dovervold

Brand new to the Forum as of today. I'm going to look at a 1972 Cutlass S in my local area. Seller is describing this car as a factory 4 speed with factory W25 Ram Air hood. Will believe it when I see it. Here is the body tag. I think I have everything decoded except the bottom line. Any ideas on what these mean: 05B 301549 820053

rocketraider

05B is build timeframe. 2nd week (B) of May (05) 1972.

The rest are arcane Fremont California (Z) assembly plant codes that have always been tough to decode. All plants except Fremont used pretty much standardized codes and format.

joe_padavano

Nothing on the cowl tag nor the VIN will tell you if the car was a factory four speed or W25 car.

ST 72 = 1972 model year
33687 = Oldsmobile (3) Cutlass S (36) Hardtop Coupe (87)
Z = Fremont, CA assembly plant
06973 BDY = Fisher Body sequence number
TR 947 = white bench seat interior
A52 = bench seat
53 A PNT = Saturn Gold (53) lower body color with white (A) vinyl top
05B = built second week (B) of May (05) 1972
The other numbers are unique to the Fremont plant and will tie to sequence numbers on the build sheet. Note that since this is a Fremont car, there's a possibility that the build sheet is still in the car. The top of the gas tank was a popular place to leave it.

dovervold

Thanks Rocket and Joe for the feedback. Are there any clues that might indicate it was indeed a factory 4-speed? And how about the W25 hood, any clues there as to the possibility it was factory ordered (here is the air cleaner/breather)? Last question, where is the VIN sequence stamped on the 350 blocks. Will try to confirm if the motor is numbers matching...

joe_padavano

If the VIN derivative on the trans matches the car's VIN, that will prove it was a factory four speed car (assuming it's not restamped). Other than that, only the build sheet will have the proof.

dovervold

Thanks for the images Joe. I will let you know what I find after checking the engine and trans VIN's. Would you say a Cutlass S with factory 4-speed is pretty rare?

rocketraider

If you can get under the car, look at the opening for the shifter and at the backdrive linkage. A factory floor shift car will have a neatly trimmed opening and hump for the shift lever. If it was converted to floor shift, whoever did it was likely to have left the backdrive linkage off. Sometimes you can tell simply by putting it in reverse and checking the backup lights. Also look for a starter interlock switch on the clutch pedal. That's another part commonly left out on a stick conversion.

If all that is in place, car likely started out as a stick floor shift car whether 3 or 4 speed.

2blu442

If you wind up buying the car I've found a lot of Fremont build sheets on top of the gas tank. Not something a seller would likely be willing to do, but once the car becomes yours you might want to change the old fuel lines anyway. Dropping the tank there will be a heavy tar and fiber piece, look for a build sheet between that and the tank.

dovervold

Thanks Blu442, that will be one of the first things I do if get the car. Would be pretty interesting if this was a true 4-speed, W25, Air Conditioning Cutlass S. I would think that would be pretty rare. Apparently it is a 2 owner car with 86K original miles.

joe_padavano

Just understand that the only way to actually prove the car came with the W25 hood from the factory is a build sheet or the original window sticker or sales document. The only way to prove it came from the factory with a four speed is if the VIN derivative matches or the build sheet or window sticker shows the manual trans. Looking at the installation details won't be proof - that could still have been done in someone's garage. And frankly, my original four speed 1970 W30 doesn't have backdrive linkage on it now either.

Koda

So, how do you get reverse lights, Joe?

joe_padavano

Easy. I just manually rotate the collar on the steering column.

dovervold

OK, I am going to see the 72' Cutlass S on Monday. The owner still claims it was factory ordered with the 4 speed and W25 hood. I will try to verify the VIN on the tranny. What should I look for in regards to the hood and the air cleaner that might support they were factory original:

tangokilo

I'm not positive this is a 100% thing especially on a Fremont car but... I believe factory 4 speed cars routed the positive battery cable up the back of the engine block from the starter thru a tube bolted to the rear of the drivers side head across the intake manifold along the valve cover and then over to the battery. You can see in the one picture the positive battery cable routed across the top of the inner fender. Which is where a automatic car would have it routed. Looks like a very nice car. Like the color allot! Hope you brought it home! Tom

tangokilo

I belive this is correct Four speed positive battery cable routing. I have it inside some of the black corrugated tubing you can see the red cable at the very bottom of the picture. From the factory it would not be covered you would see the red cable all acroos the top of the intake. It was routed this way

to keep it clear of the clutch Z bar.

dovervold

Wow, amazing engine bay. What a beauty. Of course, that's a 455, so could be different. I checked out some other 350's with a 4-speed and it appeared they ran the positive cable on top of the inner fender. Stay tuned, I'm trying to buy this car. It's only had 2 owners, the original purchaser ordered with the 4-speed, W-25 hood, A/C, and a bunch of other options. And it appears to be a survivor and in amazing shape inside and out. I did confirm matching numbers engine yesterday as well!

joe_padavano

The problem is that battery cable routing (or anything else unique to the MT cars) could have been changed over the last half a century. None of that is proof that the car is a factory four speed. Nothing in the VIN or cowl tag will tell you anything.