StarGeneral

Recently bought this 1965 Delta 88 and would love some help and second opinions on these issues I new to working on cars so you will have to baby talk me.

So here's the story:

Parked it at work for two hours, heavy downpour ensued. When I came back, Heater, Windshield wipers, and turn signals no longer worked.

Let it sit in garage for several days. No difference..
Today I tried to start the car again so I could go get my battery tested.
Well the car wouldn't start! wouldn't even crank!

So I decided to replace the battery.

Did not help. Still no noise from engine compartment when starting.
Had friend's dad take a look at it. We took starter out, took it to Napa, tested it, they said solenoid and everything was fine. So now we think that the problem is the ignition switch....

I don't know if the windshield wipers/ heater/ turn signals all going out at once has anything to do with it, but I really just need to get it running again at least. Any advice will be GREATLY appreciated! thanks

Oldsmaniac

Well dont just go out and replace parts. Get yourself a cheap volt meter or test light and check for power. Start checking things like lights that work with or without the key on.... then check for power to things with the key in the on position such as power to coil. It could be the ignition switch, maybe the neutral safety switch or maybe just bad connections at junction block. You have to check things out and it should not be too hard on that 65.

MDchanic

I'd clean the battery terminals first, even if they don't look bad.

The need to be shiny, not dull grey.

Does the ground wire go directly to the engine, like it should?

- Eric

Lady72nRob71

Give a gentle tug at the 4 battery cable ends. If one pops off, then thats the problem.
Look for wiring under hood that could collect water during a rain. If there is, do the gentle tug test on those. Sounds like a bad connection somewhere, particularly at the junction block.

BTW, WELCOME!

StarGeneral

Ok, so update to answer some of your questions.

Yes the battery terminals are clean, the battery is brand new and they are shiny. The ground cable goes from the negative cable to the body.

I will try to buy a cheap test meter or something and check wires tomorrow.

On a positive note, I fiddled with the ignition switch and got the windshield wipers working(?) but the car still wont start. No idea why the windshield wipers suddenly work though.

Will keep you posted on what happens tomorrow, thanks for your quick replies

Lady72nRob71

The neg cable should go right to the engine block.
There should be some extra smaller straps that connect the block to the chassis.
If the neg cable is attached to the chassis and not the block, then I suspect the smaller chassis engine to chassis straps/cables have opened up from excess current draw from the starter.
It IS possible the ignition switch could have badd contacts in it.

StarGeneral

On a side note, I would like to know if someone can identify this part of my car and what it does, as it clicks each time I turn the key from the ignition position to the off position:





thank you!

MDchanic

No one would complain about bigger pictures, but it looks like the voltage regulator to me.

You need to get a Chassis Service Manual right away and give it a real good look-through from cover to cover.

- Eric

jaunty75

The full set of '65 Olds Chassis Service Manuals can be viewed at Wildaboutcarsonline.com. Free to register.

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...plate.cgi?id=8

Lady72nRob71

Yep, thats the voltage regulator. It would not be causing the no-power issue that you are having, though...

StarGeneral

Well, gentlemen, after disconnecting and re-connecting some wires, and tugging on some cables behind the dash lightly, the car starts fine and all things that stopped working that night have started working again!

Many thanks for the help, and for the link to the service manuals, I'm sure those will come in handy!

MDchanic

The WildAboutCars site is an invaluable resource, but you should pick up a copy of the paper manual, too - there's nothing like thumbing through an actual book to help acquaint you with the car.

- Eric

StarGeneral

Well, unfortunately, the car did not start this morning.

It acted like before I fixed it. After turning the key a few times in futility,
I noticed smoke coming from the keyhole and the smell of burning plastic!

So I stuck my head under there with a flashlight, and Im pretty sure I saw a bit of melted plastic on the plug which plugs into the back of the ignition switch. I will poke around after school to verify this. If it is the plug, would this indicate a faulty ignition switch? or faulty wiring?

MDchanic

Only way to tell is to take it apart and check it out.

I'd start with the plug and the connections there, then look at the switch itself, but you could have a short somewhere else that's pulling too much current through the switch, like maybe points that aren't opening, or an (unlikely) internal short in the coil. Pretty sure everything else is fused.

- Eric

Lady72nRob71

Time to pull the plug, remove each terminal, and clean them (or replce if too far gone).
Polish up the teminals ont he switch, too. Since you said this was an intermittant problem, you may have had poor connection at the terminals that plug onto the switch. When this happens, they arc, burn, and the contact gets worse. I would say repair the connections and go from there.

Attend Rob's Skule of Terminal Repair first:
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/...tml#post312739
Financial aid is available.......

StarGeneral

I told my parents about the smoke and now they are scared the car will light on fire, and are insisting that I take it to the mechanic to get the electrical work done "professionally". I dont really like this idea since the whole idea of me getting an old car was so I could learn to do the work on it myself.
I dont really think this guy is going to do any more than poke around with a voltimeter and start replacing things just to troubleshoot....thoughts?

rocketraider

SG, where are you? Someone here may be close enough to give a hand on this.

I'm wary of taking electrical work on an older car to a modern mechanic who is not used to working on them. Too many of them will start hacking wires which you do not want.

I think you possibly have a bad ignition switch which shouldn't be that hard to find, either aftermarket or new old stock. OTOH, it is not unusual to see melted terminal plugs on these year ignition switches. After 45+ years, resistance builds up and causes overload conditions like you're describing.

Go ahead and get your factory service books. There are two- Chassis Service Manual and Body Service Manual. They will be invaluable.

Just curious- what additional electric accessories does this 65 have? Power windows, seat, anything like that?

Oldsmaniac

It seems there is something loose or shorted under the dash since shaking the wires seemed to make things better. Yes there is a possibility of fire if wires are smoking. There is no certainty a "professional" will be able to find the problem and it may be expensive. It may be something simple like a bare wire touching ground under the dash. You should look at it yourself and maybe come up with a simple fix or yes as asked post your location. Someone may be able to help.

MDchanic

Okay, first mistake: NEVER tell your parents ANYTHING.
My son has already mastered this one, and he's only 14.
His bed could be on fire and he'd get up and pee on it to put it out, and I wouldn't know until next week when he'd complain about his sheets smelling bad.

Second mistake: NEVER even think of taking ANYTHING, automotive or otherwise, to a "professional" (unless you need antibiotics for a painful infection). Most "professionals" are little more than chimpanzees in coveralls, and will make the problem worse while vacuuming cash out of your wallet.
Unless you're at the primate level yourself, you can do a better job without them, with just a wiring diagram (Chassis Service Manual) and a little experience and common sense (which we can supplement for you).

The scan quality on the '65 diagram in WildAboutCars is better than average, and you can even read the words, so use that, and the section on "Instrument Panel and Accessories" (12-101) to get started, and just start checking wires and contacts. Type questions to us as you go - there's usually somebody logged on who can at least give you a hint about whatever you run into.

You'll find the problem.

- Eric

StarGeneral

After inspecting the connection between the ignition switch and the main harness, I have found the problem. The plastic "plug" which aligns the terminals and holds them onto the appropriate prongs on the ignition switch is melted around the BATT terminal in such a way that the plug no longer prevents the terminal from slipping around while its in contact with the prong. This would explain the intermittent problems, and why tugging on the harness temporarily solved things. The terminal is slipping slightly and arcing between the ignition switch...

So at this point the only option is to replace that plastic "plug".

I have looked through the electrical section of the appropriate manual (I have hard copies now), and also looked on Fusick for this connector, but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Could anyone assist me in finding a place to order one online or otherwise? I can provide pictures if clarification is needed. Again, thank you.

MDchanic

It's been a few years since I had a pre-'69, and I don't remember the back side of the ignition switch clearly, but I believe you could just replace the individual connectors on the ends of the wires with new ¼" spade females and do without the plastic assembly that aligns them - just be sure to cover each one with shrink tubing to prevent shorts.

Remember, to do a proper job, solder everything and use shrink tubing instead of tape whenever possible.

- Eric

Lady72nRob71

You could possibly get a good used plastic plug and just swap over your good terminals. The bad burned terminals are the ones to be replaced.

I wonder if any other models of that year could have an identical plug you could use...
Is it possible to post a clear picture of the plug?

rocketraider

The 65-66-67 shop books show the same ignition switch wiring layout and plug for all three years, in F85/Cutlass, 88/98 and Toronado. Only difference is Toro switch does not have the green warning lamps ground connection wire that the A/B/C body cars have. The plug, however, seems to be the same.

So, if someone here has a 65-67 Olds parts car of any series with a good ignition switch plug and is willing to part with it, you should be golden.

I generally hate cutting wires, but if they'll do it for you, it might pay you to get the plug and several inches of wire harness. Then splice those to the existing wiring per Rob's terminal repair instructions.

I'd look into replacing the switch itself too since my money says there's some internal problems that contributed to the plug meltdown. You can change out the key cylinder to keep the original keying- the shop book will show you how, as well as how to remove the switch from the dash.

Original Delco-Remy switch part #s from the 1974 parts book:

Group 2.188, p/n 1116661 1965 all, 1964 F85/Cutlass (means you can use a plug from a 64 Cutlass too)

Group 2.188, p/n 1116685, 1966-67 all

Not sure what the difference between 65 and 66 would be unless it's that green grounding wire the Toronado doesn't have. The A/B/C car wiring diagrams show it for those cars all three years 65-67.

I would go for a New Old Stock Delco Remy switch if you can get it, with second choice a new old replacement stock Standard, Filko or Echlin brand switch. I have seen later production aftermarket switches that did not have enough thread on the switch body to start the ignition switch trim ring onto them.

Excellent job of troubleshooting BTW. You'll be old car people before you know it!

Rocket Richard

Yes, nice work with the troubleshooting. At one time I dreaded any electrical problems on my old cars. After spending some time with repair manuals and wiring diagrams I actually learned to enjoy it.

Very glad you did not take this to a mechanic. X2 on Eric's comments.
Let us know how it goes when you are back on the road!

-Rich

MDchanic

... And while on the subject of splicing in plugs from junked cars, you don't need to limit yourself to Olds - any Chev., Pont., or Buick should be the same as well.

- Eric

rocketraider

Eric- don't count on it!

The five Divisions had a lot less commonality back then than in later years. I won't say the plugs won't interchange, but odds are pretty high they're different. The one that really comes to mind is Pontiac as they had an airconditioning compressor cutout contact in their switches and harnesses- it cut power to the compressor clutch in START.

StarGeneral

Ok, so I have some pictures of this plug for you. I am strongly considering just connecting them individually and shrink tubing them, or tightly wrapping them in electric tape, because I do not know how to solder well. But if the opportunity comes to get one of these plugs I will just get a plug instead.

MDchanic

Thanks for the pictures.

Here's what I would do:

Disconnect the battery (you don't want any groovy light shows...).

Remove each terminal from the plug, keeping track of where they connect to the switch (you might want to remove the switch from the dash so you can see it better).
— to remove the terminals, insert a very small screwdriver or similar tool into the notch in the plug on the switch side, depress the little retaining tab, and pull on the wire to pull out the connector from the plug.

With the terminals out, check each one to be sure it's a tight fit on its tab on the switch. If not, squeeze it closed a tiny bit with a pair of pliers. Tiny.

Check each terminal to be sure it's well connected to its wire, especially the one that got hot, and replace it if it isn't (good soldering practice ).

Cover all terminals with shrink tubing (available at Radio Shack if you're desperate).

Reconnect wires to proper terminals.

Reinstall switch.

Drive car.

- Eric

Lady72nRob71

If you are not good or experienced with solding, find a friend who can and reward him with a 12 pack or BBQ dinner, or such. Wiring in high current circuits like the one that is melted MUST be soldered. If not, the connection can fail again, the next time possibly in a worse way. Also, shrink tubing is a must. Tape fails fast under heat, cold, humidity, and vibration.
I have learned this the hard way and do not wish to see others do the same.

Attend Rob's Skule of Terminal Repair if you haven't already:
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/...tml#post312739

StarGeneral

Thank you both for the suggestions. I am contacting some local guys to see if they have this connector on a spare harness and are willing to part with it. If they can't, then I know someone who could solder the terminals for me.

I will let you know how it goes.

MDchanic

Have them show you how to do it, then you can do it from then on .

- Eric

stellar

It looks like you have one offending connector. If a new plug is not available, instead of pulling all the connectors out you can remove the bad wire from the plug, drill the plastic to allow a new female terminal to fit in the plug (about 1/2 way)deep from terminal side and drill the hole a bit larger on the wire end to allow a wire to pass thru easily. It may be big enough already. Take a piece of wire about 6-12 inches long and solder a new female terminal on it. Plug it on to the appropriate male terminal. Be sure the male terminal is clean. You can now slide the length of wire thru the plug and slide a piece of heat shrink over it and then butt connect and solder the new wire to the old wire after cutting the bad terminal off. Slide the heat shrink up and heat. Now you can slide the plug onto the switch and the plug will slide over the wire already connected. Now everything will still be covered by the plastic plug. The new terminal won't be locked in like the others, but there will be protection from any shorts.

StarGeneral

Had a few leads on parts cars I could pull that connector from but could not find it on any of them.

So, tomorrow we will solder the terminals onto the ignition switch and shrink tube each connection to prevent shorts, and do away with the plug.

The reason for this is the ignition switch is not actually original- I have no idea where it came from- because of this, the flanges on the connector do not actually connect to anything....meaning the plug does nothing in the way of securing the terminals to the ignition switch

Glad to put these issues to rest and have my car back on the road again! thanks for all the help and good info, I'm sure I'll be back to tackle more issues when I try to fix the interior lighting, and hook up speakers. Until next time

-Andres

Lady72nRob71

Any possiblilty of getting a correct switch that the plug will actually attach to?

StarGeneral

I could probably order one through a local store, but one of the flanges on the plastic connector is broken. Also they told me they cannot order the plastic plug and that I would need to find one myself. I could always do this in the future, but as it stands, my classic is my only car so I need to have it working asap.

MDchanic

No, Andres, I don't mean to be a buster, but don't solder the connectors to the lugs, just solder the connectors to the wires, then push the connectors onto the lugs.
If they're loose, squeeze them just a little.
Then, when everything fits right, shrink tubing each one.

That way you can replace the switch if you ever need to.

- Eric

rocketraider

DO NOT SOLDER THOSE WIRES TO THE SWITCH!

Use Sta-Kon terminals. Solder the wires to those and then put the Sta-Kons on the switch blades. That way you can disconnect them easily when time comes. There are fully insulated versions available that can keep wires from shorting together.

You say the switch is not original. If the terminal blades on the switch are laid out in same order and orientation as the connectors in the plug, it would almost have to be an original or a replacement. Can you give us a picture of the connector side of the switch?

Even with one of the retainer legs broken, the other two plus friction fit between the terminals should hold the plug in place on the switch body.

You sound like a pretty sharp guy. Don't shortcut your way thru wiring- it's a good way to burn your car to the ground. The long-haulers here have heard me say this many times- if I never have to lay on my back and fix buggered up dash wiring again, it will be too soon. Do it right the first time and be done.

StarGeneral

Haha no worries. Im glad I checked back. I guess I just misunderstood what you guys were trying to tell me. The wires and connectors themselves are great actually, they just don't stay attached to the ignition switch very well. They are just slider terminals exactly like those depicted in robs terminal repair guide. Maybe I can just squeeze them down onto the prongs with a pair of pliers so they don't slide around? and then cover them up so there's no risk of them touching metal?

So...when I shrink tube them, should the shrink tubing be covering the terminal itself and the prong? or were you just talking about shrink tubing in case I needed to solder wires?

oldsguybry

who's gonna buy the 12-pack?

jaunty75

Would this possibly be of any value to StarGeneral?


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123