I changed my engine over to a rebuilt 350 Olds engine but now I can only start it by jumping the solenoid after which it runs fine.

Before I did this the electrics were perfect ... stupid is, stupid does!!!

Starter 'S' wire gets no juice, headlights don't work and fuel gauge is maxed out. Sounds like a ground issue, before I head to an expert thought I might get some tips here. Have read quite a few of the posts here but my issue is not quite the same as 'normal'.

What I have done:

• have mini starter so added a solenoid on the inner mudguard near the cruise control box.
• moved the wiring from the main stud of starter to the battery feed side and put the starter S wire to the solenoid trigger stud. Other stud goes to starter.
• cleaned up the existing wiring and while doing noted that it had been pretty badly cut and joined over the years.
• Changed solenoid as it was faulty I think, passing 12v through both studs without any trigger

Fixes/Tests attempted :

• pulled the NSS connector and with positive battery on one jumper wire, placed the other end on the connectors in the NSS (one at a time) - nothing happened.
• pulled the fuel guage wire in trunk and earthed it and the gauge went back to empty
• Fuses and fusible links look fine - is there one up inside the area around the steering column?

Sorry for the long post, this is really taking too long to solve, appreciate any extra thoughts?

Graeme

 

The stock starter should have had two fusible link power wires going to battery terminal post on the starter. Did you move these to the battery terminal post on the new Ferd solenoid? If not, you won't get any power to the rest of the car. This is a good reason not to add the unneeded Ferd solenoid.

 

Check your connections as Joe said.

The basic wiring for the remote solenoid should look like this picture. Don't wire the battery-to-starter cable through the remote solenoid. Use the remote only to switch the Start signal, using it as a relay to cut out the lengthy GM solenoid signal wire. This will eliminate the hot-start problem when your starter only clicks.

Connect the GM starter wire (usually heavy purple) to the remote solenoid S terminal. The remote solenoid I terminal is used on cars with points ignition.

 

I prefer this method, disregard the R terminal.


You need to see where your not getting voltage. If your fenderwell is plastic, did you run a ground wire to a solenoid mounting screw?

 

You all are missing the point. If the OP simply wired the Ferd relay in series with the battery cable going to the starter, that means there is no power going to the two fusible links that power the rest of the car and thus no power on the purple START circuit. He has to move those two wires from the original starter to the hot side of the Ferd relay. As noted above, if one simply uses the Ferd relay to bypass the circuitous GM start circuit, then that is not necessary, but it is also a real waste of a high current relay for a low current circuit.

 

To whom are you referring? I stated the OP needs to find where the missing voltage drops off. I agree with your reference to VC455's drawing, I would just use a 30A relay in place of the Ford starter relay. The wire that feeds the ignition switch and then powers the purple wire should not have a fusible link in it. As you stated, it may not be hooked up correctly leading to the power loss and the other wires not connected properly would also cause the headlights to be inop. Probably need to be relocated to the hot side of the Ford relay.

 

Your diagram shows the relay in series in the battery positive cable. This is the problem with the way a 1977 is wired.

 

I edited my last post before you posted this.

 

Not as of 12:50...

 

No, post #6, I agree on the wires to the starter post, they need to be relocated to the hot side of the Ford relay. Which I also edited in.

 

Agreed. Use only if you already have the high-current relay. I use a simple 50A ice-cube relay for the purple wire signal.

 

Graeme said he was running a mini-starter. If it is a permanent magnet starter, the jumper wire from S to B risks electrical feedback from the starter to the solenoid.

That will keep the solenoid engaged while the engine is running. This will destroy the starter.

Best not to use the jumper unless you know exactly the type of starter being used.

 

I'm not sure the extra relay is necessary anyway. Yes, worn contacts in the START circuit can drop voltage, but the relay is just a bandaid covering up the underlying problem and adding new and creative failure modes.

 

The jumper and the large battery cable only have voltage when the Ford relay is energized, when the relay disengages so does the power. There is 0 chance of feedback through the wiring.

 

A permanent magnet starter can act as a generator when it is turning. When the Ford relay cuts battery current to the starter solenoid, the starter generates current that keeps the solenoid operating. This current flows through the jumper wire.

 

Thanks everyone for the feedback, really appreciated.

I will go through your suggestions tonight and see what I have missed, something simple I'm sure!

As I am in Australia, I will be on 12 hour delay or more until I can report back.

Graeme

 

I checked my work:

• same setup and OldCutlass posted
• as Joe mentioned, main H/D wires from starter stud to go to battery side of solenoid - they are. I lengthend them and there were 2 fusible links which seem ok, I guess they are since engine runs.
• engine starts and runs with a jumper over the solenoid on mudguard which is well earthed
• headlights, fuel gauge still not working

I will check the connections on weekend to the stud on firewall - and trace them back to NSS etc.

Thanks all.
Graeme

 

x2

 

I guess I'm still not 100% sure how you have this wired. Can you post a photo?

 

While they say this can happen, I've never witnessed it. I've been using mini starters wired through a Ford solenoid for decades with no issues.

 

Eric,
Even today, not every mini starter is a permanent magnet type. The genre didn't come into being until around 1990 and they were only used on small engines at that time. About 15 years ago a few makers began supplying them for our old, large engines.
You're not wrong. I'm just pointing out an additional factor that people need to be aware of.
Gary

 

Yes, standby, 12+ hours ahead of you guys, will post up tonight Joe.

 

Here are a few images, was late and freezing in the garage. The solenoid is pretty basic, does not activate the S wire yet but if I switch on ignition and jump from S to positive side of solenoid, engine starts and runs. Earths look fine, don't need massive cables there.

The other shot I have stripped most of the tape off the wires there, you can see the horn relay and wires heading down to it. Tomorrow I will remove all those wires and check for continuity and clean the connections up.

Fuel gauge maxes out still, seems to be an earth issue I feel.

Sorry about quality. Left post is the battery positive and S wire is connected on right post. Just the way it is mounted.

 

See post 5

 

Thanks - yes that is sorted, sorry, the image does not show it and I forgot to mention. Wires with fusible links were extended and connected to the hot side of the solenoid. Brake/indicator/interior lights all work when engine is off but ignition on. But I am going to test all the wires again and make sure there are no breaks.

 

Just so we're clear, the wire FROM the battery connects to the RH post in this photo, correct?

And the wire to the S terminal should be the purple wire from the ignition switch that runs through the neutral safety switch. Have you confirmed that there is power at the NSS on both purple terminals when the key is in the START postion?

 

Hi Joe and other friends,

Due to the location of the air filter pipe I looped the Positive wire under solenoid so it is the left connection in image. The wires that have fusible links etc including the wire that was connected to the original starter solenoid S post, were moved to the remote solenoid and the orange wire is connected to the S terminal (orange). Colours are somewhat unreliable, that orange wire you see changes colours in a few places, some fairly average joins as I've found when removing the insulation.

I did check the NSS Joe, pulled the connector and using a jumper with one end connected to a good positive, put on one terminal at a time in connector. I believe it should have caused the solenoid to at least click but nothing.

Thanks all for sticking with me on this, probably beyond my pay grade and knowledge now!

Graeme

 

Apparently you don't have continuity in the wire from the NSS to the S terminal of the solenoid. Use a test light to find the break.

 

On it now Joe - will report back a bit later today. 11:30 AM here now so have a few hours of light left.

Graeme

 

Hi All,

Pulled all the new electrical wire harness tape off in the engine bay and voila....found the damned problem.

Because the wiring has so many joins and it is a bit faded in spots I had wired the (S)tart wire to + post on solenoid and the other wire which was meant to go to positive, to the S lug on solenoid. Ok, I am a ******** but with your assistance I am moving again now. ;-) Have not tried to start it yet, need to finish up the soldering - don't have the energy at the moment, had Covid a few weeks ago so will do tomorrow.

Thanks again.

Luckily I kept the old connectors from the original starter motor, colours did not match too well at all, pink to S and black, brown to main post. They changed colours at the fusible links!

I may have to consider a rewire soon.

 

All good now, started first go from the ignition key. Thanks all.

 

Glad you got it.