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Was checking the rear brakes on my 70 W30, with TO rear end. When I was take the drum of, was noticing the back and forth end play. Never payed that much attention to it be for, but has movement. What is the normal movement. To me it fells about the same amount, that a C clip axle would have, to remove the clips.
Was checking the rear brakes on my 70 W30, with TO rear end. When I was take the drum of, was noticing the back and forth end play. Never payed that much attention to it be for, but has movement. What is the normal movement. To me it fells about the same amount, that a C clip axle would have, to remove the clips.
Tapered bearing or non tapered bearing?
Well that would all depend on the bearing type. OLD original Bower non tapered bearing you can tolerate they end play with no issues. A tapered bearing you want pretty much none.
Best to pull it take a picture post it and will see which kid you have. TRY like heck to keep the originals in there as long as you can... The A9 set9 1970 -1976 axle bearings for GM mid size bolt in axle car rears are a nightmare and the production of these bearing and seal is not very reliable.
No more that .005 to .010 for a tapered bearing to have good service life in my opinion. C-lip axles are totally different and can not be compared to BOLT in axles for end play comparison
I replaced these bearings years ago. If I remember right, it was the roller type, with that keeper, or what ever you call it behind the bearing, the pressed on ring.
I replaced these bearings years ago. If I remember right, it was the roller type, with that keeper, or what ever you call it behind the bearing, the pressed on ring.
Yes they are Press on bearings / BOLT IN AXLES is what they are nick named on the forums etc. All B O P rears have them from 1964-1972 and even into the 1973-1976 era. Then after that almost every car was c-clip axle set up...They had the 9 bolt Aussie Iroc rear which again used these crazy axle bearings again...lol.
THE old 1970-1976 BIA axles had press on roller bearing square barrel type that were pressed onb the axles..BUT the new design were Tapered conical bearing... THE back lash on these tapered bearings are critical. YOU CAN NOT get the barrel type old school press on bearing for the 1970 -1976 anymore unless you find NEW old shelf stock.
Jim
Jim:
Sorry to thread jack but I think my question is pertinent to the OP's original question. How do you set the end play with tapered bearings in a BOP bolt-in rear end?
Rodney
You buy the correct parts. There is NO Adjustment. The seal is the adjustment IF the parts are not correct your screwed.
I am sure you can make shims etc. BUT the factory never had any adjustable shims or parts etc.
Sorry that is not the answer your looking for BUT we are all at the mercy of the manufacturing of the parts.
Measure and check them before installing.
Jim
Jim:
I have a stock, '72 corporate rear-end with all new parts (gears, bearings, carrier, etc.) and it has the original bolt-in axles. I decided to check the end-play of my axles over the weekend with a dial indicator: the measured end-play on both sides was 0.035-0.040". I have the newer, tapered bearings (that I bought from you). I can buy stainless steel shim stock that is 0.015" thick and could cut out 2 donut spacers (0.015" + 0.015" = 0.030") to reduce the end-play. Do you think this will work? Should I put the shim stock spacers between the bearing and the seal or between the seal and the outer retainer that bolts onto the backing plate? Thanks!
END play can be tricky... If the end play is from the bearing race cage area or is it caused by the seal - I really detest the tapered bearing system of the GM rears with bolt in axles from 1970 -1976
The housing could be damaged inside the tube where the machined ledge is at also from years of use of the bearing sliding in and out end play also... BUT the original NON TApered bearing is not affected like the tapered bearing type bearing is.
Ideally for me shimming the inner ledge of the housing is best but the shim is so short in height machining them is really tough.
putting shim out board the seal is popular but needs to be on the outer edge area as not to deform the seal lip ID area.
between the bearing and the seal will not work and most likely fail .
Either in the housing tube machined ledge which is only 1/16" in height or the more popular outboard the seal.
I would be more worried the housing has some wear issues where the bearing stops in the housing... The Timkin set has the best dimension set-up out there for the oiled bearing set-up.
Really disappointed it is not working for your rear with out having to do mods.
Jim:
Thank you for sharing your expertise on these rear ends. It's frustrating when you can't get the correct parts for these old cars. I will place the shim spacer outboard of the seal and keep tabs on it closely once I get my car on the road again. I have a couple more questions for you. On the LH side, I could move the axle flange up & down vertically, not just in & out (end-play). Is the vertical movement because the bearing rollers are too far out in the race? Were these tapered bearings originally designed for the Chevy C-clip style rear ends and I guess the C-clip controls the axle end-play?
No these were NEVER designed for c-clip axles. All c-clip axles are standard square barrel bearings that are pressed into the housing tube end and seal out board them using the oil from the differential for lubrication
There are many designs for the BOLT IN AXLES. The early bearings were oiled like 55-56 chevy had O ring seal on the outer diameter of the seal and one side was open for oil the other out side was seal so fluid would stay in.
Then there were the Buick Olds Pontiac Muscle car era sealed bearings and never received any oil to the bearing at all.
Then they tried this totally oiled bearing with seal OUTBOARD THE BEARING ALL LOADED ON THE AXLE SHAFT. Which was fine with the square barrel type bearings which did not rely on end play being overly critical.
later they did a redesign and went tapered bearing saying it handled loads in turns better etc... ???
Ever since I started doing rears these bearings (tapered type) have always been head aches.
Age of the housing will not help in a wear factor and re-manufacturing parts over years something got lost in the dimensions or something?
UP DOWN play really is a concern and is usually caused by the end play being too much... as the bearing gets seated into the race it should get less and less up down and end play.
Jim:
This pic is the LH axle that has the up & down play mentioned above. There is a loose, metal ring on the outboard side of the bearing. Is this correct or is the bearing broken? I don't remember the ring part when the bearings were installed. I also think the end play is greater than I measured, seems to be the only explanation for the vertical play. I'm going to reassemble this side and recheck the end play.
So, I made some 0.028" thick spacers yesterday in an attempt to reduce the endplay of my axles; but to my surprise, the spacers had no impact on the endplay. I tried installing between the seal and the bolt-on retainer and between the seal and the bearing, neither location made any difference in reducing the endplay. Then I measured the diameter of the outer bearing retainer and the depth of the race inside the axle tube and realized these parts are designed to limit the endplay to 0.030". The diameter of the outer bearing retainer (which is located between the tapered bearing and the seal, see red arrow in pic#1) fits so snuggly inside the axle tube that it will contact the outer edge of the race (see pic#2) thus preventing the bearing from being drawn any deeper into the race. The 0.030" endplay that I measured is built into the design of the parts and cannot be reduced short of machining down the diameter of the bearing retainer (pic#1) or reducing the thickness of the race (pic#2). I don't know if 0.030" endplay is more than what was designed into the earlier "barrel" style (non-tapered) bearings but it certainly can't be altered by shimming the tapered bearings.
Well from the picture you are all correct. That little metal O ring is correct and once the axle is driven on these parts will disconnect from each other. Race bearing and seal outer ring.... The seal will push against that metal O ring ... The seal seems to be your problem here...Looks like you have a NON Timkin seal and i BET IT ONLY MEASURES .460 -.465 IN THICKNESS. THE 712146 SEAL IS SUPPOSE TO MEASURE .490 at least.
See what the gold seal measures.
When ever we see the Gold and black seal it throws a RED flag for us.
You said you got them from me... They should have been TIMKIN...??? Yes?
I would hope TIMKIN is not selling the gold seals now. The last d=few i had to install were NOT GOLD and black they were all black and almost 90 degree edges not smooth rounded like yours in the picture...??
Last edited by monzaz; September 29th, 2019 at 08:57 PM.
Jim:
I've looked but can't seem to find the receipt, but I purchased a set of new 3.42 gears, a TrueTrac LSD, and a bearing & seal kit from you on Feb 26, 2014. The bearings were TImkin, I don't remember the brand of the seals. Total cost of the parts was $797.54. I had a local shop (Pyle Bros.) do the install, they checked the housing and tubes for proper alignment, pressed on the bearings and seals and set-up the gear pattern. I really don't think the seal thickness is my issue, if it was, the spacer would have pushed the bearing further into the race and reduced the endplay. It sure seems like the little metal O-ring is contacting the outer edge of the race, inside the axle tube and limiting the endplay adjustment.
reviving an old thread I am running into the same exact issue Replaced the original bearing and seals Bearing are National A9 Seals are National 2146 , per specs 0.375 width
Jim's post says should be seal 712146 shows as Timken National, per specs 0.470 width. Thats 0.095 difference. That's close to 3/32".
I'm currently mounting the axle plates to the diff with different thickness washer instead of the 0.125 backing plate and working this backwards to see what it seems the error is.
ok, here's I did and assumed.
Backing plate is 0.125 .
Correct Seal 712146 is 0.470 .
Incorrect seal 2146 is 0.375 .
Seal difference, correct minus Incorrect, is 0.95 .
Backing plate is 0.125 . I measured it.
Then subtract Seal difference 0.95 for what I'm calling the Corrected Backing plate thickness is .125 - .095 = 0.03 note 1/32 = 0.031
so I replaced the backing plate with a 1/32 shim
At first I used 1/16" shims and there was what seemed to be excessive in and out free play.
Then i replaced the 1/16" shims with 1/32" shims, which is what I calculated would be correct earlier.
there was a little in and out play but no up and down play
next day...
I got the 712146 seals put on.
I installed the axles
There is no play in and out or up and down.
seems tight but im not stressing about it.
the carrier tapered bearing probably get hotter, work harder, and have preload. And that's how they're designed to be.
In the past I would be able to leave the brakes on the backing plate because the old style cylindrical bearing stayed together as one unit.
these tapered bearing don't stay together and if the lip part of the bearing, that the seal rides on, falls off it proper location you're screwed and hopefully you see it and take it apart and don't bolt it up.
So I removed the brakes and disconnected the parking brake cable assembly from the frame so I wouldn't be fighting anything.
After cleaning the surfaces, putting silicone between the backing plate and axle, and a light smear where the race rides, I put the bolts in and positioned the backing plate.
then the tricky part... set bearing ring over bearing, press the seal against it to hold it in place.
while holding this by constantly pushing on the seal, put axle into diff. Align axle with carrier groove and press in by pressing the seal only not the axle
once the seal is started to go in, that is its partially pressed in the diff, then put the axle hold in plate over the bolts...do not press the axle in!
remember if that bearing lip falls behind the bearing you have to redo the install.
then using a wrench i gradually, evenly tighten the axle hold in plate as it pressed the seal into the diff.
I did not use a socket and turn the axle to line up the holes in the axles with the nuts...I didn't want to move the axle at all. The only thing holding all the pieces together was the small amount I was able to push the seal in by hand.
I guess if you had an assistant it might be easier but it's really limited space.
Maybe a helper with some type of homemade thing to help press the seal in.
Last edited by OldOldsLover; February 21st, 2022 at 07:59 PM.
You do not need any end play. The bearing race will have all the end play you will need.
The seal will have NO end play in the axle housing end. IF the parts are correct .490 thickness minimum .470 might work is the bearing has minimal play.
AGAIN I HATE TAPERED BEARINGS In the A9 set9 System.
Only way these things work is if the parts are built to good tolerances. Seal and bearings.
PLUS your better be sure your axles run out is good or yourt beating a DEAD HORSE for sure. !!!
A lot of guys will blame a bearing when really the axle shaft is the issue.
??? I do not know what you want us to do for you?? Jim
Hi jim,
u answered the question in your next post.
I didn't know if there was supposed to be any in an out play...
this definitely was a pia...with the older style cylindrical bearing I can do it in no time.
The seal will have NO end play in the axle housing end. IF the parts are correct .490 thickness minimum .470 might work is the bearing has minimal play.
What are you going to do? Use disc brakes with out a drum backing plate?
I am using the rear drum brakes it came with., no disc brakes
now I understand how changing to disc brakes with a thicker backing plate can be an issue.
I guess you would have to get seals that are thicker or make some kind of metal bushing but i can see that being pretty tricky because it has to sit only on the proper part of the seal.
If your using the more economic disc brake kits (The right stuff detailing, summit, jegs etc. ) that bolt on behind the housing flange end you can just make a spacer thinner than the drum backing plate and reel in that end play that way. IF your using a outside the end of the housing flange type 4 bolt disc brake bracket ...yes your screwed to try and make a spacer shim to give the correct even pressure to the seal.
May 28th, 2019, 09:31 AM
The Timkin set has the best dimension set-up out there for the oiled bearing set-up.
