wolfman98

I put this in electrical cause I believe it to be that kind of a problem. I have nothing at the key anymore when I try to turn it over. It will do nothing with a boost and the battery has been fully charged. When this problem began I heard a cackling sound when turning it over but that stopped after I tried to boost it and I was just getting a click. Now i get no sound at all. My first instinct is the solenoid at the starter so I crawled under it and managed to cross the solenoid with a screwdriver and it rolled over no problem. Still nothing at the key. All I can think of doing is to test light it to see where it's losing juice or where it stops. Does anyone know if there is an inline fuse on this car. It's a 69 olds 98 convertible 455.

Yellowstatue

There's about a 10 guage wire going from the battery to the horn relay and junction block...check that...it then feeds the tail lamps fuse buss and the ignition switch and the main head lamp switch...you have a bad connection lurking in there somewhere... possibly in the firewall connector block--not easy to get at without removing the inner fender liner

wolfman98

Not sure if the bad connection would be there because all the lights work and the horn works as well which is at that relay. Possible at the firewall or ignition?

Lady72nRob71

Like it was laughing at you???

Witches in machines are common I think...


So do the gauges or idiot lights do anything when you turn to the start position?
What happens when you are in the run postion? Radio or turn signals work? How about reverse lights? If the latter does not work then the neutral safety switch may need adjustment.

If all else seems normal, you will need to check voltage at the ignition switch (purple wires) and go frm there.

Barry Jones

maybe the fusible link down by the starter?

wolfman98

Everything works Rob , the idiot lights come on when I turn the key to start but the starter is silent , not even a click anymore yet it will turn over if I crawl under it and cross the solenoid to battery cable with a screwdriver. I can start it that way but would have to carry a hydraulic jack in the car and that would be a pain. Must be from the ignition to the starter?

Lady72nRob71

What terminals are you shorting to make the starter turn?
If the solenoid to hot, then you have an open between ignition switch to starter solenoid.

Find big purple wire on ignition switch and check voltage to ground with key in start position. Should be 12V. Trace wire to neutral safety switch (if you have it).
If nothing from ingnition switch, unplug the connector and check for burning or pitting. If clean, ignition switch could be bad.

wolfman98

I will try that this weekend to see if it is between ignition and solenoid.

wolfman98

So I tested the ignition to see where I am losing power and found that the purple wire from the ignition to the neutral switch is ok and the purple wire from the neutral switch to the solenoid lights up when the key is turned to start. I would assume from the process of elimination that the problem is in the solenoid and I will have to replace it which means the starter as well.

Lady72nRob71

Sounds logical to me.
What terminals did you short on the starter to make it crank?

Yellowstatue

Purple to Big Red!! If you short it out and it cranks then the purple wire must have a problem??

Lady72nRob71

That is what I am suggesting... Check the purple wire's connection where it reaches the starter. Perhaps the connection there is loose or corroded, since it is located in a hostile environment.
I would hate for anyone to replace a starter that might not be bad.

wolfman98

No not purple to big red, but little red to big red. There is power in the purple wire right down to the solenoid yet the solenoid will not engage even though the test light lights up when the key is turned. That's why I figure it's a bad solenoid. I will find out todat cause I ordered a new one

Lady72nRob71

Bummer - I was hoping it would be an easier fix.
Sounds like the new solenoid should cure it though!

citcapp

You can just replace the solenoid. You do not have to replace the starter too. Another thing you can do is rebuild the solenoid.

Just take it apart flip the copper disc over (it will be pitted on only one side. clean up the terminal contact and its as good as new. Used to do this all the time on old cars.

wolfman98

can't just buy a solenoid as far as I know , it comes as starter/solenoid combo at least the places I tried so i got the whole unit then discovered the ignition key had been left on so the battery was completely dead. it's on trickle charge til tomorrow when I will try it.

cutlassgal

Wolfie.... you're up late tonight! How are you feeling?

wolfman98

No not late for me as I don't sleep well. I guess I am getting better though the neck still bothers me. There are a couple of places I can't move my neck without lots of pain. looking up really sucks and looking to the right? Will be 3 weeks thursday so lots of time to improve.
on a lighter note i got lots of nice flower pics but wish I could figure out how to insert into the message rather than attach.

Lady72nRob71

There is a chance the battery will not recover from a complete run-down, epecially if more than a few years old.
This happened with my Caddy 5 years ago when I left the key on - it was deader than dead.
I tried to jump it with the 86 and killed that one also (5 year old battery.)
Luckily I had one more car to use, which brought back two new batteries.

Just a heads up...

wolfman98

well it took a charge but still nothing at the key. Not a friggin sound. I have no idea what it could be now?????

Yellowstatue

Well, I guess several of us are going to have to come over there and solve this mystery for you....You cover the cost of the flight and beverages at Tim's...

wolfman98

ya sure drive down though it's not that far. I discovered that while the key is left in the on position the wire that comes from the firewall and goes to the coil gets seriously hot. so hot that it started smoking cause it was wrapped up with some other wires and taped up and it started smoking. Now there is a wire that comes off the same terminal of the coil and goes to the solenoid but that does not get hot? I checked out the wire and see no short so it may be on the inside? have to see if it goes to the fusebox and is there a short there? and would this prevent the car from turning over? It's not the neutral switch cause I have power at the solenoid and power from the battery but it won't crank?

Lady72nRob71

I am bummed out as much as you are. I hate electrical mysteries like this!
Last thing i can think of is that you had used a test light to check for voltage at the solenoid. I am wondering now if you are getting full 12V there or something less...
You know anyone with a voltmeter you could borrow?

The hot coil wire seems to be somewhat normal but the smoke part does not seem so. Your points might be burned now, too. This happens when points equipped cars are left in RUN with the engine stopped - coil is getting continuous current, rather than pulsed. For all these tests, just disconnect the coil. You are just trying to get the starter motor to turn.

The wire from coil to starter gives the coil 12V at crank to improve starting. Otherwise, the coil gets only about 9ish from the other resistor wire. This is just the design.

wolfman98

The funny thing is that I disconnected the wire from the coil and turned the key to the on position and the wire was getting hot. So hot you can't touch it.?

wolfman98

I will borrow a voltmeter today but I am assuming that is not going to be the problem. I have a guage in the car and it reads 12.5 when I turn the key on.

citcapp

Have you checked the neutral safety switch? It might have the contacts stuck in the open position

Lady72nRob71

I assumed you disconnected the wire from the coil to starter.
You need to disconnect the + one from coil to ignition switch (that's the one that will get hot (normally).

agtw31

my brother had the same exact problem in his cutlass

just put a new starter/solenoid in,and it fired right up

wolfman98

problem has been solved. A mechanic friend of mine came over and we found what must have been causing the problem. One was a wire that went from the horn relay to nowhere , just ended but was hot. possibly at one time was for power antenna? anyway it was making contact with the the coil wire up close to the firewall. never noticed cause they were under wraps at that spot.the neutral wire upon close inspection had a bare spot that I did not see cause it was on the backside of the wire and when it was hooked up to the solenpoid would rub up against the firewall. So we changed one wire and fixed up the other plus removed the hot wire to nowhere and it fired right up.

Lady72nRob71

Sounds like several less common issues, some hidden.
Glad you got it fixed now though.
If that starter was original (or replaced LONG ago), then it might have needed replacing soon anyway.
No get out there, drop the top, and cruise!

citcapp

Great news. Electrical demons can be a bi#*h to find and fix