1970
I'm sorry. My response was directed at Koda, not 70 POST.

 

Why is it this group ALWAYS goes here? This kind of non sense went on with me when it was announced the Fouranado was going to be unveiled in Chicago.

This to me is borderline slander. Think twice before you post something like this without facts it could come back to bite you in the A$$.

 

Did you have a chance to dig up a copy of your broadcast card to see whether or not W-30 is designated?

My notes show VIN; 217XXX as possibly the last W-30 built in 1969, but it was a 4 speed.

 

And that somehow makes it ok? I help people here, too, you know.

In the interests of decorum, I won't tell you where to stick your amateur psychoanalysis, but, you're a low post count forum member who no one knows anything about, and you're acting suspiciously. You've had your original question answered ten times now, but you keep wanting someone to say "yes, the broadcast card doesn't matter." No one has said that, so you keep asking. I AM adding something productive to the thread, but my help is going to the general membership, not you.

 

Could you remind me what burr I slid under your butt? This is like the fifth time you've out of the blue come onto my comments with hate here.

To you it should be borderline LIBEL, as it is written, not spoken. Of course, your comment is irrelevant as you made threats in your next sentence, which, since we're getting all prosecutorial here, is much worse, from a legal point of view (and, no, self censoring with the "$$" doesn't change anything.)

 

Well since you brought it up. There are no burrs up my butt from you it is just the tone and comments that are not necessary. I spent the time with Harry on the phone to understand what he is asking and what he is looking at nothing more or nothing less. If you were truly trying to be helpful here you could have done the same rather than say he is trying to pass off fake cars. I take offense to that position.

The question was never answered here there are several dance around the question but there were no specific details or proof. I don’t know if converts were treated differently than hardtop cars but I do have a broadcast sheet from 11/11/69 for a silver W30 with that called out on the trim broadcast card.

As far as the legal I not a lawyer and if it makes you feel smart go ahead and correct me. I don’t have to prove anything here my cars and collection speak for themselves.

BTW I did not self censor you figure it out.

 

Koda,
This is another example of "helping people here" ?

 

Let's get back on track.

So Fred, the 11/11/69 Card you have which designates W-30 is for an automatic Convertible?

 

No need to jump on twilightblue28A... He is just asking questions. I have talked to him in PM's over the past couple years and comes across as a great guy looking for a quality car. If I was about to spend big money on something like that I would be asking questions also. My posts may look a little harsh at times on this thread but this is a subject I feel strong about and hate seeing people pay to much for something that could be questionable. I hope my replies were taken as intended and not anything personal.

 

No it is a hardtop car I had many years ago but saved one of the trim broadcast cards. I don’t have any for converts prior to Jan 1970 for the 1970 model year.
I have seen the one for the azure blue 4 speed car without W30 called out.

 

Also, regarding broadcast cards and 4 speeds since some have literally called out "BS" and others passed it off as someone just trying to sell a car.

It is fact!

I believe many Know Lee Pearl/ member here and his former W-30 Rag top 4 speed. I believe He has a broadcast card which does NOT designate W-3O on it. However, there is other documentation and history to support its W-30 status.......... just one of several examples of a real 4 speed convertible with no W30 on the card, which exist.

 

Another real 4 speed car with Canadian documentation proving the exception to the rule.

I made the mistake of leaving my back up hard drive plugged in to my computer and the "Russians" encrypted all my files. They only wanted $5,000.00 Ransom to unlock my files and if I believed they would actually do it, it would be worth it to get all that data back.

There was a local family who collected W-30s in Barrington Illinois. They had several, but the pair I remember wre the Sebring Yellow Cars, 1970 Coupe and Convertible.......does anyone remember that convertible and have build date info on it?

 

Also all the known and generally accepted real 4 speed Convertible W-30s w/o a designation on the broadcast card are not just built in 1969 for those who care about accuracy and actually want to lean more about these special cars,

 

But that is the key, He had other Oldsmobile documents to support it. Maybe not everyone but for me it is hard to pay good money for something that could be questionable. If this car had other documents like Lee Peral had then there would be no need for all the questions.

 

You are the one who called "BS" on the broadcast card issue with the 4 speeds. Dancing around that fact is not like you.

 

I know the person in Barrington who owned the two Sebring Yellow cars. He sold the cars years ago but did retain a number of pictures of his cars. I will try to contact him and see if he can add any beneficial information.

 

No. That's an example of a slightly heated discussion.

My original post to you is what I consider helpful. As you have asked for your original post to be answered, the only thing I can give you on that is two pieces of advice.

1. Car companies don't deviate from procedure on paperwork without reason. Find the reason, find the solution. We've got a few people on here who work for car companies currently, I'm one, and that advice comes from that area. The two reasons I can think of for not including it on early 70 w-30s is either A: They didn't do it on 69s, and made a running change, or B: there's something about a convertible that did not require Fisher body to know about it being a W-30. Only thing I can think of is that there were no Cutlass non-Supreme convertibles.

2. As Fred pointed out, he has a nice collection. I don't. However, I'm an investor, and, not to sound crass, but, I could buy his whole collection, cash, were he of a selling mind, and I wanted to buy. My advice on this point comes from this stance, which is, do not spend big money on risky investments. A risky investment is fine. A big purchase is fine. The two together is not fine. If the situation is as you say, I would recommend you walk, or buy it at a 442 + nice parts price. Explain to the seller that the w-30 documentation is insufficient, and make an offer based on such for the cost of a good price on a restored 442 with w-30 parts. Automatic convertible 442 with goodies, I'd say $60k.

 

It was a while ago and I did have pics and info of the docs on both cars, but if I remember correct the convertible did not have W-30 on the card.........not certain and I do remember a W-27 under that car...........but the older I get and the more cars I check out the more I forget.

 

If I am wrong on the broadcast card then so be it. There are enough people I trust on this thread that says it is true. I never heard of it till the 2015 nationals and have yet to see it for myself. The guy there had no document beyond a broadcast card without W-30, This guy told me that NO W-30 of any kind had W-30 on the broadcast card before 70. I showed him my broadcast card from November 69 with W-30 on it and he about cried. If Lee's car was this way then yes, I am wrong. Again, this don't change the facts on this car he is asking about. Maybe it is a W-30 but without better paperwork it should not bring a premium W-30 price. If it does bring a premium then it justifies other cars that are not W-30's

 

What is the owner history on the car? Can an earlier owner verify what the car is? Any pictures of the car from the 70's? Looking at things in totality might be the middle ground you and the seller need to reach, in order to get to a reasonable price based on what the car "most likely" is/isn't. If you ever decide to sell, you will go down this same road again with a future buyer. If you can buy it right at this time then you won't get hurt financially.

 

wow, I missed a lot in 24 hours. Unfortunately I have yet to find my docs.

Which reminds me I have two broadcast cards for my SX as well. One is a "B" production, the other an "A" production card which I have never seen or heard of until I got this car. Neither card says SX on in which to me is a bit more info on how irrelevant what emblem is put on the car at the point of creating the broadcast card.

The A card has "OD" in the Transmission box which is an SX trans in 1970. I wonder if there are any of these A production broadcast card out there for the W30s that would state OW in that box. They must have been printed at one point or another. Again without them in front of me and with as Stefano has said "many years of car history in my head" I believe I have the "A" and B" correct but it may be the other way around. My point is that maybe not all W30s had it on the cards just like W32 wasn't on mine for the SX. Its an early build SX I do know that 2- barrel.

 

I don't recall broadcast cards calling out the transmission on a W-30, this is why a broadcast card doesn't verify a 4 speed car. There can be options combined such as C60 and W30 and other Combos which would rule out a 4 speed etc.

 

Which brings me to my next point. I get documentation is the ultimate proof but that can be faked as well if someone tries hard enough. I am not aware of every seeing fake docs first hand but somebody must have tried at some point. Would be hard to fake the texture and punch holes of a broadcast card but who knows.

For that reason alone I feel many of us are knowledgeable enough to make a decision on our own and clearly Harry is just looking for some help. One comment about Harry being new with minimal posts is irrelevant to his knowledge. He has a far longer history than me with these cars and has owned some great cars in the past. It goes with many on this Forum. Heck, I never heard of Fred until I saw his cars in Hemmings years ago, took him a lot longer to join us on here. I have talked to him and have had the honor of visiting with him in person and seeing one of the most incredible Olds collections I have ever seen. If he told me a car was real, I'd take it as is. Same with many other's on here. I also have had side discussions with a few others that rarely post on here but I will tell you they know a lot. Fact is, I was only six in 1970 so most of my knowledge comes from listening, reading, inspecting and owning multiple W30s, not from the assembly line or from selling them when new. Most of us are in that same boat.

I get the investment part, but at the same time the market will tell you what its worth. If I had the money and was 99% sure a car was a W30 I'd buy it - other's wouldn't. And some have enough money they rather pay a premium for the documents. To each their own.

For those who don't own a W30 let me tell you it can be a pain. Half the people think your car is a $10,000 Cutlass convertible and treats it that way the other half try to prove the car isn't what it is. Sometimes it isn't even enjoyable. I actually prefer talking to the people who don't know what the car is, at least there willing to listen and learn. The others try looking at everything on the car to find something wrong - I tell them have at it just don't scratch it. And if they find something wrong, I probably already know what it is. It will always be a work in progress while I own it cause I drive the MFer - that's one of the reasons I bought it.

So for Harry's sake it would be nice if someone has another piece of documentation for a 1970 442 W30 Convertible with Automatic built before January 1, 1970 as well as a matching broadcast card that does not state W30 on it.

Off my soap box

 

Exactly! it looks just like the broadcast card, same size just different boxes. It had red ink on it I think that said A production across the card. Very cool and of course I can't find the dang thing or even a scan of it and I know I made copies of it. Its killing me. Hard to believe I have the only copy of a card like that in existence.

 

This is in response to Lee Peral's 442 W30 not having W30 identified on the broadcast card. I have asked whether or not anyone knows if a 1970 W30 automatic convertible, manufactured in 1969, must have the W30 identification on the broadcast card, or not. Although Lee Peral's W30 did not have W30 on the broadcast card supports my question. Additionally, assuming Lee Peral misplaced his other Oldsmobile documentation, Lee Peral's car is still a W30. I agree that other Oldsmobile documentation increases the value. But, the seller, who is elderly, lacks other Oldsmobile documentation. The remaining evidence is confirmation that the broadcast card either does, or does not, identify the car as a W30. The next piece is the car has an OW transmission,all numbers match, with the correct date coded and correct part numbers for the heads, carburetor, distributer, etc. The OW plate is not a counterfeit and ties into the production date. I only can provide what is available, which is the reason I asked about the broadcast card. No doubt if I had the window sticker, order sheet, etc the value increases. However that is not the issue. I am open to information regarding the broadcast card, favorable or not favorable. I hope this information clarifies this issue. As always, thank you for your help.

 

"Additionally, assuming Lee Peral misplaced his other Oldsmobile documentation"

Proper documentation other than the broadcast card stayed with Lee's W-30. I don't believe anything was lost or misplaced during his ownership. IMO his stewardship was a big advantage for the provenance of the car. Not to speak for him, but he may not see this post.

Harry, I fully understand what you are seeking, but it sounds like your basing your decision on just the broadcast card factor, and if that is what you are comfortable with, then great, but there is still so much more info to check off.

Here is the way I look at it: There is documented proof that some W-30s cars did NOT have W-30 designated on the broadcast card. Why this happened, I don't believe anyone knows for certain at this point.

Could this have happened on your particular W-30? I would say that yes it is possible on the car discussed as well as maybe others.

If the premise is proven out, does it change anything? You still have a W-30 equipped 442 with no factory or dealer documentation.

You asked earlier about affidavits and to me as well as some other Collectors I have dealt with, they sure can carry some weight. Example: an affidavit from the Original owner of such a car who ordered it new and is removed from the current sale could have a bearing, while an affidavit from the current seller who bought the car in 1992 may not mean as much.

Vintage pictures can be paramount to collectors as are pre-restoration photos when available.

An inspection by a knowledgeable and respected expert would go a long way as well, but as mentioned prior, once a car is restored / disturbed it can be virtually impossible to substantiate authenticity.

Bolt on components even if original and while still great clues do not mean much on a restored car as anyone can find, purchase and bolt them on.

Here are some things that can be replicated but not without some difficulty.

The casting dates of the trans and engine and rear must line up with the build date of the car. If just one of these components is "off" it could be a big red flag.

For example 455 blocks cast in 1969 and used for the 1970 model year had the plane no serif "F" used in the casting.

"F" heads for 1970 only had limited casting runs and yours would need to be early.

W-30 emblem holes were punched, not drilled which is usually very discernible on original sheet metal, undisturbed cars.

Many original fenders will have W-30 crayon markings on the inside of the fenders, You may need a bore-scope to see them.

etc etc...........

Best of luck with your quest.

 

Not to be a spoiler here, but if your throwing out the possibility of non W30 broadcast cars. Wouldn't the same possibility be that some cars were dealer W30 conversions to boost the price? I know corvettes were altered by dealers (tri-powers added...ect) to increase the sales price. It doesn't take much to convert a 442 to a W30. I would want the broadcast card stamped correctly. W30's are too easy to fake.

 

I spoke with Richard H this morning, and he told me both cars were sold as a pair in 2005, however may have pictures of the broadcast cards. Both cars were sebring yellow, automatic 1970 W-30s. If he finds pictures of the broadcast cards he will send them to me.

 

Dealer conversion highly unlikely. Look at what the option cost...not much.

Now, even at dealer prices, go buy EVERYTHING...heads, intake, carb, distributor, transmission, OAI assembly and unpainted hood (if not "converting" a W25 car). NOW.....go pay your workers to do the work, paint, remove and replace parts, etc.

The numbers would never work UNLESS it was a customer asking to have it done at WHATEVER IT COST. Especially on early cars....plenty of time to sell those cars as they were a "fresh face" and early in the model year.

 

His name is Lee Pearl, not Lee Peral.

https://levelonerestoration.com/proj...-convertibles/

 

From what I have read here. It is possible to have w-30 without having it stamped on the broadcast card, but without other documents it will always have doubts.
If you want a real w-30 find one with ironclad documents, I think this one will always have doubts unless something else shows up. That is my .02 take it for what's worth. Unless I hit the powerball, I will never have this problem.

 

I'm sorry to digress, but I agree completely. In 1970, the year in which I bought my 442 convertible new from the Oldsmobile dealer, the cost of the W30 option was approximately $350.00!! Air conditioning for my car was more expensive, approximately $475.00. Together, I got air conditioning and the W30 package for approximately $825.00, and that was before the dealers discount on extras!!!! And to top it off, I requested the window sticker from the dealer. The dealer through it out. And here's the best. When I was adding an alarm in my car, I found a card under the rear seat. The card didn't have prices. I was disappointed and threw the card away. Years later, I learned I through away the broadcast card!!!!

 

So what is the status of this adventure? Did you buy the car?

 

Thanks for asking. As soon as the owner is ready to part with the car, sometime in 2018.
In the meantime, I've been searching for a 1970 442 convertible with air conditioning in decent shape and not a trailer queen. I'm willing to pay 40-60K, depending on the condition. So far, I haven't located a 1970 that has air conditioning that is in nice condition in my price range. I have seen a few beautiful cars, but they definitely can't be driven, show only.
I renewed my post in classified, cars wanted.
I have some additional info on OW sequencing. Thanks again.
​​​​​

 

Is your car a convertible??

 

Interesting thread. Glad I finally ran across it today. Kinda reminds me of the white letters on the W-30 OAI or Firestone vs Goodyear tires topics for me...haha. But this is way more substantial and of course way more important concerning valuation.

Even if you paid for all the W-30 experts (*which there are quite a few of in this thread) to make a trip to physically inspect the car, there would still be no proof that it is a factory W-30, even if they agreed the date codes and other signs/markings on the car pointed to the positive. Or at least put it this way, you wouldn't be able to get them to sign their name to the car and personally guarantee your money back should an official Oldsmobile master list of all W-30 VINs ever be discovered and the car in question wasn't on the list. Hey, a guy can dream about such a list, right???

So you've got to go into this with the fact that without the factory documentation proving otherwise, you will potentially have a car that will be viewed as either "likely" or "possibly" a true factory W-30 by most anyone in the community. However, I've seen some real dumb high dollar sales at Mecum and BJ without such documentation, or at least without mention of it in the listing, which should be one of the first things pointed out. So apparently there are those who just don't care, as they simply buy what they like and don't do it for an investment, or at least from an educated investment standpoint.

I think you have an interesting question to answer and even if we were able to see every pre-January 1970 W-30 original broadcast card from the convertibles, it would still not provide any proof for this particular car being a true factory W-30. Regardless of what anyone tells you here you simply have to determine if it is within your comfort zone to own a question that MAY never be answered. However I'm still holding out hope on that W-30 master list.

Good luck to you and if you do end up buying it, have a blast in it.

 

Thank you for your well wishes .I am buying the car as soon as the owner of all but the first year is ready to part with his baby. He is very attached. The car has been authenticated. Several owners have told me their 1970 W-30 convertibles, built late 1969, also lack the W-30 on their broadcast cards. The transmission is numbers matching, and also has the OW tag.
In 1970, few of us cared about paperwork and documents .I had written earlier that in 1970 my first car was a 1970 W-30 convertible. I was installing a car alarm and removed the back seat to run the wires .I found a card under the seat with numbers, but no pricing .I threw the card away. Years later, and long after I sold my car, I learned I threw away the broadcast card. I did sell the protect-o-plate for an additional $5.00 to the.buyer.
Therefore, ​​​​​​ I can understand that the seller doesn't have the window sticker or any other documentation .He has owned the car for all but the first year. Similar situations. Thanks
​​​​​​

 

Sorry 70 Post, I forgot to mention I am still looking for a 1970 442 convertible with air conditioning in good shape. I am willing to pay 40-65K depending on the condition. If you know someone, please send them my way. I have seen a few, but they are show cars, and not meant to be driven. I updated my request in the classified section. Thanks again!!

 

Who woke up Rip Van Winkle ?

 

Hi Stefano,

I'm not sure if the above comment was intended for me. If it was, are you suggesting I'm living a fairytale?? I hope all is well.