Just wondering, I've picked up a failed project 65 Cutlass 442 clone. The trailing arms to the diff are boxed the last 10 inches or so. I had a real (maybe) 442 a couple years back and it had the whole long trailing arm on each side boxed. Anyone know which, if either, was correct for a 65 442?
Dave

 

Stubby box plate on the lower control arms my 1965 442 & rest assured they are original.

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Not familiar with the 65' trailing arm arrangement, but sometimes the boxed sections are there to mount a sway bar. I've had a few cars having standard C-channel trailing arms, with bolt holes in the sides, for installing brackets. Actually welded some up from angle iron, also welding in the nuts.

 

Thanks guys, appreciate the info. Later I'll have to figure out how to get and install a sway bar like my old one. It had a 10 bolt Olds rear, which seemed odd to me, for a 442. This one has a 12 bolt Chev diff and I'm not sure if the sway bar arrangement would be the same. This car was born as a Cutlass in California, and someone brought it to B.C. Probably explains why it still has a frame.

 

All 1965 442s came from the factory with the 8.2" 10 bolt rear end with posi optional. My car has a 1966 Chevy 12 bolt transplanted into it.

Differemtial makes no difference to the rear control arms nor the sway bar application when swapping 10 bolt for 12 bolt.

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Any chance your car is the blue 65 that was for sale on Craigslist a few months ago?

 

Thanks Dave. Thats some beautiful picture work. Do those bolts go right through the trailing arms, or are the other ends inside the boxed area?

 

Weren't the short boxed arms part of a recall where they welded longer plates over the end due to arm flexing & cracking?

I thought i remember reading something like that- but wouldn't be the first time i've imagined stuff.

 

I don't know if my short arms are boxed. I only looked underneath at the longer, lower ones. I'm intrigued now.

 

All the way thru to the other side of the control arm. All 1964-72 GM a body rear sway bars bolt on this way. I think you are thinking about the 73 & later style sway bar attachment.

 

Do they use a spacer inside to keep the edges from squashing together, or do you just not overtighten?

 

Clearly you are not at all familiar with the 64-72 boxed lower control arms.

The open & boxed ones start out the same. The boxed ones have an insert that goes along the bottom & up inside the control arm in the vicinity of the sway bar bolts. This insert strengthens the control arm & keeps it from flexing & bending not only from the bolts but from the torsion the sway bar applies.

The inserts are avaialble for like $20 a set & you weld them into your non boxed arms just like the factory did.

 

Pretty sure the early boxed arms were prone to flexing and cracking, and that they were redesigned for '66 to be more "stout". Not sure about the recall, though those in the know about factory tech bulletins could probably confirm or refute that.

 

I've never paid that much attention to the trailing arms, really. I drove a 70 GTO convert for 14 years, and don't think I ever gave them a thought. It's only now I'm playing with this clone 65 442 that someone has put a rebuilt 455 with supposedly 11.5 to 1 compression in it, a rebuilt Turbo 400 and 12 bolt Chevy posi 373. I'm just a little concerned that when I get the propane system off it and install the gasoline system again, I'm going to run into more power than I'm used to.

 

I asked above if this was the car on Craigslist....you did not answer.

That it has a propane system tells me that it is.

Do you really believe that the engine has 11.5:1 compression?...I highly doubt it.

If you drove a GTO for 14 years that car was likely faster than this one will be.

He was taking best offer by the end of January or something like that. Did you get it for a decent price?

 

Sorry about that, I don't remember seeing a question about CraigsList. Yes, it is the red car from CL. It was listed as a 442, but it isn't. It is missing too many 442 things. I paid $3000 for it. I assumed that it was unlikely to be that high compression. I do know for certain it's a 70-72 455 block with C heads. My Olds cars with that head were all 67 425 engines. I'm seeing an unbelievable amount of money spent on it over the years. The engine and tranny oil look like new, although propane engines always have clean oil. The motor is completely smooth. The whole interior is new, just the dash is missing everything, speedometer, switches, radio, heater controls, etc. It was being driven with just a tach and a B&M starshifter. Two almost complete propane systems, tanks, lines, mixers, carbs, the whole 9 yards, into an Offenhauser dual quad manifold. I plan to remove the propane, put a gas tank back in with the Eidelbrock single carb manifold, put all the dash stuff back in from my parts car, and try to enjoy it as it is. The fellow said it only would go about 100 k on $60 worth of propane. I think I would have changed the rear end gears before I'd butcher propane into a classic like this (just my opinion, no offense to propane lovers).
Wasn't too concerned about the stated compression. I'd have been happy with a 330 and a Jet-a-way. Once I get it more roadworthy I'll try it out. If I don't like it I'll flog it and drive one of my other old cars. It's just a game, I guess, finding old cars that need work and trying to make them better. If I like driving it, I might want a rear sway bar, though.
Thanks again for the input.

 

My question was posed in my second post right after the photo of the diff in my 65 442.

My gal & I have a place out in Tsawwassen BC just across the tunnel from you. I will be heading there on April 10th & will be there for the rest of April. I would like to see the car if you want to get together. Perhaps we coould meet in Ladner....Sharkey's is a great place for seafood lunch. I despise driving north of the tunnel.

This car was for sale for several months. I ressited the temptaion to go see it when I was there in early January. I did not want to mess with the propane. Glad someone got the car.

You state your engine is a 70-72 455. How are you ruling out that it is a 69 or 69 455?....simply by the color?. Look at the pad on the engine block under # 1 spark plug & read the stamp there. That stamp is the VIN for the car this engine was originally in & will tell you what year the block is.

 

HonestDave, can you post pictures or describe the things that lead you to believe its not a 442? The reason I ask is I have a Fremont built 1965 442 and it doesn't have the trim tag code for the side scoops. But there are other ways to key out a Fremont built 442. Check out this site and open the section Clone Y/N? John


http://www.442bro.com/

 

Actually, Dave, the car is under cover beside the house, and not being driven yet. I went by the casting numbers. I checked them on the computer and the list said 1970-1972 455. I'm retired, so if you wanted to see the car, the best time would be in the morning after the rush, around 9:30-10:00. Pretty easy driving (relatively) in the later morning. I can be available almost any time. I'm usually up by 5 but turn into a pumpkin by 8:30 or so at night. Going to the island in an hour, so won't be near the computer for a few days. When you get to Tsawwassen, call me at 604-244-1183 when you have time. Would love to show you the car.
Dave

 

Hi John, I checked a site and it said the car was a Cutlass built in Fremont California.I used the VIN. Apparantly a 3 would have been a 2 or something like that if it was a 442. It doesn't have the 4V for the side scoops either. I'll check out the site you suggested when I get back from Lake Cowichan. I enjoy finding out more about cars I'm working on, but I never seem to stay with one type for very long. I'm hoping I'll like driving this and want to keep it, but the kids keep pestering me to sell it to them. I never get that with my big Olds projects !!
Dave

 

P.S. I don't know how to do pictures on this forum yet. Maybe next week I can learn. I have a camera and can put pics on the computer, should be able to teach this old dog at least one more trick !!

 

Yes, correct for '65. but I wouldn't go with the short boxes if you plan on driving it much. As said in later posts, they were prone to cracking (breaking even) at the highly stressed area right at the end of the boxed part. I know from experience and still have the ones that were on a '65 I had. The arms were both cracked up both sides of the channels and in danger of breaking when I discovered the cracks. Long before I heard there was any problem with them.


Though it really merited a recall, I have not ever seen any indication that there was one. And likewise, I've not seen a bulletin nor think there was one.

Bottom line here is that the short boxed arms *are* a problem and a risk to keep using. Especially now with 47 year old arms.

 

No, the 3 shouldn't be a 2 and there won't be a 4V code for Fremont cars because Fremont didn't use those codes on their body tags. And the code isn't for the side scoops, it is for *all* of the body modifications for the 442 option.
There will be no indication in the VIN or body tag (on a Fremont car) to denote a 442. The 442 was an option in '65, so the model will be a Cutlass or F85 model.

 

Back from my weekend adventure. Thanks for the replies. This is becoming more interesting. I assumed it couldn't be a 442 because of the missing codes and rear sway bar, and missing 442 emblems on the door panels. The rear panel, dash and side panels have the 442 emblems and the scoops are present. It did come with new complete interior with receipts. Maybe the 442 emblems didn't get put on the new door panels. Maybe the holes are there for the sway bar in the trailing arms. It's possible the sway bar didn't get put back when the 12 bolt Chevy diff was installed. I haven't really looked hard, as I've been working on another of the kid's failed projects, an 80 Trans Am, and trying to reserect it. That's another story altogether. I do know the registration for the 65 shows it as a foreign import (U.S. I'm told by insurance person) and it's registered as a 442. I also assumed somebody must have figured out a way to change it to 442. Maybe I'm way off base and it actually IS a 442. Can't imagine I'd be that lucky. The column shifter has the handle removed. Maybe they could be ordered with column shifter and buckets. My old 70 GTO came like that. Maybe the column got changed over the years. Maybe I'll never know for sure, and should just believe the registration. The VIN shows it as Fremont Cutlass, the registration calls it 442 Foreign Import. Hope I'm not boring you guys, I just love digging into this a bit.

 

From an earlier post how are you discerning a 70-72 455 block from a 1968-69 block?. I think your source info is very wrong & leading you astray.

Since when do 1965 442s have emblems on the door pannels?

Lots of bucket seat column shift cars were made.

Easiest way is to check the frame

go here to learn all you need to know about 65 442s

http://www.442bro.com/

 

 

Sorry, pushed the wrong button.
The casting number is 396021F with the F being quite large.

My old 65 442 had 442 emblems on the interior door panels. I assumed they all did.

I just checked the frames. My 65 F85 parts car has the obvious weld lip in front of the rear wheels on the frame. The 65 Cutlass (442) ? does not. It is the one piece frame as discussed on one of the sites. I checked the Cutlass upper rear end control arm driver's side, and the frame bracket has 4 holes in it. My arms is in the 2nd from the bottom. Starting to look more promising for this rocket.

 

John, after looking over the site you guys sent me by link, I'm thinking this isn't a clone any more. It says "Magic Mirror" or whatever that is, and "BODY BF" on the tag. So far everything that site told me to check, that I have checked, has proved positive for Fremont 442. The car was definitely Fremont, and the frame appears to be 442. I'll look for the frame numbers in the next few days. Maybe I can figure out how to read the options, if there's a way on these. Dave

 

Just because it says Magic Mirror and Body BF doesnt mean its a 442. Those are things stamped on every Fremont A body data tag. F85, Cutlass, Vista Cruiser, etc. Has nothing to do with it being a 442.

 

Sounds like you are on the right track, but the last thing you should believe is the registration. The only thing that matters on the registration legally and otherwise is the VIN. The "model" (as listed on the title and registration) is not a 442 anyway, the 442 is an option, not a model. The registration may say Cutlass, 442, F85 or anything else. It means nothing really.

 

In my previous response to OldsmobileDave, I mentioned that the frame is a one-piece, it doesn't have the back section spliced onto it. It also has the 4 holes in the upper control arm bracket for the rear end. The site people have been recomending to me is supposed to be accurate www.442bro.com. It has the boxed trailing arms with holes for the sway bar. The site says the frame is the surefire way of verifying it as a 442. If you have other recomendations, I'm all ears (so to speak).

 

Dave, I recently learned that all manual transmission cars got the 442 frame. Is yours an automatic or manual transmission? Since many of the 442 parts like the side scoops aren't being repopped I suspect there may be fewer 1965's being cloned than say the 1968-72 vintage. Several years ago I talked with a guy who had a complete set of the 442 trim including the side scoops. He said he pulled them from a 442 clone and junked out the car. His reason for saying it was a clone was the lack of a 4V on the trim tag. In my part of the country there's a lot of Fremont built cars and I suspect he crushed a real 442 without knowing it. From what you've shared I think there's a good possibility that yours did start its life as a 442. But as you get into the restoration give us more details of what is and isn't there. John

 

Hi John, This car has all tinted glass. The heater controls are in the trunk, and they have air conditioning stuff on them. The column has the shift lever removed. It looks like sombody changed the dash and put a console type dash in without shift indicators. The metal outer dash piece has air vents in it, the round chrome ones on the ends and something missing lower center. Thought it was for a tape deck, but might be center air vent housing. No air stuff under the hood, but there's a hole in the firewall with a piece of cardboard over it, just to the center from the heater housing. The motor has the power steering pump and alternater both on the driver's side. Nothing on the passenger side, just a massive mess of propane equipment. I'm guessing previous owner sometime was going to go from column shift to floor shift and wanted the correct dash. I found pieces of console and a vacuum gauge in the trunk, which I sold. Probably easier to leave the B & M shifter in it and finish putting the dash together. I'll update with frame numbers if I find them.

 

John, Forgot to directly answer your previous question. Car is an automatic. Another odd thing I noticed, on the F85 parts car there's a switch that the gas pedal rod goes to after exiting the firewall. On the red 65 Cutlass (or 442) the rod is longer, and goes straight up to the throttle linkage, and there is no switch for the tranny kickdown (I assume that's what it is). I don't even see holes in the firewall for it. Seems weird. Will look a bit closer when I have more time. Wonder if that's a factory thing or someone's modification. Dave

 

my car was born a factory fourspeed cutlass, non 442, and it has a regular frame, not a 442 frame. just for the record, i do have a running 330 / jetaway if your interested dave

 

Thanks Stan, I'll keep that in mind. Interesting info on your frame. I was thinking of using the F85 tail chrome that goes between the taillights, but when I compared it to mine, it's different. My car (442 maybe) has different holes for the 442 badge. I'd have to drill new holes in the F85 one to fit the badge. Think I'll just leave mine the way it is. Who knows, it might be stock !! Dave

 

you can drill new holes and the 442 badge will cover the old ones, as for your car the only way to verify as born 442 will be match vin on the door post to a stamp on the top of the frame in roughly same area. some guys claim a mirror and a clean frame you can see it

 

Yours being Canadian probably has something to do with it Stan. Every stick car Ive seen has the 442 frame under it.

 

Its not stock, unless your so called 442 is a 4 door or a V6 sports coupe. Only those cars got a rear trim piece with the "F-85" badge on them. If your 442 trim piece has a 442 badge on it, and it only has holes in it for the 442 badge, it came off a 442 originally. And Id guess its original to your car.

 

i think hes talkin the tailpanel off his 4 door parts car TK, good info on the canadian frame

 

Thanks for the info Stan and TK, think I'll clean up the tail moulding that's on the "maybe" 442 and leave it on. If there's a chance it's the original, I'd hate to change it. I'll check into the frame numbers as time permits. I was so convinced this was a clone when I bought it. If it turns out I was wrong, I won't beat myself up over it. Was going to turn it back into a Cutlass, but without enough research that would have been stupid, I suppose. Would rather have it be a 442 if it really is. More to come.