Was at Indy H/OCA nationals and I have observed a hot start problem, which is a restart shortly after a long drive, including sitting in the sun. Doesn't happen all the time, I had three issues of it with approx 7 hot starts over the weekend.

Vehicle is 72 H/O, 455, rebuilt correct starter in '22, rebuilt to the super coil windings, with wide heat shield / bracket. Battery is 2022 Duralast Gold with like 900 CCA. I may not have had the negative battery cable perfectly on as I detach it when storing the car, although I think it was fine.

When cold, starter spins high and fast, when hot, starter spins the same high and fast. When this issue occurred, it went click and a huhh noise for a split second. After a try or two, it will spin high and fast like normal and start like normal.

I believe I need to check both battery connections at the battery, the other ends of the cables for connection, and all connections on the purple wire. I think I can put another terminal on that purple wire, run it near the battery and put a voltmeter from batt pos to S on solenoid and see a voltage difference meaning what I am losing to the solenoid.

 

can you describe the huhh noise a bit better?

 

Sure. In fact, I'll video it sometime.

Ok, since it's a super coil wound starter with a big battery, it really spins high when it starts. That's not the sound.
It is also not the noise it makes with no power at all, like battery disconnected, which is to say no noise at all.
I believe it has clicked once although ambient may have been loud enough I didn't hear the huhh noise.

The huhh noise is like imagine a really low almost dead battery starting a car in the winter where it turns over really slowly, but it is only the first quarter second of that, then nothing.

It does NOT turn over slowly, it either turns over normal style (fast) or does not move at all, other than this huhh noise. It will then start after a couple more attempts normally. Once it goes, it starts.

Unrelated, the car always seems to take about 2 seconds of the starter turning over to start. It's not like my Chevy which starts almost instantaneously.

I have the negative battery connection off now. I will make sure it is on tight when I go drive here soon to get video.

Last question: do these things sap current? I would like to use one like I do on another car to avoid taking the cable off each time I store it.

 

I wonder if there is a bad spot on the armature, and your issue occurs only when the brushes are sitting on that bad spot.

 

Maybe a broken or weak spring(s) on any of the brush holder assemblies? The springs should hold the brushes firmly against the commutator.

 

It could be. I did have the thing rebuilt 2 years ago and it has started probably 100 times since then.

 

John - I think I know that "huhh" noise you're talking about. Is it like the sound you hear when you get an over voltage (maybe amperage) condition on a device? Is it like that sound you hear emanating from a high voltage utility pole transformer when it spikes?

 

First guess would be a ground problem. Could be at the battery, block, starter, or even the starter internals. I assume there is no paint on any of the ground connections. I'll wait for the video to hear it. If possible, include a couple of shots of the starter.

 

Check the obvious first but if nothing jumps at you as being the problem, look at the contact disc in the solenoid for burnt spots. Sometimes the disc can be turned over to use the other side of it if it is damaged.

 

X2 on voltage drops in the solenoid. The starter may have been rebuilt, but a lot of the new replacement parts are crap. For example, is this a correct solenoid for the high torque starter with the long post, or the generic replacement solenoid with the short post and a spacer for use on high-torque starters?

 

Looks correct to me. This is the new and the old one. I may want to clean up all the connections.

 

I am going with a solenoid going bad. It has been a loing time since I have had one go bad but I remember they usually start offf with the occasional click and then get worse. As Joe mentioned, just because it is new does not mean it is not crap.

 

I can certainly pull it and look at it.

 

Hey John - This may even be your/our OEM GM starter. This guy does a great job if you're inclined to review it.

 

John:

I doubt you can look at a solenoid and tell if is bad. If you have an extra just change it out and see what it does. That is the first thing I would do.

 

Get a voltmeter. Put the positive probe of the meter on the positive post of the battery. Put the NEGATIVE probe of the meter on the battery cable post on the starter. Crank the engine while looking at the meter. Whatever the meter reads is the voltage lost in the cable and connections.

Do the same thing on the negative cable, positive probe on the negative cable, other probe on the engine block. Make sure the block is clean at the probe contact point.

Obviously the lower the better, but anything over a volt or so needs to be corrected. Things like undersized cables, corrosion inside the battery cable ends, poor connections, etc.

 

To bump this, is there a preferred solenoid for hi torque, or the super torque, applications?

 

My parts manual calls this a switch and says 1114458 for everything.

 

Back in the 80s I worked at a NAPA store and there was a Heavy Duty solenoid, which I used on my car. Dunno if that version is still available or not.

edit:
I just searched the NAPA site and they still carry the HD solenoid in the Echlin line: part number STH107.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHS...&ppid=ECHST124

 

Cool. I ordered one.

So, 1114458 is superceding everything including 111456.

I'll drop the starter, replace the solenoid, and check every damn connection I can find. It's a bitch, but, fortunately, the exhaust comes apart ok so it's just a few hours of working like a prostitute.

 

You have probably already done this. but… upgrade your batt cables to 1.0 gauge cable. I did this to my car(Cutlass S 455) and all of the hot start issues vanished.

 

I may do that. I think B&H will do custom ones. I could say this product, but with 1 gauge wire.

 

On your back, with your legs in the air?

 

Pretty much. I need a lift.

 

Still need a lift. Starter on floor. Echlin solenoid on. Previous one was Accumax; I have no data on their quality.

 

After running the car for a couple days, it starts better at hot. I've done 7 hot starts, 5 were good, 2 were acceptable.

Previously, it did not go at all, or it may have gone whuh quietly. The gen light would go out. The two worst ones now, it turned over slowly "whuh.....whuhwhuh BOOM" and did start both times. I am happy with a successful start each time, it can sound dumb if it wants to.

I foresee new cables and engine and dash harness in this things future.

 

New 1/0 (+) & (-) battery cables & starter wires should be 1st in line.

 

On further thought. I believe I was having a solenoid issue and I believe that is fixed.

The slow cranks are another issue to be fixed with wiring at a later date.

I have read that hot starting and getting nothing is solenoid. Getting less than enthusiastic is wiring, either in or out of the starter.

 

I had heard that it was header/exhaust manifold placement with regard to proximity to the starter.

 

I think you are correct. I would say: it is header/exhaust manifold placement with proximity to starter and wiring acting upon the existing condition of that equipment. As I have a rewound starter, a new solenoid, a factory heat shield bracket and manifolds, it seems the only direction is to (eventually) replace wiring. I may do a whole harness replacement on engine and dash and battery cable at some point.

 

Well, at least it starts reliably now. Slow cranking is irritating but it's better than being left stranded. You might consider wrapping the headers, if you have them -- can't remember.

 

stock manifolds.

Yes, it was not a bad start ever, just not perfect.

 

Root cause of solenoids going bad is heat. This heat is the result of increased resistance & incorrect voltage to/from starter. Replace your 52 year old wires beginning w/ the ground side battery>block cable, battery to starter solenoid & each wire to the starter. Replace your engine head ground terminal to firewall. Best to do it now as it is the BEST safeguard for protecting the starting circuit.

 

I'd think the exhaust pipe being less than 2" away is the main heat source.

 

Perhaps if the car sits in one spot 8 hrs/day seven days/week in a closed storage container. I disagree w/ you though. I say it's the result of metallic bonding degradation over time most often the result of 52 years of moisture.

 

I would say that exhaust pipe adjacent to the manifold, with 1100F gases flowing the entire time the engine is running, is a more impactful heat source. I back this up with my experience with hot start issues that were resolved by changing the solenoid and continued use of the existing wiring.