Waste oil is very recyclable. Motor oil in general does not wear out in a car after 3,000 or 5,000 or however many miles you go between changes. It just gets dirty and can be cleaned and reused.

I'm not so sure how easily the rare EARTH metals (not rare metals) can be recycled. The oil is easy to recycle because it separates from the engine easily. How do you, by contrast, get the metals out of the battery? I'm sure it can be done, but it's likely to be more labor intensive.

 

That is funny I have never gotten a negative look or glance while driving my 70. In fact to the contrary I get lots of thumbs up from old and young alike.

This is the first time that I heard that a Prius emits more greenhouse gas then a Hummer. I did a google, but only found "someone's" anecdotal opinions that agreed with that statement.

I did find this paper which looks at the environmental impact

The paper examines all aspects of the vehicles including the collection of materials, assembly, operation and disposal. The Prius is far better then the Hummer.
http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...eenhouse+gases
However, where the Hummer (H3 specifically) does beat the Prius is in lifetime cost to maintain. In this regard I found another analysis that says the cost of the Hummer is $3.03/mile and the Prius is $3.25. However, keep in mind this is COST not emissions. That is a lot of money, but everyone knows that there is a high cost to cleaner cars. What this comparison did not include was the ancillary costs of a high polluting vehicle...again....such as health impacts and indirect environmental impacts such as say cost of acid rain etc. I suspect that that factoring in those costs will reduce the cost differential if not even reverse it.

Also, I think we should recognize that the electical production industry is getting more efficient and therefore cleaner. It is easier to regulate and monitor too. The one down side that I see is that the grid is vulnerable to terrorist attack. If a high volume of vehicles are electric and the grid is rendered inoperable or even significanly crippled we will be stuck....literally stuck.......and only our old gas gulping, pollution belching vehicles will be able to get around.

http://www.autotropolis.com/green-ca...hummer-h2.html

 

Be careful about which environmental threat you attribute to which source. Acid rain is caused primarily by sulfur dioxide (SO2) emissions, most of which come from coal-fired power plants and is one of the main driving forces behind the push to use low-sulfur coal. That's why the problem is most prevalent in the northeastern U.S., where emissions from mid-western coal-fired plants drift eastward. So an increase in electricity production to meet an increase in demand from electric cars would cause an INCREASE in acid rain, not a decrease, everything else being equal. Auto emissions do contain SO2 to be sure, but coal-burning plants are the largest source.

 

Whether you like it for yourself or not GM should get credit for the engineering that went into this. People say that GM stopped coming up with new ideas & when they do people bash it.

 

They have a plant in Holland, Michigan that is ramping up to start making these batteries, and another to open in 2012-2013 in Muskegon, Michigan. There is also at least one in the Detroit area.

 

Yes, acid rain was not the most accurate example, but it still illustrates the point that there are secondary costs that should be factored into the cost determination for gasoline and electric cars.

With respect to recyclability of oil I agree it can be recycled. However, my understanding is not into engine oil again. I would also tend to think that the proportion of used battery material that is recycled is likely to be much higher then the % of motor oil. Simply because of the fact that diy'ers probably won't be able to do the battery replacements.

As I was writing this I was thinking of the production, assembly and maintenance costs that one might attribute to a gas vs an electric car. I then thought the gulf oil spill should be a cost put on the ICE, but then I realized that to make the electric some of that same oil has to be burned for the power plant. Well, my point is that it is a very complicated equation. Just looking at gasoline consumed for a specific range of miles does not provide an accurate picture for cost and/or pollution potential.

The way I figure it now...in other words MHO......driving an electric in suburban or rural areas is not worth it in terms of cost nor environment. Though there may be a feel-good-about-yourself value. However, in a city like NYC I think the time is now for electric vehicles. NY is better then it was in the 60's and 70's when a low pinkish cloud hovered over it and when u blew ur nose it was black.......but it still needs cleaning up.

 

Delta vs Pruis

Go to the vet to pick up my dog. I use the Delta because it's easier to get the dog in and out of. Pull in next to a Pruis. This was after the 350 swap.

(park car, turn off motor, open door and get out)

You should be ashamed of yourself
Huh? What? Are you talking to me?
Yes I am
Why?
Driving that gas guzzler and earth killing tank
What this?
Yes
This is my project car.
So, get rid of it.
Why because it gets 8 MPG
OMG, your proud of that?!?!?
Not as much as it runs on leaded gas
YOUR A MONSTER
I'm the monster? Do you know that your Pruis emits more greenhouse gasses than this Olds?
(slience)
Also the batteries in that piece of **** last 5 years and then will leak toxins into the ground when disposed of
(still slience)
Really, Lady, you're the monster
(gets in car, drives away)

 

Well, next time some lady in a Prius challenges you just say:
"Lady if you were to buy an American hybrid car perhaps those smart Detroit engineers could develop an even better car........instead you send your money over to Japan and those smart Detriot engineers are now out of a job".

 

If you want an economical vehicle, put a GM Duramax Diesel in a classic wagon.
Massive power & torque, and great MPG. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh63EZvSl2o

Build Thread
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conver...ax-diesel.html

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums...d.php?t=138232

Or a Camaro with a Duramax
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conver...ax-camaro.html

 

What ever happened to the Hydrogen Cell that GM was developing? Remember, the skateboard platform that you installed the body of your choice on? I thought that was the most environmentally friendly idea they could come up with.

I'd like to see alternative energy cars that can pay for themselves and not have to be heavily subsidized. I've not verified it yet but heard on the news today that GSA, the agency that provides most of the US Government vehicles was going to purchase hybrid vehicles for 25% of their fleet this coming year. Shall we guess how many will be Volts?

There was also a news blip a couple weeks ago that China was going to reduce the amount of rare earth compounds they were exporting. Long ago I shared on here a link to the PBS show discussing rare earth compounds and the environmental impacts of mining and processing them. Also the show mentioned they were used in the ceramics of both Hybrid cars and the large wind mills for electricity production. It sounds like neither the US or Canada wants to produce this stuff because of the environmental impacts, what happens to the technology (or prices) when China becomes the new OPEC?

I'm afraid I don't think the Volt is the answer.

 

BTW the nice thing about diesel's is you can convert to Bio-diesel or WVO and make your own fuel.

I followed that RELIGIOUSLY because I was excited about it.

Then I learned that it takes X amount of BTU's to convert the energy "Source"
to Hydrogen. So you're burning the same amount of energy to create another form of energy.

Then I learned something that totally destroyed my belief in it. Hydrogen fuel ,
75% -90% of it in America is derived from Natural Gas. So why bother converting
Natural Gas to Hydrogen when you can just build Natural gas powered vehicles??
They have them available, but even in Chicago there's only 1 pump 35 minutes from my house.

Needless to say, they don't want to embrace the technology.
It's the least worthwhile technology , I read Switchgrass ethanol was #1.

 

You hit the nail right on the head when it comes to hydrogen. It is not an energy source, it is an energy storage medium. Hydrogen does not occur naturally as hydrogen gas. Rather, it's bound up in water and hydrocarbons. With water, energy has to be put in to separate the hydrogen and oxygen, and then you get (most) of that energy back when you recombine the two gases again and make water. With hydrocarbons, as you say, it's more energetically favorable to simply burn the hydrocarbon instead of putting in the energy to extract the hydrogen from it.

If we can find a cheap way to separate hydrogen and oxygen from water, such as perhaps by an as yet undiscovered catalyst, then the dream where you could actually fill you car's fuel tank from your garden hose and drive off might actually become reality.

 

Note: "new" idea does not always equal "good" idea. The history of technology and invention is littered with new ideas that sounded and looked good in the laboratory but never went anywhere in the marketplace.

 

Iceland has experimented with hydrogen powered cars, but they have geothermal energy that they processed hydrogen with. I guess it's like you said jaunty75, we need a "yet to be invented technology" to make some of these things work.

 

Interesting article about the Volt's mileage ratings in the 11/24/10 issue of the Wall Street Journal. The Volt will apparently get THREE mileage ratings. Note also that the WSJ misspells the word "mileage" in the headline.

GM's Volt to Get Three Milage Ratings

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...271458076.html

 

Here's what you're missing:

Personal transportation is evolving.

This will only make cars more interesting for the ensuing years.

You can choose to be afraid, or you can choose to take interest in seeing where it leads us. It has nothing to do with the "greenie" mindset but, rather, it's all about the long-term consequences of continuing to do things the same way.

Here's a thought: Whichever company discovers the "Eureka!" moment where they figure out how to use electricity cheaply and for a good range (say, 400 miles) will be a rich company. Wouldn't it be cool for that company to be American? This is what the market's demanding, so why not try to exploit this niche?

Someone else said . . .
Could you provide some proof, rather than parroting a site that feeds your own biases? I'd like to keep the discussion honest because, after all, I'm interested in the auto industry. Certainly I'm not into lies or rhetoric . . . or Priuses, for that matter.

 

Diego, I'm with you.

 

The other thing that hasn't been pointed out; there is a market for tech geeks. Some people will buy this car simply because they are interested in the tech. It's like the Android of cars (I love my Droid X

Others will buy it for the 'statement' that it offers. For those people, money is no object.

It is a niche vehicle. It will be interesting to see the numbers when this thing hits the showrooms. It may work out that people will come to the dealer just to look at the Volt, see that it is out of their price range, look on the other side of the building and notice the Cruze (which is off of the same platform) and pick one of them up, since it is priced a bit more modestly (and form all the reviews I've read, a very good car).

I personally don't think electric is the way to go. I'm all about bio fuels. Especially diesel. You can run pretty much anything in a diesel engine (except beer ****). I find myself drooling over wrecked GM pickup trucks and think the Duramax would look 'not too bad' under the hood of my 66 Delta.

 

Agreed on both counts.

I personally see Hybrids as a bad investment. A Ford Escape hybrid owner on my 2nd gen Camaro site vented about his battery swap charges. He said it was close to $10,000 he paid. I checked sources and verified it ranges from $8,000-$10,000. That's insane.

So when these dealers are pulling that bullshit telling you they don't exactly know what it costs ??? They know......they also know telling you would deter you from buying a Hybrid car. Hybrids will only come close to breaking even if you are paying close to $5 at the pump again or more. Right now, they're not a wise investment IMO. Let the hippies and E-nerds buy into the hype and bring the costs down for the rest of us.

Diesel is a much more viable solution, but the US Market won't allow or support massive diesel usage here in the states. Sure every hauler, superduty truck uses diesel, but the reality is they won't let the smaller cars like the Ford Fiesta diesel come here because IMHO refineries want to continue pushing gasoline.

 

Don't forget the insane emissions requirements that are on diesels. Even the latest model big trucks are subject to it.

You have to have a separate tank that is full of diesel exhaust fluid aka. urea, aka. donkey pee, that is injected into the exhaust. While this is an effective way to clean up emissions, it doesn't come cheap.

 

I'm sure Jetfire owners don't have a problem with this.

 

That is too funny and I would have loved to see the look on her face!

 

My wife is from the Philippines. Been there visiting relatives about 6 times. Mainly Kia and Ford. 99 percent diesel's. One american expat that I know, bought a Kia with a gas engine, and everybody thinks he is nuts!