muscle car Clone?
Actually, a fair number of Chevelles, and maybe 35-40 % of them sporting SS badges. Of course no one will argue that some of them weren't born that way, much like many of our Oldsmobiles have been altered. Don't forget also that there were a lot of Chevelles produced also, and there's a better support market for their parts and history than Oldsmobile.
#23
I believe the Cutlass SX in 70 was the 34257 body style with a 455.
I don't think you could do a 455 in a Supreme in 71, and I believe the only way in 72 was with the notorious Hurst's.
I don't think you could do a 455 in a Supreme in 71, and I believe the only way in 72 was with the notorious Hurst's.
Last edited by Koda; March 19th, 2016 at 12:14 AM.
#24
#26
Go to any car show how many olds'do you see? Now ask yourself if that car were there how many people would notice?
Here's something to think about . How many Chevelles do see without the SS badge. How many people call them SS clones or would it be a Chevelle SS clone.
Railguy
Here's something to think about . How many Chevelles do see without the SS badge. How many people call them SS clones or would it be a Chevelle SS clone.
Railguy
My point was that any clone, tribute, replica (bad terminology) or re-incarnation erodes at the fabric what is correct/factory. The current owner if memory serves, does have the price at what a decent supreme would be selling for. The car must have had pretty good wreck at one time for it to have the 71/72 front clip installed.
It brings me back to the corral at the 2004 Auburn auction. Same body style as above with Matador red and black stripes W31 badges, it was nicely done with all new pieces. So I asked the gents sitting by it what are you guys trying to sell this as?
The reply was with a shocked look and a gulp a "cutlass" $19,995 on the window (no mention of clone) I said to them nice work, but way to pricey for a supreme. No reply!
To me it's like taking someones middle aged misses and give her lift and tuck every where that is necessary and slapping on a coat of cosmetics and saying hey I have a supermodel clone.
Pat
Last edited by 1970cs; March 19th, 2016 at 04:57 AM.
#27
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
A minor point of clarification Pat? In 72 the CS Hardtop could have been ordered as a U code or V code, both of which are mated to L75 455's (U code - AT, V code MT). The only 72 Cutlass Supreme that could be ordered from the factory with the X code L77 high performance 455 was the convertible (34267) using the W30 RPO.
The reference made to Hurst Olds is correct - they did automatically get 455's. It is my understanding that some of those HO's were also X code cars. That was an option Hurst left to the buyer; swap out the U code for X code. I don't know how many of these were produced. Not sure, but I believe these were the only models lucky enough to have the 3G4257X VIN starting sequence. All the HO's also got W25 hoods, and special trim, but I don't know if that came from the factory as special order, or whether they were swapped out at Hurst.
Koda: All Cutlass SX - RPO Y79 - models in 70/71 came with 455 engines, and included the somewhat revered cutout bumper with dual trumpet exhaust and special badging. Most SX models I've seen also have a Halo top. Interesting that although the 442 came standard from factory with a 455, the standard engine for the 71 Cutlass Supreme was the 350 4bbl, and the optional engine was the (L65) 350 2bbl that gave a small credit difference to the purchase. This pattern continued into 72 with the CS standard engine being the L34 and option being the L32.
The reference made to Hurst Olds is correct - they did automatically get 455's. It is my understanding that some of those HO's were also X code cars. That was an option Hurst left to the buyer; swap out the U code for X code. I don't know how many of these were produced. Not sure, but I believe these were the only models lucky enough to have the 3G4257X VIN starting sequence. All the HO's also got W25 hoods, and special trim, but I don't know if that came from the factory as special order, or whether they were swapped out at Hurst.
Koda: All Cutlass SX - RPO Y79 - models in 70/71 came with 455 engines, and included the somewhat revered cutout bumper with dual trumpet exhaust and special badging. Most SX models I've seen also have a Halo top. Interesting that although the 442 came standard from factory with a 455, the standard engine for the 71 Cutlass Supreme was the 350 4bbl, and the optional engine was the (L65) 350 2bbl that gave a small credit difference to the purchase. This pattern continued into 72 with the CS standard engine being the L34 and option being the L32.
#28
That's what I thought. So, 455's could be had in Supremes via SX package for 70 and 71. In 72, you could order like you said, was w-25 available in the Supreme for 72 as a standalone option?
Now this is getting really pedantic, but, other than badging, what was the difference between a 70 442 convertible and a Cutlass SX convertible? Same body minus some badges, and both had a 455. I am thinking they were not the same 455s.
Now this is getting really pedantic, but, other than badging, what was the difference between a 70 442 convertible and a Cutlass SX convertible? Same body minus some badges, and both had a 455. I am thinking they were not the same 455s.
#30
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Also the 442 had numerous upgrades to handling such as boxed control arms, heavy duty front/rear sway bar, HD front/rear springs, HD shocks, HD drive shaft, and the options for M40 AT, or M20 or M22 MT's. Needless to say the 442 also had a number of trim and appearance items that gave it a slightly different look.
The SX required the M40.
#31
Same body, yes. The 442 had a 455 that put out 270 hp, compared to the SX 250 hp. The W30 442 vert 455 put out 300 hp.
Anyway, to a previous post, the 455 was available without the SX package for 1970-71.
#32
Clone your battery.
http://www.classicindustries.com/pro...ts/t70781.html
#33
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
??? How did you read that into my comment? Koda asked a simple question - could the W25 hood be ordered on a CS Vert in 72. My answer was specific to his question, and it's the right answer.
To address your comment? Of course not. It was listed as RPO W25 for 1972 Cutlass, Cutlass S, and Cutlass Supreme. Is that more clear?
How did you ever read that I said there was? We were talking about 70/71 being the only years of the SX. We never even came close to inferring what you stated. It's pretty common knowledge amongst the folks who were discussing this thread that there was no SX model in 72. Thanks for that gem of information though.
I agree that in 1970 the CS could be ordered with RPO L33. It was also offered in the Cutlass, Cutlass S and Vista Cruiser for 1970. I will bow to your superior knowledge if you can direct me to the information that says the 455 was available as an RPO for the 71 Cutlass Supreme Hard Tops (body style 4257) that were not Y79. We already know that the 4267 could be ordered as a 3442567 so that can't be included in your answer.
Your turn, I guess.
To address your comment? Of course not. It was listed as RPO W25 for 1972 Cutlass, Cutlass S, and Cutlass Supreme. Is that more clear?
How did you ever read that I said there was? We were talking about 70/71 being the only years of the SX. We never even came close to inferring what you stated. It's pretty common knowledge amongst the folks who were discussing this thread that there was no SX model in 72. Thanks for that gem of information though.
Your turn, I guess.
#34
Allan, aside of the context issues I may have missed in your response to Koda, I'm not really interested in your games.
ADDENDUM:
You said the SX was rated at 250 horsepower, and generally 1971 items were rated in gross terms - that's how I arrived at my query.
But welcome back.
ADDENDUM:
How did you ever read that I said there was? We were talking about 70/71 being the only years of the SX. We never even came close to inferring what you stated. It's pretty common knowledge amongst the folks who were discussing this thread that there was no SX model in 72. Thanks for that gem of information though.
But welcome back.
Last edited by Diego; March 20th, 2016 at 10:05 PM.
#35
Here's part of the doc from the GM Heritage Center that shows the 455s installed in certain series.
The number of 4200-series cars built with the 455-4 almost the same as the number of Y79 cars built, which I'd attribute to a statistical error rather than a few 455-4s built without SX equipment.
Prob would be a good idea for me to lay out the engines, series, and production in another thread, no?
The number of 4200-series cars built with the 455-4 almost the same as the number of Y79 cars built, which I'd attribute to a statistical error rather than a few 455-4s built without SX equipment.
Prob would be a good idea for me to lay out the engines, series, and production in another thread, no?
#36
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
According to Olds Marketing Bulletins, the W32 was available for 1970 (article dated 9/5/69) but the cancellation of the W33 didn't happen till 2/24/70, which is 3/4 of the way through model year production. That means till the end of W33 production, an undetermined number of L33 and L32 cars were produced, unless you can show otherwise. I keep reminding myself that back in those days, hefty insurance would likely motivate sales of the SX with W33 and tall gear ratios for better overall rates, and better fuel efficiency. The Power Teams part of the SPECS shows the CS having a 455 option, but with the taller gears that fit the description of the W33 only. The 1970 Product information spells out more clearly that the (W33/W32/Y79) was the CS option for getting a 455. I can find no documentation that shows how many of the 1970 SX models were built with the L33, and how many were optioned for the W32 455 4bbl. I don't see how you can attribute statistical error to production numbers when you haven't produced anything to substantiate your claim.
Note: I looked at 'Setting the Pace' stats and they do not break down the numbers of L74/L33 or L32 production either for 1970. Same thing for 1971, they list total production of body styles, but lump all the engine production info into a box that doesn't correlate to individual production numbers.
For the 1971 model year, there's no question the SX was only available with the L32 455 4bbl. See the Power Teams section of engine availability and it's clearly laid out - only for Y79; coupes and verts + mandatory M40 transmission. Now, If you factor out 4267 models that were used for 442 and Y79 production, what I'd like to know is how many 4257 models were able to get 455 engines, as you claim they could. According to the dealer ordering and SPECS books for 1971, the 4257 came with a L74 350 4bbl standard, with only one downgrade to the L65 350 2bbl. THAT was the issue Koda and I were discussing about the 71 model year. Perhaps you could expand on that? I'd love to know how the typical 71 4257 could be ordered with an L32 or L30 engine.
As per the attachment, the 4800 series is not part of our discussion, but I realize you knew that and couldn't alter the document to remove it.
#37
This is a lot of info for an old geezer to digest all in one s3tting, but it leaves me with the question of what body style was our Ron Garey driven Chesrown Olds 71 Supreme with 455 and wasnt SX? (The lite blue one) that is still livung in Va and owned by Jim Michaels?
#39
No, of course not. If you look at the VIN it's listed as a 34257 which is the CS hardtop. Only the 34467, 34487, and 34477 would have been built with 455 engine in 1970, which this model year shows, having a 0 in the year placeholder position. That would also explain why the horn relay is on the drivers side fender, on the replacement front clip. Too many things to list as discrepancies. I wonder if Johnny Cash also worked at Oldsmobile...
One Piece at a Time
#40
Just an Olds Guy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Oops
I don't have badging on my car and I've had teen kids walking by at an ALL OLDS show saying 'these chevies were quite common back then'. I just let them walk on. Others might have stopped em and edjumicated em proper....
Railguy: Sorry bro, my bad.