Update on 12-bolt O-axle gears
October 29th, 2013, 09:21 AM
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Update on 12-bolt O-axle gears
As many of you know,the gears that were available for the 12-bolt O-axle were discontinued when Richmond was bought out by Motive,and have not been available for awhile now.
I spoke with Motive last Friday,October 25th,and the latest update is that production is "supposed" to start around March/April 2014. They will be making the same two ratios as before,3:42 and 3:90.
These will be Italian-made,and in my opinion,great quality,and a nicer gear,compared to the Richmonds.You can also expect the price to be more than they were before.
Hopefully there is truth to the production.
I spoke with Motive last Friday,October 25th,and the latest update is that production is "supposed" to start around March/April 2014. They will be making the same two ratios as before,3:42 and 3:90.
These will be Italian-made,and in my opinion,great quality,and a nicer gear,compared to the Richmonds.You can also expect the price to be more than they were before.
Hopefully there is truth to the production.
Last edited by 507OLDS; October 29th, 2013 at 10:06 AM.
October 29th, 2013, 10:31 AM
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As many of you know,the gears that were available for the 12-bolt O-axle were discontinued when Richmond was bought out by Motive,and have not been available for awhile now.
I spoke with Motive last Friday,October 25th,and the latest update is that production is "supposed" to start around March/April 2014. They will be making the same two ratios as before,3:42 and 3:90.
These will be Italian-made,and in my opinion,great quality,and a nicer gear,compared to the Richmonds.You can also expect the price to be more than they were before.
Hopefully there is truth to the production.
I spoke with Motive last Friday,October 25th,and the latest update is that production is "supposed" to start around March/April 2014. They will be making the same two ratios as before,3:42 and 3:90.
These will be Italian-made,and in my opinion,great quality,and a nicer gear,compared to the Richmonds.You can also expect the price to be more than they were before.
Hopefully there is truth to the production.
October 29th, 2013, 10:42 AM
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Pretty sure they will be the thicker ring gears,for the 3:08/3:23 carriers.
In the past,I installed the Richmond gears on the 588 & 672 carriers by milling .100" off the backside of the ring gears.They were thicker to begin with,and the Richmonds have deeper bolt holes,so no other work was needed.
The Pontiac gears are totally different.
In the past,I installed the Richmond gears on the 588 & 672 carriers by milling .100" off the backside of the ring gears.They were thicker to begin with,and the Richmonds have deeper bolt holes,so no other work was needed.
The Pontiac gears are totally different.
October 29th, 2013, 11:19 AM
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Pretty sure they will be the thicker ring gears,for the 3:08/3:23 carriers.
In the past,I installed the Richmond gears on the 588 & 672 carriers by milling .100" off the backside of the ring gears.They were thicker to begin with,and the Richmonds have deeper bolt holes,so no other work was needed.
The Pontiac gears are totally different.
In the past,I installed the Richmond gears on the 588 & 672 carriers by milling .100" off the backside of the ring gears.They were thicker to begin with,and the Richmonds have deeper bolt holes,so no other work was needed.
The Pontiac gears are totally different.
Just for discussion's sake, do you feel the 588 & 672 carriers make a stronger rear? I'm sure the axles must be part of the equation.
October 29th, 2013, 11:57 AM
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I like to use the factory carriers whenever possible. The reworked Ford units are nice,but the clutches could be better.They are fine for a cruiser or mild street car,but not for serious performance.I can have good clutches made,but then you add $200.00 to the cost of the unit.In some situations,I have had Eaton units remachined,then assembled them with all the good pieces.Again,not budget-minded,but stout.If you already have one of the factory carriers,rebuild it and use that one.
October 29th, 2013, 03:23 PM
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I have a 1969 O type SA 2.78 open rear end will one of the new 3.42's fit in there?\
Checked I guess I have a 673 carrier, will these new 3.42's fit in there?
Checked I guess I have a 673 carrier, will these new 3.42's fit in there?
Last edited by 501Paratrooper; October 29th, 2013 at 03:27 PM.
October 29th, 2013, 05:24 PM
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I've been racing (hard) on the milled 4/10 set 507 Olds built for me and it is holding up just fine. Matter of fact, I "blew out the posi clutches" and the R&P was just fine. Brian furnished me replacement posi clutches AT NO COST to get me back on the track again. He was under no obligation to do so, but he did it any way saying he "wanted me to be happy" and that they shouldnt have not failed!! Brian ( 507 Olds) is Class A - all the way in my book --- give him a try for any of your rear end needs!! ( This is NOT a "paid promotional advertisement" !! LOL
October 29th, 2013, 06:28 PM
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I made that posi as tight as possible,maybe too tight,if there is such a thing,and it cooked a few clutches on the driver's side.I still feel it should not have done that,as I have done hundreds of others,as well as my own like that,and haven't had a problem.Let's see if you can do it again. I knew exactly what he was going to do with that rear,and I built it accordingly. I wouldn't do anything different,if I did it again.
501paratrooper,
You will need a ring gear spacer to use with the 2-series 673 carrier. I can supply a spacer kit,if needed,when the time comes.
I was really hoping they would introduce a 3:73 gear for that rear,but no luck. They already have the programs for the 3:42 and 3:90,so they let it all be.
501paratrooper,
You will need a ring gear spacer to use with the 2-series 673 carrier. I can supply a spacer kit,if needed,when the time comes.
I was really hoping they would introduce a 3:73 gear for that rear,but no luck. They already have the programs for the 3:42 and 3:90,so they let it all be.
October 30th, 2013, 05:25 AM
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DRAG racing
Yes when drag racing A lot - especially with a posi unit you are really pushing your luck. When doing a burn out you have to be very diligent in the water box get both tire equally wet... Start on the water trail edge and heat them till you see smoke then drive it out some and let up on the gas hit the brake. HAVE someone IF YOU CAN keep an eye on the tires if one stops spinning you are tearing up one side of the clutches.
Remember driving on the street turning right will usually wearing the driver side clutch pack slightly more it will always have to travel more distance than a wider left hand turn (IN THIS COUNTRY)
You will ALWAYS expect some disasters while drag racing- That is just part of the sport.
I had the same deal with a Good customer here too He ate the carbon fiber Eaton clutches...DID more racing than he told me he was going to do - But being it only had 1000 street miles and who knows how many track blasts with stick shift ... I warrantied it. BUT told him I could not keep doing this... Gave him the burn out box lecture too.
Good luck and take care out there.
HOPE WE HEAR SOMETHING ON THE OLDS o type gears.
Jim
Remember driving on the street turning right will usually wearing the driver side clutch pack slightly more it will always have to travel more distance than a wider left hand turn (IN THIS COUNTRY)
You will ALWAYS expect some disasters while drag racing- That is just part of the sport.
I had the same deal with a Good customer here too He ate the carbon fiber Eaton clutches...DID more racing than he told me he was going to do - But being it only had 1000 street miles and who knows how many track blasts with stick shift ... I warrantied it. BUT told him I could not keep doing this... Gave him the burn out box lecture too.
Good luck and take care out there.
HOPE WE HEAR SOMETHING ON THE OLDS o type gears.
Jim
October 30th, 2013, 07:29 AM
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Curious.
Steve g
October 30th, 2013, 07:33 AM
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I wonder why that would be. In order for one axle to turn faster (or slower) than the carrier the other axle has to turn slower (or faster) than the carrier by the exact same amount. So regardless of which way you turn, or how often, or how tight you turn, both clutches have to be slipping by the same amount. Can't be any other way.
Curious.
Steve g
Curious.
Steve g
And dont forget what Monzaz said about the fact that your right hand turns are always shorter radius than a left hand turn ( on a two-way street, of course)!!!
Last edited by Chesrown 67 OAI; October 30th, 2013 at 07:36 AM.
October 30th, 2013, 08:22 AM
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Your statement is essentially correct, However, Motoring statistics say you turn right many more times than you turn left ( in USA)!. Just sayin...... And dont forget what Monzaz said about the fact that your right hand turns are always shorter radius than a left hand turn ( on a two-way street, of course)!!!
And dont forget what Monzaz said about the fact that your right hand turns are always shorter radius than a left hand turn ( on a two-way street, of course)!!!It shouldn't matter which way you turn more often or which way has a shorter radius. Both clutches have to slip the same amount in every turn, tight, loose, left, right, forward, backwards. Whatever. If you say in a tight right hand turn the left wheel has to turn 5% faster than the right wheel, the left axle will turn 2.5% faster than the carrier and the right wheel 2.5% slower than the carrier. Both clutches slip the same amount.
Why does one wear more than the other?
Steve
October 30th, 2013, 09:07 AM
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You also have to remember that the passenger side is the natural drive side of the axle.Think of a non-posi.You spin the passenger side.It will always have more load than the left,unless it is a spool.The driver's side movement is dictated by the passenger side.The driver's side clutches will move forward or backward against each other more than the passenger side.
If you have ever seen a US Gear posi unit,they look a lot like an Eaton,but only have clutches on one side.
If you have ever seen a US Gear posi unit,they look a lot like an Eaton,but only have clutches on one side.
October 30th, 2013, 09:18 AM
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You also have to remember that the passenger side is the natural drive side of the axle.Think of a non-posi.You spin the passenger side.It will always have more load than the left,unless it is a spool.The driver's side movement is dictated by the passenger side.The driver's side clutches will move forward or backward against each other more than the passenger side.
If you have ever seen a US Gear posi unit,they look a lot like an Eaton,but only have clutches on one side.
If you have ever seen a US Gear posi unit,they look a lot like an Eaton,but only have clutches on one side.
You're confusing ease of spin with difference in amount of rotation. In a non posi the wheel with the least amount of traction is the one that will spin, not because more power is directed to one wheel. It happens because of the way the weight shifts. Or other circumstances in a situation other than a dry drag strip.
You only need one set of clutches for exactly the reason I'm pointing out. If you hold one axle gear the other one can't take off, the spiders and pins keeps them in sync. And it doesn't matter which one you hold. On manually locked diffs found on rock crawlers, tractors, heavy equipment, the lock is actuated on only one axle gear. You lock one gear to the carrier the other is locked as well. Everything locks up. That's the principle the US gear posi works, and it's a good illustration for how the two axle gears are tied together. Lock one axle, the other is locked. Let one slip, the other has to slip.
Steve g
October 30th, 2013, 11:04 AM
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You just answered your own question. Think about it.
Better yet,once you've looked at a few hundred used posi units,you will notice a similarity.
Can the right side clutches wear? Absolutely,but more often than not,the left side has more.
Better yet,once you've looked at a few hundred used posi units,you will notice a similarity.
Can the right side clutches wear? Absolutely,but more often than not,the left side has more.
October 30th, 2013, 12:54 PM
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How many times you might have noticed the similarity doesn't answer the question of the why. You're right tho, I've never seen it in all the ones I've had apart.
Still trying to figure out how the drivers side axle is the "natural" drive side. Both axles have exactly the same amount of torque to them. Think about that. In order for the spider to drive one axle gear it has to push back on the other axle gear. The force is the same in both directions. High school physics.
Steve g
November 7th, 2013, 04:18 AM
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Clutches
Don't see how you find that answers the question. Whatever one clutch slips, the other has to slip the exact same amount. If it didn't the axle would "gear up" and accelerate the vehicle. If both clutches are slipping the exact same amount why does one wear more than the other? That's the question. The Eaton posi throws the whole thing into question even more. How does one side wear more than the other on a posi with clutches on only one side? All they're doing is stacking all the clutchs in one place. Doesn't matter which side they put them on. You could even put the clutches on the spiders and it would do the same thing.
How many times you might have noticed the similarity doesn't answer the question of the why. You're right tho, I've never seen it in all the ones I've had apart.
Still trying to figure out how the drivers side axle is the "natural" drive side. Both axles have exactly the same amount of torque to them. Think about that. In order for the spider to drive one axle gear it has to push back on the other axle gear. The force is the same in both directions. High school physics.
Steve g
How many times you might have noticed the similarity doesn't answer the question of the why. You're right tho, I've never seen it in all the ones I've had apart.
Still trying to figure out how the drivers side axle is the "natural" drive side. Both axles have exactly the same amount of torque to them. Think about that. In order for the spider to drive one axle gear it has to push back on the other axle gear. The force is the same in both directions. High school physics.
Steve g
One side clutch packs will have to do double duty. It is just a fact. THINGS multiply when the clutch pack starts to get sloppy also ESPECIALLY drag racing when one tire lets loose. It does have to do with default and weight transfer also. The direct the spiders gears spin pins those clutches tighter on the one side and cause them to over heat while the other side is slightly looser getting some oil between the clutches.... I have seen one side clutch pack melted fused together. If you take apart as many posi units as we do you will see it is just the way it is....NO MATTER what the reason, it is what it is.
Jim
November 7th, 2013, 06:51 AM
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The exact reason trac lock ford posi units are JUNK. One side clutch packs will have to do double duty. It is just a fact.
THINGS multiply when the clutch pack starts to get sloppy also ESPECIALLY drag racing when one tire lets loose. It does have to do with default and weight transfer also. The direct the spiders gears spin pins those clutches tighter on the one side and cause them to over heat while the other side is slightly looser getting some oil between the clutches.... I have seen one side clutch pack melted fused together. If you take apart as many posi units as we do you will see it is just the way it is....NO MATTER what the reason, it is what it is.
Jim
One side clutch packs will have to do double duty. It is just a fact. THINGS multiply when the clutch pack starts to get sloppy also ESPECIALLY drag racing when one tire lets loose. It does have to do with default and weight transfer also. The direct the spiders gears spin pins those clutches tighter on the one side and cause them to over heat while the other side is slightly looser getting some oil between the clutches.... I have seen one side clutch pack melted fused together. If you take apart as many posi units as we do you will see it is just the way it is....NO MATTER what the reason, it is what it is.
Jim
I don't know what you mean by "default", but the weight transfer just puts more strain on the clutches, increasing the likelihood that they (both) will slip.
The key being, I don't care which wheel or why it does it or what you're doing when it happens, one clutch can not slip any more than the other. They are locked together by the spider. One can not slip more than the other and it's exactly the reason that a one clutch pack posi does the same job as a two clutch pac posi. All the spiders and axle gears are all tied together. No one piece can move without all of them moving and the posi, wherever you locate it, simply binds it all to the carrier.
What is this default you're talking about?
Steve g
November 8th, 2013, 05:08 AM
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????
I'm sure it does happen. And one side getting more oil makes a lot more sense than the number of right turns versus left turns. The one wheel letting loose doesn't explain it either. When one wheel lets loose and that clutch slips, the other side clutch has to slip exactly the same amount in the opposite direction.
I don't know what you mean by "default", but the weight transfer just puts more strain on the clutches, increasing the likelihood that they (both) will slip.
The key being, I don't care which wheel or why it does it or what you're doing when it happens, one clutch can not slip any more than the other. They are locked together by the spider. One can not slip more than the other and it's exactly the reason that a one clutch pack posi does the same job as a two clutch pac posi. All the spiders and axle gears are all tied together. No one piece can move without all of them moving and the posi, wherever you locate it, simply binds it all to the carrier.
What is this default you're talking about?
Steve g
I don't know what you mean by "default", but the weight transfer just puts more strain on the clutches, increasing the likelihood that they (both) will slip.
The key being, I don't care which wheel or why it does it or what you're doing when it happens, one clutch can not slip any more than the other. They are locked together by the spider. One can not slip more than the other and it's exactly the reason that a one clutch pack posi does the same job as a two clutch pac posi. All the spiders and axle gears are all tied together. No one piece can move without all of them moving and the posi, wherever you locate it, simply binds it all to the carrier.
What is this default you're talking about?
Steve g
I can not explain this any further- REMEMBER the carrier is spinning also the clutches on the axle are NOT connected to the carrier case directly.... The clutches connected to the carrier are not directly connected to the side gear...they slide between each other with nothing more than friction connecting the two. The planyery gears are an amazing set-up and do neat stuff when different power is applied to either side.
LOOK at the open differential NON POSI- HOW can you spin one tire on a burn out and the other the other tire does nothing?????? Spider gears are connected??? RIGHT? explain that?
NOW look at the posi SAME planetary gears. right? Just the clutches are the difference. DO you get it now? PLEASE I hope so. I just can not explain it any more.... JUST accept that the left tire can and will spin at a different rate and or distance than the right tire...and visa versa... SPIDER planetary gears do this. PERIOD.
Sorry it is the morning- did not mean to go off on the thread...
if this video does not explain it- then you will never get it.
GREAT VIDEO... I have it on my site. Video -
Last edited by monzaz; November 8th, 2013 at 05:14 AM.
November 8th, 2013, 06:59 AM
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In order to explain it you would have to understand it. I understand it completely. You guys tell me, no show me, how one clutch can slip without the one on the other side slipping the same amount in the opposite direction.
Think about what you just said Jim. One wheel spinning and the other doing nothing. It's not doing nothing. It's sitting still but the carrier is turning around it isn't it? That clutch on the stationary wheel is trying to hold it to the carrier that's still spinning forward. Now follow me here and play your video if you need to. The axle gear on the stationary wheel is turning relative to the carrier. It's turning the spider which in turn is turning the other axle gear. If one axle is held stationary the other axle is being spun at twice the speed of the carrier. So that clutch is slipping as well.
How can the spinning wheel be turning at the same speed as the carrier (clutch not slipping) while the other clutch is slipping and turning it's axle gear relative to the carrier. You perception would have to be only clutches, without any spider or axle gears in order for one to slip and the other to rotate at the same speed as the carrier.
Go out in the shop and try this. Take a 3:1 axle. Turn the pinion 3 revolutions and keep both wheels turning together. How far did the wheels turn? One revolution. Now set one wheel on the ground and turn the pinion the same 3 revolutions. How far did the wheel off the ground travel. In my lab it turned 2 revolutions. Yet the carrier still only turned one revolution. So that means that the spinning wheel turned twice as far(fast) as the carrier, clutch had to slip on that side, and the stationary wheel sat still while the carrier turned one revolution around it, clutch slipped.
Are you guys getting it now? Once you get onto this I'll try to explain why there is no "natural drive" or "default" drive.
Wow.
Steve g
Think about what you just said Jim. One wheel spinning and the other doing nothing. It's not doing nothing. It's sitting still but the carrier is turning around it isn't it? That clutch on the stationary wheel is trying to hold it to the carrier that's still spinning forward. Now follow me here and play your video if you need to. The axle gear on the stationary wheel is turning relative to the carrier. It's turning the spider which in turn is turning the other axle gear. If one axle is held stationary the other axle is being spun at twice the speed of the carrier. So that clutch is slipping as well.
How can the spinning wheel be turning at the same speed as the carrier (clutch not slipping) while the other clutch is slipping and turning it's axle gear relative to the carrier. You perception would have to be only clutches, without any spider or axle gears in order for one to slip and the other to rotate at the same speed as the carrier.
Go out in the shop and try this. Take a 3:1 axle. Turn the pinion 3 revolutions and keep both wheels turning together. How far did the wheels turn? One revolution. Now set one wheel on the ground and turn the pinion the same 3 revolutions. How far did the wheel off the ground travel. In my lab it turned 2 revolutions. Yet the carrier still only turned one revolution. So that means that the spinning wheel turned twice as far(fast) as the carrier, clutch had to slip on that side, and the stationary wheel sat still while the carrier turned one revolution around it, clutch slipped.
Are you guys getting it now? Once you get onto this I'll try to explain why there is no "natural drive" or "default" drive.
Wow.
Steve g
Last edited by Steve g; November 8th, 2013 at 07:03 AM.
November 8th, 2013, 10:07 AM
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????????????????????????????????????
can not do it anymore. I give, I have work rebuilding the differential Just look at the people at the end running on the barrels....
Last edited by monzaz; November 8th, 2013 at 10:56 AM.
November 8th, 2013, 11:42 AM
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I have seen failed posi's, can't say whether they were abused or not. But how many times someone may have seen a failed posi is not an indication that they know why it failed or even how it works. Not anymore than how many times a person has set one up is an assurance they know how to do it right.
I'm not saying you didn't see this happen. I am saying that it didn't happen for the reason you thought it happened, specifically one clutch only slipping while the other held fast to the carrier. I can get behind your earlier speculation about oil to one clutch vs the other. I could also get on side with one clutch having more drag than the other, however that happens. But this thing about more slippage in one clutch than the other, whether it be more right turns, one wheel burnouts, whatever, is simply not a possibility.
I don't have the answer definitively either. If I were a diff specialist I would make it my business to find that out. But I'm just a guy that's held a Journeyman's ticket for almost 40 years that knows how diffs work.
I'm back to the shop as well. I've got a auto trans to finish rebuilding.
Steve g
November 9th, 2013, 07:38 AM
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ok
Here is how it goes.
THE case is one piece, spider gear will stay locked on one side clutch pack and pinion gears the three are spinning with the ring gear carrier and side gear and smaller pinion gear.... ALL spinning... The one tire stop moving the three continue to be locked and the one side gear spins with the axle and clutches that are connected to the side gear THE other side gear is locked with the spinning carrier which the ring is connected to. IT WILL BURN UP THAT SIDE that is NOT spinning the tire.
Hope this explains the burned clutches on one side.
Think about it before quickly answering... The thre side and spider gears are spinning with the case LOCKED. the one spider is not spinning but the carrier case IS.
Take care, Jim
THE case is one piece, spider gear will stay locked on one side clutch pack and pinion gears the three are spinning with the ring gear carrier and side gear and smaller pinion gear.... ALL spinning... The one tire stop moving the three continue to be locked and the one side gear spins with the axle and clutches that are connected to the side gear THE other side gear is locked with the spinning carrier which the ring is connected to. IT WILL BURN UP THAT SIDE that is NOT spinning the tire.
Hope this explains the burned clutches on one side.
Think about it before quickly answering... The thre side and spider gears are spinning with the case LOCKED. the one spider is not spinning but the carrier case IS.
Take care, Jim
November 9th, 2013, 09:10 AM
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Here is how it goes.
THE case is one piece, spider gear will stay locked on one side clutch pack and pinion gears the three are spinning with the ring gear carrier and side gear and smaller pinion gear.... ALL spinning... The one tire stop moving the three continue to be locked and the one side gear spins with the axle and clutches that are connected to the side gear THE other side gear is locked with the spinning carrier which the ring is connected to. IT WILL BURN UP THAT SIDE that is NOT spinning the tire.
Hope this explains the burned clutches on one side.
Think about it before quickly answering... The thre side and spider gears are spinning with the case LOCKED. the one spider is not spinning but the carrier case IS.
Take care, Jim
THE case is one piece, spider gear will stay locked on one side clutch pack and pinion gears the three are spinning with the ring gear carrier and side gear and smaller pinion gear.... ALL spinning... The one tire stop moving the three continue to be locked and the one side gear spins with the axle and clutches that are connected to the side gear THE other side gear is locked with the spinning carrier which the ring is connected to. IT WILL BURN UP THAT SIDE that is NOT spinning the tire.
Hope this explains the burned clutches on one side.
Think about it before quickly answering... The thre side and spider gears are spinning with the case LOCKED. the one spider is not spinning but the carrier case IS.
Take care, Jim
When both axles are spinning at the same speed as the carrier the spiders and axle gears are locked together. Think of a welded up diff as a home made spool. Nothing is turning inside the carrier when both axles are turning the same speed as the carrier. Are we okay this far?
One axle stops turning. The carrier is still turning. That means the carrier is turning around the stationary axle right? So that clutch is slipping. But because the that axle gear is now turning inside the carrier it has to turn the spider right? And it has to be both spiders right, because they are both meshed with the same gear, just on different sides of it. So now those spiders are turning. How can those spiders turn inside the carrier and not turn the other axle gear? So if that axle gear is turning inside the carrier it's clutch has to be slipping as well doesn't it. It can't turn in the carrier without the clutch slipping as well.
Go back to the example I gave in the previous post with the non posi axle and one wheel off the ground. 3:1 diff. 3 turns of the driveshaft, the carrier makes on revolution. Both axles turning together with the carrier, both axles make one revolution. Put one wheel on the ground. Now turn the driveshaft 3 revolutions. Carrier still turns only one revolution, but the stationary axle doesn't turn and the wheel off the ground makes 2 revolutions. How can it make two revolutions when the carrier only made one revolution without that clutch slipping? Try it if you don't believe me. But it's been posted on here how many times, guys trying to figure out their diff ratio by counting turns with only one wheel off the ground and getting a number that didn't make sense.
This is also the reason why the one clutch posi's work. If you have a clutch on only one side, under your theory, how does that make a posi? It works because if one axle gear turns in the carrier the one on the other side has to turn as well, in the opposite direction. Because both spiders and both axles gears always have to run together it doesn't matter which one you bind to the case.
If one clutch slips the other has to slip. It's a physical impossibility for it not to.
If you think about the corner thing, what you guys are trying to tell us is that when cornering and one wheel has to go faster than the other. So does one slow down or the other one pick up speed? If we think one picks up speed and the other stays with the carrier, where does that extra speed come from? Or the one that slows down, where does that speed bleed off to when it's all tied together with gears. The way cornering actually works is that one speeds up and the other slows down an equal amount. so if one wheel needs to be 5% faster than the other in a corner, one speeds up 2.5% faster than the carrier and the other runs 2.5% slower than the carrier so they always cancel each other out and the car doesn't "gain speed" or "loose speed".
Steve g
November 9th, 2013, 01:23 PM
#31
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 60
Jim (and Brian if you've decided to try some more )
Will this help
diff2_zps4c5cbd20.jpg
diff_zps2a26efd3.jpg
Note in #8 of the first photo the relationship of speed to the carrier. When right side hits 0 (stopped) the other will be at 200% (twice the carrier speed). The lower photo shows it again. Keep in mind this is just the carrier we are looking at, but shows you how the spinning wheel is turning ahead of the carrier. The X shaft clutch slipping because it's sitting still relative to the carrier, the clutch on the gear/shaft with the windy arrow is slipping allowing the shaft and gear to move faster than the carrier.
Window 7 explains away the "natural drive side" myth.
Steve g
)Will this help
diff2_zps4c5cbd20.jpg
diff_zps2a26efd3.jpg
Note in #8 of the first photo the relationship of speed to the carrier. When right side hits 0 (stopped) the other will be at 200% (twice the carrier speed). The lower photo shows it again. Keep in mind this is just the carrier we are looking at, but shows you how the spinning wheel is turning ahead of the carrier. The X shaft clutch slipping because it's sitting still relative to the carrier, the clutch on the gear/shaft with the windy arrow is slipping allowing the shaft and gear to move faster than the carrier.
Window 7 explains away the "natural drive side" myth.
Steve g
November 9th, 2013, 01:33 PM
#32
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Location: Erie,PA
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I am busy building axles.
I aced all my math,calculus,geometry,and physics classes,so I don't need any lessons.
I don't need to be doing this. It's a spare time thing.
I am in the process of trying a gearset from a different rear,for the O-axle,and everything looks promising. Just not cheap,but neither was the machine work when I put 12-bolt Chevy gears into one. I am doing it in my spare time,just know that it can be done.
I aced all my math,calculus,geometry,and physics classes,so I don't need any lessons.
I don't need to be doing this. It's a spare time thing.
I am in the process of trying a gearset from a different rear,for the O-axle,and everything looks promising. Just not cheap,but neither was the machine work when I put 12-bolt Chevy gears into one. I am doing it in my spare time,just know that it can be done.
November 9th, 2013, 04:19 PM
#33
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Location: Richfield, Oh
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Posi posi posi
TAKE THE SIDE GEAR AND WELD IT TO THE RING GEAR CASE LEAVE THE CLUTCHES IN ON THAT SIDE TOO. now TURN THE PINION AND CARRIER HOLD THE PASSENGER AXLE FROM TURNING THE ONE NOT WELDED TO THE CASE, REMEMBER IT STILL HAS ITS CLUTCHES IN BEHIND THAT GEAR. THE SPIDER GEARS WILL SPIN ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND WHEN THE CARRIER IS TURNED FROM THE RING AND PINION BEING DRIVEN AND THE DRIVER AXLE WILL SPIN TOO AS IT IS WELDED TO THAT SIDE OF THE CARRIER CASE. so THE SPIDER GEARS (pinion gears on the pinion shaft) WILL SPIN LIKE CRAZY AS YOU HOLD THE PASSENGER AXLE STUCK. now THIS HAPPENS AT THE TRACK ALL THE TIME... AND THE CLUTCH PACK ON THAT SIDE WILL GET TOTALLY DESTROYED. OR WELDED TOGETHER. I AM NOT SAYING IT WILL HAPPEN THIS WAY ALL THE TIME (s=as clutches are unpredicable when they get worn loose and hot and dirty fluid etc. but WITH A MISMATCH SET OF SHIMMING THIS IS POSSIBLE.
it will not happen with a open DIFFERENTIAL ONLY POSI! its a clutch or cone thing. We get Auburns in with only one side burned up too.
I understand what you are saying BUT you are not working with a posi unit. think posi and you will get it. or ruin a posi and weld it like i said etc. if it means that much to you. Like Brian said. enough time spent. Jim
it will not happen with a open DIFFERENTIAL ONLY POSI! its a clutch or cone thing. We get Auburns in with only one side burned up too.
I understand what you are saying BUT you are not working with a posi unit. think posi and you will get it. or ruin a posi and weld it like i said etc. if it means that much to you. Like Brian said. enough time spent. Jim
November 9th, 2013, 04:51 PM
#34
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TAKE THE SIDE GEAR AND WELD IT TO THE RING GEAR CASE LEAVE THE CLUTCHES IN ON THAT SIDE TOO. now TURN THE PINION AND CARRIER HOLD THE PASSENGER AXLE FROM TURNING THE ONE NOT WELDED TO THE CASE, REMEMBER IT STILL HAS ITS CLUTCHES IN BEHIND THAT GEAR. THE SPIDER GEARS WILL SPIN ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND WHEN THE CARRIER IS TURNED FROM THE RING AND PINION BEING DRIVEN AND THE DRIVER AXLE WILL SPIN TOO AS IT IS WELDED TO THAT SIDE OF THE CARRIER CASE. so THE SPIDER GEARS (pinion gears on the pinion shaft) WILL SPIN LIKE CRAZY AS YOU HOLD THE PASSENGER AXLE STUCK. now THIS HAPPENS AT THE TRACK ALL THE TIME... AND THE CLUTCH PACK ON THAT SIDE WILL GET TOTALLY DESTROYED. OR WELDED TOGETHER. I AM NOT SAYING IT WILL HAPPEN THIS WAY ALL THE TIME (s=as clutches are unpredicable when they get worn loose and hot and dirty fluid etc. but WITH A MISMATCH SET OF SHIMMING THIS IS POSSIBLE.
it will not happen with a open DIFFERENTIAL ONLY POSI! its a clutch or cone thing. We get Auburns in with only one side burned up too.
I understand what you are saying BUT you are not working with a posi unit. think posi and you will get it. or ruin a posi and weld it like i said etc. if it means that much to you. Like Brian said. enough time spent. Jim
it will not happen with a open DIFFERENTIAL ONLY POSI! its a clutch or cone thing. We get Auburns in with only one side burned up too.
I understand what you are saying BUT you are not working with a posi unit. think posi and you will get it. or ruin a posi and weld it like i said etc. if it means that much to you. Like Brian said. enough time spent. Jim
A posi has all the same gears all in the same constant mesh. The only difference is you add a bind to the case. The gears all act exactly the same way as an open diff.
Is it important to me that you guys understand this? Not at all. I would have thought it would be important to you tho. I don't have anything to prove here or any reputation to try and defend. I'm not trying to sell anyone on the quality of my work or my knowledge about diffs. I offer this correction of some incorrect statements only for the benefit of the readers that come here looking to increase their own knowledge. I think there's enough info and diagrams on here now for even the novice to understand what's happening in a diff.
Steve g
November 9th, 2013, 05:37 PM
#35
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Location: Richfield, Oh
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Same
A posi has all the same gears all in the same constant mesh. The only difference is you add a bind to the case. The gears all act exactly the same way as an open diff.
If they are the same and act the same WHY have posi then?
If they are the same and act the same WHY have posi then?
November 9th, 2013, 06:04 PM
#36
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try it
I know i said i was done...BUT...
No I said weld one side gear to the carrier NOT to each other.... IT HAS TO BE A POSI CASE WITH CLUTCHES IN PLACE do not weld the spider together or then we have a spool again. THIS is an example were NOT REALLY going to modify a car this way??? It is POINTLESS... It is to show what happens to the spiders with a CLUTCH still working on the other side. TRY IT. I did already!
The welded spider gear will try with the carrier case and the ring acting as one. The spiders will spin around and when you hold the axle shaft the clutches will spin in the case because they are lock by the square tabs and the clutches connected to the side gear will stay stationary with the axle and the NON welded spider gear. IT ONLY WORKS WITH A POSI UNIT. YOU cannot use a open diff for this example THEY ARE DIFFERENT!
it works, I did it already in the shop.
You see it at the track - The car will have posi then the one wheel shuts down the other keeps spinning your default wheel is spinning - Now the clutch pack can be still engaged on one side and the case is spinning the same rate as the side gear lock buy the clutches and the little pinion spider gears will spin around like tops and the ground lock the other wheel to the ground while the opposite clutches spinning in the carrier are sliding between the locked clutches connected to the axle side gear lock to the sticky track. ...
AS far as everyone understanding it... If everyone got it then why would anyone pay to get it done - I know time - just do not want to. But really most of the time we pay to get ti done because it is not what we do for a living.
I pay many people to do things for me I can not do. I do not need to understand all TAX services to have some one do my taxes. I do try to pick out a comprehensive person to do it ... So I think I have explain it pretty good and guys know me here and should be confident enough that I can rebuild there rear correctly.
I guess we are just in agreement to disagree. ALL the examples you have shown are for OPEN diffs not posi / Limited slip.
Jim
No I said weld one side gear to the carrier NOT to each other.... IT HAS TO BE A POSI CASE WITH CLUTCHES IN PLACE do not weld the spider together or then we have a spool again. THIS is an example were NOT REALLY going to modify a car this way??? It is POINTLESS... It is to show what happens to the spiders with a CLUTCH still working on the other side. TRY IT. I did already!
The welded spider gear will try with the carrier case and the ring acting as one. The spiders will spin around and when you hold the axle shaft the clutches will spin in the case because they are lock by the square tabs and the clutches connected to the side gear will stay stationary with the axle and the NON welded spider gear. IT ONLY WORKS WITH A POSI UNIT. YOU cannot use a open diff for this example THEY ARE DIFFERENT!
it works, I did it already in the shop.
You see it at the track - The car will have posi then the one wheel shuts down the other keeps spinning your default wheel is spinning - Now the clutch pack can be still engaged on one side and the case is spinning the same rate as the side gear lock buy the clutches and the little pinion spider gears will spin around like tops and the ground lock the other wheel to the ground while the opposite clutches spinning in the carrier are sliding between the locked clutches connected to the axle side gear lock to the sticky track. ...
AS far as everyone understanding it... If everyone got it then why would anyone pay to get it done - I know time - just do not want to. But really most of the time we pay to get ti done because it is not what we do for a living.
I pay many people to do things for me I can not do. I do not need to understand all TAX services to have some one do my taxes. I do try to pick out a comprehensive person to do it ... So I think I have explain it pretty good and guys know me here and should be confident enough that I can rebuild there rear correctly.
I guess we are just in agreement to disagree. ALL the examples you have shown are for OPEN diffs not posi / Limited slip.
Jim
Last edited by monzaz; November 9th, 2013 at 06:09 PM.
November 9th, 2013, 07:11 PM
#37
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Location: NEW HARTFORD CT
Posts: 2,632
educational ty
STEVE- How does one tire travel further than another??????????
I can not explain this any further- REMEMBER the carrier is spinning also the clutches on the axle are NOT connected to the carrier case directly.... The clutches connected to the carrier are not directly connected to the side gear...they slide between each other with nothing more than friction connecting the two. The planyery gears are an amazing set-up and do neat stuff when different power is applied to either side.
LOOK at the open differential NON POSI- HOW can you spin one tire on a burn out and the other the other tire does nothing?????? Spider gears are connected??? RIGHT? explain that?
NOW look at the posi SAME planetary gears. right? Just the clutches are the difference. DO you get it now? PLEASE I hope so. I just can not explain it any more.... JUST accept that the left tire can and will spin at a different rate and or distance than the right tire...and visa versa... SPIDER planetary gears do this. PERIOD.
Sorry it is the morning- did not mean to go off on the thread...
if this video does not explain it- then you will never get it. GREAT VIDEO... I have it on my site.
Video -
How Differential Gear works (BEST Tutorial) - YouTube
I can not explain this any further- REMEMBER the carrier is spinning also the clutches on the axle are NOT connected to the carrier case directly.... The clutches connected to the carrier are not directly connected to the side gear...they slide between each other with nothing more than friction connecting the two. The planyery gears are an amazing set-up and do neat stuff when different power is applied to either side.
LOOK at the open differential NON POSI- HOW can you spin one tire on a burn out and the other the other tire does nothing?????? Spider gears are connected??? RIGHT? explain that?
NOW look at the posi SAME planetary gears. right? Just the clutches are the difference. DO you get it now? PLEASE I hope so. I just can not explain it any more.... JUST accept that the left tire can and will spin at a different rate and or distance than the right tire...and visa versa... SPIDER planetary gears do this. PERIOD.
Sorry it is the morning- did not mean to go off on the thread...
if this video does not explain it- then you will never get it.
GREAT VIDEO... I have it on my site. Video -
How Differential Gear works (BEST Tutorial) - YouTube
that was great and I am rookie far as this stuff goes and this was educating and now I have a better understanding ty
November 9th, 2013, 08:35 PM
#38
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 60
Back to the welded gears for a minute. I did not say you welded two gears together, I said you weld one axle gear to the carrier, just as you said. What difference does it make that there are clutches behind it. It's welded to the carrier. Stick a battle ship behind the gear before you weld it to the carrier. It's still welded to the carrier. Now, all 4 gears, 2 axle and 2 spiders, are in constant mesh with one another right? One axle gear can't turn, it's welded to the carrier. If that gear can't turn, how are the two spider gears that are meshed into it able to turn? And if the two spiders can't turn because they are toothed to a gear that can't turn, how can the other axle gear turn. It's sitting on the other side of the spider gears that are locked to the welded gear.
You are trying to tell us that #8 in the pics is not true because it's a posi. Look at this pic of a posi
images_zpsd8fc1d10.jpg
The gears meshes are exactly the same. The fibre discs are splined to the axle gears, simply an extension of the axle gear. The steels are fixed to the carrier. Simply an extension of the carrier. They have no impact of the meshing and rotation of the gears. They simply try to hold them to the carrier, but ultimately the gears overide the clutches and the clutches slip, around corners and when one wheel does break loose and the other doesn't, just like you witness at the strip. Look at that picture and try to imagine how you could lock one green gea to the grey carrier and yet the two yellow spiders could still be spinning on the pin and consequently the other green gear turning.
The reason the diagrams that explain diff operation doen't show the clutches is because they don't make any difference to the principal of differential operation.
Steve g
November 10th, 2013, 05:38 AM
#39
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Richfield, Oh
Posts: 1,737
Correction open posi
Yes are correct the open does work the same as a posi ( concede to that) Just did this with a open diff last night too. Weld one side gear to the carrier case. (Tack weld) (look at picture 2 of 3 when you click on your posi trac lock picture - See the big red X it says this axle is not driving...it can be completely stopped too the one axle can have 100% and the other can have 0% power.)
DO this in a complete rear end housing NOT with a unit on the bench this way you can really see what is happening- turn the pinion gear which turns the ring and case and the one welded side gear it will drive the axle that is welded. hold the axle that is not welded. watch the spider gears etc. YOU tell me what is happening.
You can not think one dimensional on this one - you have a case with side gears and the spider ride on a axis.... If the spiders were fixed what you say would make sense. They are not that is what make s the differential SO SPECIAL...those simple little spider gears on the axis.
TELL me how can you burn out ONE WHEEL and the other does nothing? In forward gear the passenger axles spins and the driver side does nothing...In reverse the driver side will spin like mad and the passenger axle does nothing. Because the one side gear plants itself to the carrier as the other side sits idle while the carrier goes around and the spiders spin like crazy on their axis....This is how we weld spider gears to the pinion shaft if the oil has fine metal in it....creates a magnetic field and fuses to the spider and pinion shaft. PLEASE please please. JUST PHYSICALLY DO IT in a REAR END COMPLETE HOUSING. you CAN NOT do this test ON THE BENCH WITH A CARRIER IN A VISE OR ON A TABLE. Put the rear end in jack stands on the axle tubes so you can spin the pinion and watch the carrier and spiders. you will have to watch close because the window will turn as this test is happening and you will only be able to see when the spider gear window is going by. and do what i said. No more pictures. IF I have time I will video it for you today. Jim
DO this in a complete rear end housing NOT with a unit on the bench this way you can really see what is happening- turn the pinion gear which turns the ring and case and the one welded side gear it will drive the axle that is welded. hold the axle that is not welded. watch the spider gears etc. YOU tell me what is happening.
You can not think one dimensional on this one - you have a case with side gears and the spider ride on a axis.... If the spiders were fixed what you say would make sense. They are not that is what make s the differential SO SPECIAL...those simple little spider gears on the axis.
TELL me how can you burn out ONE WHEEL and the other does nothing? In forward gear the passenger axles spins and the driver side does nothing...In reverse the driver side will spin like mad and the passenger axle does nothing. Because the one side gear plants itself to the carrier as the other side sits idle while the carrier goes around and the spiders spin like crazy on their axis....This is how we weld spider gears to the pinion shaft if the oil has fine metal in it....creates a magnetic field and fuses to the spider and pinion shaft. PLEASE please please. JUST PHYSICALLY DO IT in a REAR END COMPLETE HOUSING. you CAN NOT do this test ON THE BENCH WITH A CARRIER IN A VISE OR ON A TABLE. Put the rear end in jack stands on the axle tubes so you can spin the pinion and watch the carrier and spiders. you will have to watch close because the window will turn as this test is happening and you will only be able to see when the spider gear window is going by. and do what i said. No more pictures. IF I have time I will video it for you today. Jim
Last edited by monzaz; November 10th, 2013 at 06:34 AM.
November 10th, 2013, 06:55 AM
#40
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Posts: 60
Jim, I have done that a hundred times. You don't have to weld it and you can do it with a loose carrier, but I've done it in housings too. If you understand now that the posi and open operate exactly the same go back and look at the diagrams I posted.
When one axle is not turning and the carrier is turning that side clutch is slipping. We both agree to that.
What I'm trying to explain to you and the drawings are all trying to explain to you is that if you hold the one side stationary so that it is turning at 0% of carrier speed the axle gear is turning relative to the carrier, the spiders turn relative to the carrier and the other gear turns relative to the carrier. All the gears are meshed together. If one turns they all turn. If the other axle gear is turning relative to the carrier that clutch has to be slipping doesn't it. It has to. It's job is to try to stop that gear from turning in the carrier. And if the stationary wheel is turning at 0% of carrier speed the other side is turning at 200% of carrier speed.
Jim, this is so easy to prove to yourself now that you understand the posi is the same as open. Jack one wheel off the ground. Do whatever it takes to turn the carrier one revolution and count how many times the wheel off the ground turns. We've all done this at one time or another. You hold one wheel still, turn the carrier one revolution and the wheel off the ground will turn 2 revolutions. If the wheel turns 2 revolutions and the carrier only turned one, that clutch has to be slipping doesn't it?
Go back and look at the diagrams. It couldn't make it any clearer. Carrier revolution, 100%, rt wheel 90% (clutch is slipping), left wheel 110% (clutch is slipping) Rt wheel slipping more, only turning 50% of carrier speed, lt side increases and is now turning 150% of carrier speed. rt side only turning 25% of carrier, lt side 175%. rt side 0%, left side 200%. 200% is 2 times the carrier speed.
At the track when you see that one wheel spinning only, it is spinning twice as fast as it would if both wheels were spinning. It is being accelerated above the carrier speed and in order to do that it's clutch has to slip as well.
Which brings us back to my original statement. Both clutches always slip the same amount.
Steve g
When one axle is not turning and the carrier is turning that side clutch is slipping. We both agree to that.
What I'm trying to explain to you and the drawings are all trying to explain to you is that if you hold the one side stationary so that it is turning at 0% of carrier speed the axle gear is turning relative to the carrier, the spiders turn relative to the carrier and the other gear turns relative to the carrier. All the gears are meshed together. If one turns they all turn. If the other axle gear is turning relative to the carrier that clutch has to be slipping doesn't it. It has to. It's job is to try to stop that gear from turning in the carrier. And if the stationary wheel is turning at 0% of carrier speed the other side is turning at 200% of carrier speed.
Jim, this is so easy to prove to yourself now that you understand the posi is the same as open. Jack one wheel off the ground. Do whatever it takes to turn the carrier one revolution and count how many times the wheel off the ground turns. We've all done this at one time or another. You hold one wheel still, turn the carrier one revolution and the wheel off the ground will turn 2 revolutions. If the wheel turns 2 revolutions and the carrier only turned one, that clutch has to be slipping doesn't it?
Go back and look at the diagrams. It couldn't make it any clearer. Carrier revolution, 100%, rt wheel 90% (clutch is slipping), left wheel 110% (clutch is slipping) Rt wheel slipping more, only turning 50% of carrier speed, lt side increases and is now turning 150% of carrier speed. rt side only turning 25% of carrier, lt side 175%. rt side 0%, left side 200%. 200% is 2 times the carrier speed.
At the track when you see that one wheel spinning only, it is spinning twice as fast as it would if both wheels were spinning. It is being accelerated above the carrier speed and in order to do that it's clutch has to slip as well.
Which brings us back to my original statement. Both clutches always slip the same amount.
Steve g
