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Hey guys. I've started seeing some starting issues with my '69 CS, so I've decided to replace my starter and battery cables. I'm having a hard time finding what I'm looking for. I don't care to buy the cheapest parts; I do want the best quality I can locate without an exorbitant cost. I can't believe I'm having to ask this, but does anybody have good sources for replacement starters and battery cables?
My 350 is the low compression version, but considering that the price is the same, I'm planning to put on the high torque, OEM style starter. This is ok, right? As far as I can tell, the only difference is at the hot end of the solenoid and either should bolt up the same. I'm seeing prices all over the place for these, though I'm not sure why.
I'm also in a little bit of a quandary over the battery cables. The cables I'm replacing are not original, and I think the original cables were the spring clamp style. Those are available, but they don't seem like the greatest idea to me. I like using the correct parts even though this is not a show car... but beyond that, if I have to choose between correct and high quality, I prefer the latter.
The cheapest source for a starter is probably RockAuto or Amazon. You can probably get battery cables from the same place; however, if you want high quality cables with good ends nothing beats manufacturing your own (if you have the ability to do so).
Here is what I would do, but it will not be the least expensive:
1. Have your stock starter rebuilt by an old time electrical shop. They are many in Hemmings. That way you will not get a cheap reman starter that is a hodgepodge of parts. Ask for a high heat solenoid too.
2. Go to M&H Electric, and they will make you a set of cables in a larger gauge than stock. This is important as the cables play a key role in starting.
I did this, and my car is 100% reliable no matter what.
Also, be sure that the ground straps between the engine and body are good and have clean mounting areas.
I got 1-gauge battery cables for my 67 Delta from Battery Cables USA. They don't look exactly like original, but they work great. Reasonable prices, fast delivery.
Thanks all for the ideas and suggestions.
I'm leaning towards just ordering the starter from Supercars Unlimited. They list both the regular and the high-torque remanufactured starters for $110. Rock Auto seems to have only the standard starter for about half the cost, but I don't think I want to go the standard route. Summit has about 20 to choose from, with prices all over the map, and not the greatest descriptions. Am I missing something?
Fusick does indeed have the original style ring clamp cables for $43/each, but I just don't think I want that style. I'm a lot more comfortable with bolted cable ends than spring clamped ones. Joe, those cables from Battery Cables USA look really nice. Heavy gauge and not crazy prices. Thanks for that suggestion. They look like a really nice alternative to the AC Delco cables I've seen.
As stated above Napa carries all kinds of battery cables for your car. What issues are you having with your starter? A hi torque mini starter for a lo comp 350 is a bit over kill and unnecessary.
On the Rock Auto site, the last starter listed is the high torque one. It has a 1" spacer between the solenoid and the field tab (that is the identifier for factory starters).
You should be able to get this from your local auto parts store as well.
Eric:
Lately the starter has been intermittently failing to turn. The bendix is engaging, the battery is less than 2 years old, in good shape and fully charged, but the starter sometimes just won't turn the engine over. I've checked and brushed the electrical connections, which test ok, so I think the starter is just getting tired. The cables have a fair bit of corrosion and wear, and they're also 6 gauge, so my thinking is to just replace everything. I don't drive the car a ton, but I do need it to be reliable.
I actually wasn't thinking of a mini starter. I don't ever intend to fit the car with headers, so the full OE size starter is fine for me. The high torque OEM starter, as near as I can tell, was used for the high compression engines. Even though my engine is not high compression, the starter gets a pretty fair workout if the car sits for more than a week without being run... so I was thinking the high torque starter may handle that better. Any thoughts about that are really welcome.
When I checked NAPA, they only listed only 4 cables for my car. One of the pairs would be OK, but they're not in stock locally, so I'd have to order anyway. I haven't made up my mind about those yet, but I like the looks and description of the cables Joe suggested. They're less expensive than NAPA, too.
Kenneth, I thought that (Remy #25275) was the high-torque starter too, but the specs list it as 1.2kW. The standard starter I believe is 1.1kW, so I was not convinced. It's also less expensive than the one that should be the standard torque model, so that made me even less sure.
I know it's not that difficult, but this is not my favorite job, so I'd prefer to do it once and be finished with it...
Eric:
Lately the starter has been intermittently failing to turn. The bendix is engaging, the battery is less than 2 years old, in good shape and fully charged, but the starter sometimes just won't turn the engine over. I've checked and brushed the electrical connections, which test ok, so I think the starter is just getting tired. The cables have a fair bit of corrosion and wear, and they're also 6 gauge, so my thinking is to just replace everything. I don't drive the car a ton, but I do need it to be reliable.
This sounds like the disc in your starter solenoid is worn. You may just get away with a new solenoid. Up to you on replacing the whole starter.
Kenneth, I thought that (Remy #25275) was the high-torque starter too, but the specs list it as 1.2kW. The standard starter I believe is 1.1kW, so I was not convinced. It's also less expensive than the one that should be the standard torque model, so that made me even less sure.
I know it's not that difficult, but this is not my favorite job, so I'd prefer to do it once and be finished with it...
I have absolutely no idea what the power ratings of starters are. What I do know is that the high torque factory starters have a 1" spacer between the solenoid and the field tab. I spent my youth working in auto parts stores selling these. They should still be available from your corner parts store.
I was under the impression that the spacer indicated the higher torque version -- thanks for the confirmation, Kenneth. I just found it odd that the power ratings were about the same for either version. Must be that the higher torque version has different internal gearing, which probably means it also turns more slowly than the standard version. I'll have to take one apart one of these days and see what's inside.
I was under the impression that the spacer indicated the higher torque version
It does for factory starters. I cannot comment on aftermarket/rebuilt starters. The spacer is necessary for the longer case and longer/larger windings in the higher torque starters.
I got 1-gauge battery cables for my 67 Delta from Battery Cables USA. They don't look exactly like original, but they work great. Reasonable prices, fast delivery.
The larger M&H cables look exactly like factory, only a bigger diameter.
According to what I understood from Stellar, the high torque starter has 23 bars in the armature, and you can't always go by the length.
100% correct. Even some factory starters having the higher field lead to the solenoid can be low torque. The high torque armature will have 23 copper bars on the commutator and will have a larger diameter than the 27 bar narrower low torque armature. When referencing the early starters ( the ones with about a 1 inch narrow section of the field housing) the ones with the higher field lead to solenoid will be high torque. If refering to the later design field housing starters ( the ones with about a 3 inch narrow section) the higher lead will not always be high torque. The later design starters will also never have the threaded hole on the side of the case for the support brace.
There will be no problem using a high torque starter in place of a low torque one but not vise versa. If the original low torque one worked for 40+ years, just have it rebuilt. Probably the least expensive way to go and probably higher quality than the new stuff.
This all helps to clarify things immensely. It seems pretty clear now that the only way to tell for certain whether a (10MT, right?) remanufactured starter is high or low torque is to look at the armature.
I haven't removed the starter from the engine yet and didn't know what to look for last time I was underneath the car, so I don't know if it's original or not, but I'm assuming it's not. If it is I guess I should look at rebuilding or at least hanging on to it instead of exchanging it for a $20 core fee, even if it's the low-torque version, which I believe it should be.
I still think a high torque version would be better suited to this car. Problem is that except for SuperCars Unlimited, I see no sellers, not even Rock Auto or NAPA, defining whether their rebuilt products are the high or low torque versions.
When shopping for a rebuilt starter, are we all just shooting in the dark, or is there some secret you guys haven't yet turned loose?
You guys never cease to amaze. The wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum is incredible.
I don't have a '69 parts manual, but I do have the '72 and '79 editions. Of course, the part numbers changed between the two editions, which isn't surprising. But this is interesting (to me):
For my '69 350, the '72 manual lists a single part number (1108348) for all V8's except the 455 and Toro.
It lists #1108389 for the high compression 455 and for all '70-'71 V8's.
The '79 manual lists #1109022 for all '68-'73 V8's except the Toro. The remanufactured version is #1893723.
This makes it sound like at some point all replacement starters were the high torque starter, since high or low compression was not differentiated.
When I check the Remy #25275 at Rock Auto (the link Kenneth/Fun71 provided earlier), it lists all of the above part numbers as alternate numbers. So I'm thinking this is indeed the high torque starter I'm looking for and it should bolt right up to my engine.
On my car the P.O. must have had some sort of issues. He added custom 1/0 cables and a reman starter. I have added to the mix a 875cca battery which is nearly 18 years old and the PO did the upgrades more than 23 years ago.
Now I need to replace the choke pull off at some point. So the choke is dialed back to zero. So the reason for the extended crank time to getting started.
But the boy recorded this video for exhaust sound, but you can hear the speed at which my 350 turns over on a cold start.
I had the same problem of turning over slowly on my 65. I replaced the brushes and the starter worked as it should again. I got the brushes from Napa for around $6.00 and still have the original starter.
These starters are heavy and shipping can add up. If you can find a local rebuilder you trust, you may want to take it there. If you are going to pay shipping anyway , I would be happy to rebuild it for you.
So yesterday the starter wouldn't turn the engine, so I put the car up on jack stands and disconnected the battery cables. I also removed the wheels since I want to flush the brake fluid this spring. This morning I ordered parts. After that it was time to get after the old starter and cables.
My head was all over the place trying to decide how I wanted to do the cables. In the end, I decided to use military style battery clamps and 1/0 lug-to-lug cables. Battery Cables USA had just what I needed for the cables (thanks, Joe P.). Remy Battery had almost everything else I needed: the battery clamps, ring terminals, wire for the charge cable and negative battery lead. Just for the heck of it, I bought some 8ga wire for those leads, even though what was there were 12ga + and 14ga -.
Not knowing what I'd find with the starter, I went ahead and ordered the remanufactured Remy high-torque starter from Rock Auto.
I had forgotten how tight a space the starter is jammed into on this engine. I have single exhaust, and the crossover pipe runs right under the starter. After pulling the starter bolts, I gave up trying to maneuver the thousand pound starter into a position where it could be extracted (honestly, I don't think it can be). By removing three of the four flywheel cover screws, I was able to move it out of the way enough for the nose of the starter to clear, and birthing was complete except for cutting the cord. Thankfully it wasn't necessary to remove the crossover pipe, although that would have worked, too.
And here it is:
Yeah, I know, not that exciting.
Definitely not the original starter. The number on the case is (1)107889 1 C 6. I can't read the first digit (1), but it has to be there, right? As I understand the build date code, this would be March 6 of 1971 (or 1981?). Either way, it's not original. But it definitely should be a high torque model. I pulled the end plate and the armature has 23 segments. I don't know if it's worth rebuilding it or not. Stellar, if you can form any opinions from the photo, feel free. The interior of the case was full of carbon and copper filings, but the armature did turn by hand. There seemed to be a good bit of life left in the brushes.
In any case, I'll install the re-mfd Remy starter when it arrives and then decide what to do with the old one...
When I removed the old starter, the yellow wire from the harness was connected to the solenoid. The car was converted to HEI by the P.O. It's my understanding that with HEI, the yellow wire is no longer needed, correct? I didn't think to trace it back to find the other end of it. Is there even anything for it to be connected to on an HEI?
There was also a fabric tube (asbestos, maybe?), apparently for heat/insulation, over the lower end of the positive battery cable, to about where the cable goes through the routing tube. I assume it's for protection against heat from the block, because it's not really near the exhaust. It was soaked with grease and falling apart. What, if anything, would/have you guys used to replace this material?
If you were to put a new solenoid on that old starter, I bet you'd be good to go. In conjunction with new cables of course.
Good luck with your plans, hope you get to enjoy the car real soon.
If I were you I would not bother to have it rebuilt unless you have problems with the new one. 1107889 is for a corvette 1961. It may have some value to a vet owner and you may be able to ebay it to help offset the cost of your new one. The problem is it is originally a low torque starter. I think it has been rebuilt as a high torque by changing the armature and fields. There is probably another round hole in the case that has been filled and a new higher hole drilled to take the HT fields. I can't see it in the photo, but I think if you look you will see it. The vet owners usually want an original part and not one that has been modified, but it is possible someone would want the correct number with high torque fields and armature. Might be worth a try to ebay it.
When I removed the old starter, the yellow wire from the harness was connected to the solenoid. The car was converted to HEI by the P.O. It's my understanding that with HEI, the yellow wire is no longer needed, correct? I didn't think to trace it back to find the other end of it. Is there even anything for it to be connected to on an HEI?
No, the HEI doesn't have a spot for that wire. On my car, I bundled the wire and stashed it behind the wiper motor (along with the resistor wire) just in case the points distributor ever gets reinstalled.
Is it a large cap HEI or a points replacement module in the stock distributor? Make sure you have power in both the start and run key positions at the HEI Batt terminal before removing that wire.
Eric, I found the heat shield sleeving at the local Advance Auto. Pricey stuff, but it'll ease my mind to have it back on there. The HEI is a large cap, but I haven't honestly spent much time messing with it. It just seems to work.
Thanks for the info on the starter, Stellar. I'll have to look at the end of the motor again. I don't remember seeing a filled hole for a field lead, but I won't be surprised to find one now. Either way, I'm guessing the core charge is probably as much as I'd get by it selling it unless I happened across one of the four guys with a '61 Vette who just wants those numbers.
Kenneth, I'll probably see if I can find the other end of that yellow wire to see what was done with it. Thanks for confirming my assumptions. I expect that when the distributor and coil were changed out the P.O. just didn't bother to remove the wire from the starter. Can't say I blame him.
Just a quick update:
Got the starter changed out and all the new cables installed, and this thing now cranks like crazy. It turns over at least as fast as Pat's (1970CS) in the video he posted. Huge difference. No shims were under the old starter, and no new ones were needed. Since I had the flywheel shroud moved out of the way, I checked the clearance between the flywheel and pinion, and it was perfect.
The new 1/0 cables from Battery Cables USA are great. As big as they are (almost double the diameter of the cables I replaced), they are still very flexible. No measurable voltage drop across them, either. They were a very tight fit in some of the cable clips and retainers. I like the military-style battery clamps. Cables are easy to remove without taking the clamps off the battery posts.
The yellow wire was wrapped back up to the harness at the distributor end. Rather than trying to do something with it at the starter solenoid, I just reconnected it. I couldn't think of a better way to secure it out of the way.
Very pleased with all of this. Now if I can improve my brakes, I'll be a very happy camper...
Thanks to all for the info, advice, and suggestions. Much appreciated.
Glad your able to move on to the next item. When you get a chance take your old starter apart if you still have it. Check the back of the solenoid (disc) and the condition of the brushes.
Hey, Eric. When I opened up the motor, the brushes looked good, with lots of life left. But the motor case had tons of carbon and copper filings inside. I had already sent it back for the core credit before I saw your suggestion to check the solenoid.
For the net cost of the rebuilt starter (+/- $50), I don't think it would have made sense to rebuild the old one unless it had some historical significance to the car.
