78ChevOlds

Last week I tried to start my Cutlass and got nothing, no dash lights, etc. I noticed a couple of nights before, my headlights would dim when I press the brake pedal while idling with the wipers, radio, blower, and rear defroster on. I had the original 35 yr alternator, and I knew it was due for replacement.

So 2 days later this no start happens, I replace the alternator, get a jump, and drive the car for 30 minutes, shut the car off, and it would not start. This second time I get dash lights but once I turn the key to the run position I get a no start, but the radio, wipers still work. I get a second jump and drive the car on the highway for over an hour. I get home, shut the car off and attempt to turn it back on, Nothing.

So Yesterday, I replace my 3 month old battery under warranty which tested fine anyway and tested what I could with a test light/multi-meter. I get voltage going from the alternator and to the distributor.

Here is the weird part, while testing I had the key turned to the on position and testing with my test light to the batt connector to the distributor, I get a good light and all of a sudden the dome lights, etc turn on. I plug the connector back on and get in the car to start it, I turn the key to the run position and that kills the power and I get no lights.

The wiring to the starter is good, all the fuses tested good; although the 20 amp fuse for the lighter was blown.

It is frustrating for me, because this is a simple car. No A/C, power windows/locks etc. The battery, alternator, starter, coil, ignition module, and negative battery cable, have been replaced. The previous owner had only one recorded electrical issue where the glove box light drained her battery and that light does not work anymore. I also need to re-solder the hood light wire back to the hood light. Other than that, this car's wiring was not butchered.

Any ideas?

78ChevOlds

I know my user name is misleading, but this is a true 78 Olds , 260 Olds V8, my other car is a true 78 Chevy, hence my user name.

oldcutlass

Check your cables and clean the ends, you may have some corrosion. The light dimming at night at idle is normal with that much of a load.

78ChevOlds

I ran out of time and having a mechanic look at it. Last night I noticed the dome light came on when I opened the door, but when I turned the headlights switch on, the dome light went off.

Also, the car starts up when jumped but they can't use the negative battery cable to jump it, they had to put the jumper cable to the hood hinge for example. The car starts right up.

So I suspect the negative cable fusible link wire going to the fender might be the issue. However it is a new cable and there is no corrosion.

stellar

Ground cable should not be a fusible link. It seems you have a bad connection. Probably at battery , block, or starter. It could be battery cables corroded, but since you changed them , I would recheck all cable ends for connection integrity.

Octania

One can check voltage drop across any connection or part with a voltmeter. This is basic troubleshooting. Sounds like maybe the rear of RH head to car body ground wire is not good.

When you say "would not start" - what exactly does that mean?
The STARTING system is entirely separate from the ignition system, the lights wiring, etc. If the starter motor isn't cranking the engine, that's the 1st thing to address. SIMPLE system. 3-4 wires and 2-3 components.

I suspect what you meant is that the starter was not cranking the engine. This was just gone over recently. The big cables obviously need to be secure and good. Toothed washer between gnd cable end and block, to cut thru the paint. Starter ground/ support strap in place. Check for 12V at the large purple wire feeding the solenoid when key is in START position.

Grounding a jumper battery to the HOOD HINGE is Primitive Pete work. The destination is the starter, so the engine block or a heavy bracket attached to the engine is used. Alternator bracket, engine lifting loop, PS bracket...

NO GOOD can come from sending the power thru the hood hinge, and fender and body, and.... what? the body ground?

stellar

Grounding a jumper battery to the HOOD HINGE is Primitive Pete work. The destination is the starter, so the engine block or a heavy bracket attached to the engine is used. Alternator bracket, engine lifting loop, PS bracket...

NO GOOD can come from sending the power thru the hood hinge, and fender and body, and.... what? the body ground?
X2

oldcutlass

This statement seems to tell the story. As Steller stated, there is no fusible link, My guess either a bad connection on your negative cable or a bad negative cable.

Another possibility is a shorted cell in the battery. I have gotten bad batteries new.

78ChevOlds

it was the pigtail wire going to the fender from the negative battery cable that was the issue. The damn replacements on the new negative battery cables are not a full wire so you have to crimp it onto the existing wire. Somehow that failed. A new wire was crimped on and that resolved the issue. The lights do not dim under load and all is well.

That is one reason why I like the simplicity of these cars, no electronic modules, etc.

Thanks for the advice and hints.

MDchanic

Are you saying that you are relying on a crimped connection for your entire body ground?

Go back and solder it. Do the job right.

No wonder you had problems.

- Eric

oldcutlass

I don't see how the small pigtail would prevent the car from starting unless the negative battery cable is not good. The starter draws a ground directly from the block and it also gets it's power indirectly from the battery. You can duplicate this by disconnecting the pigtail and see if the car starts.

I can see it causing issues with lights and accessories. Also as Octania stated above you have a possible issue with the ground strap on the rear of the engine.

MDchanic

True - the circuit goes from the battery, to the starter hot post, to the horn relay hot post, to the ignition switch, to the neutral safety switch, to the starter solenoid, then back the the battery through the heavy engine ground wire.

- Eric

droldsmorland

As everyone has stated here grounds are your friend in a negative ground system. So is looking at voltage drop. Get a schematic/diagram and locate all grounds and clean them all. You make no mention of the positive cables condition nor do you give an explanation of why the negative cable cant be used to jump the car?
Secondly have you ever checked the bulk head connector at the firewall. Pull that apart and inspect for corrosion and integrity. How about the ignition switch and its associated neutral safety interlock? Move the shifter around when you get no starts, see if it starts. Did you have both batteries load tested...surface charge wont tell you much?
And just to clarify...are you experiencing "no starts" or "no cranks" just plain dead no solenoid clicks etc... before the Jump?
Check the door jamb dome light switches too. You may have a secondary short which is leading you off course to the main problem, you could be fighting two or more.

78ChevOlds

my car is fixed and has been consistently running for 2 days with no issues. The smaller wire bolted to the fender from the negative battery cable was the issue.

I can take a picture to show what I mean. For the Olds I was not able to find an exact negative cable with a full pigtail wire as I was able with my Camaro. The ones at Rock Auto are meant to be spliced to the existing wire going to the fender.

oldcutlass

Can you do me a favor and disconnect the small pigtail and try and start your car. The reason I ask this is because if the car does not start, then all your load is going through the small wire and none through the negative ground cable. This will lead to the small pigtail overloading and causing some major issues.

MDchanic

Not a bad idea, but I would say that even if the wire is 10ga, a few seconds of cranking should melt the insulation off if its the only path to ground.

- Eric

78ChevOlds

Good suggestion. I can try that Sunday and let you know.

Dave

Octania

"Also as Octania stated above you have a possible issue with the ground strap on the rear of the engine."
===================
Actually I was referring to the ground solid steel strap from starter motor coil case to engine block.
But, yes, the body ground at the rear of the RH head also must be in place and functional. AND the front end sheetmetal ground jumper to battery (-) cable.


"the circuit goes from the battery, to the starter hot post, to the horn relay hot post, to the ignition switch, to the neutral safety switch, to the starter solenoid, then back to the the battery through the heavy engine ground wire."
=====================
...Solenoid to starter coils and armature, to starter coil case...
this is where your NEED for the STRAP comes in... to strap to engine block to lower end of (-) cable, thru cable to upper terminal to battery post.

No starter strap?
THEORETICALLY: starter case to starter nose piece to block... etc.

IN PRACTICE: I have seen the case to nosepiece steel/AL connection fail to conduct electricity. In this case, you can SUPPLY all the power of the entire battery, but it isn't able to LEAVE the starter. Therefore the starter case will be at +12v when in "start" mode, not at 0.00 volts as it should [always] be. Checking voltage drops with a meter finds faults like this.

MDchanic

All good points, Octania.

None of the several engines I've bought over the past couple of years has had one, so I bought one from a member when I was playing with the starter, and I'm glad I did.

I must ask one question, though, which is:
I spent many years playing with cars from that other Division that begins with a "C," and, as far as I ever saw, they do not use any kind of starter brace or other connection between the motor housing and the block (I believe this is true of Olds from the mid-seventies on, as well).
I don't dispute the utility of using the brace, but do you think that the engineers intended it as a ground when they designed it, or only as a structural support?
Since many millions of cars were made without any brace by the other Divisions over the years, and those cars do not have a reputation for needing extra grounding, do you see the strap as absolutely essential, or as a nice extra?

- Eric

White_Knuckles

Hold the Bold font for a second. The crimped connector is fine for the purpose of the #10 wire's intended load. The only compromise is exposure, so you may tape over it or use heat shrink tubing if you're concerned about future corrosion.

As oldscutlass stated, the concern is that it may have become an alternate ground path to the starter circuit. Should you open that connection and the problem reoccurs, use a single, #6 jumper cable clamping from a known bare metal ground point (such as the alternator bracket) to the neg. batt. post. If the car starts with the jumper, you may have a partial ground on the block side so when the #10 is added, a completed ground path occurs. That would explain why the small conductor is not melting on start condition, it's splitting the ground load. Defiantly not correct even though it may seem fine.