yeahbuddy

Hi everyone,

Back story: This may end up being a novel so I will write a quick paragraph at the bottom for those without patience to read. I'll try to keep it to a minimum. I've had a 1968 Cutlass Supreme Holiday Sedan 4 door for around 6 years now. I bought it from a guy that was in the Navy who wanted it gone. I found the rebuild sheet for it and it's been in California all it's life. It's been painted and restored at some point I am assuming. I found a receipt from Alpha Beta super market dated 1990 so I am guessing somewhere around there. Over the last year or so I have been slowly falling out of love with the car. Mainly because of how it feels when I drive it. It has drum brakes all around which have gone soft on me 3 times over the years. The gearing and trans is setup more for cruising. Almost rare to go beyond 3k RPM. It has air shocks in the rear and Moog springs which make the car feel like a boat in some ways. It sways, it creaks, it squeeks and I don't feel like I am glued to the ground in any way really. The bench seat isn't comfortable, the carpet is shredded, the headliner is gone. It's got a single exhaust pipe.

My thought process: I put thought into what I want to do here. Should I sell it? Should I just get something newer and be able to drive long distances without firmed gripping on to my steering wheel while driving? Should I trade it for a motorcycle and not worry about the headaches of parking and gas? I slept on it and then woke up with the idea that I want to put around $4k over time and turn it into a safe sleeper. I don't know if that budget is ridiculously low or not but I don't want to drop more money into the car. I just want it to be safe and run STRONG. I can worry about the body and interior later down the road. I figure the only thing that will keep my interest in the car is if it is safe and fun to drive. I want it to feel like a muscle car.

About the car: The motor is a 350 Rocket with a 2 door Jet-Away transmission. The motor has run solid since the day I got it. It is strong and I haven't had many issues with it. I've changed the carb to an Edelbrock 650cfm with matching intake. Replaced other parts over the years as they have failed on it. These include radiator, alternator, fuel pump, water pump, cooling fan, battery, electronic ignition, and some other minor things.

The end goal: The end goal is to spend around $4k and turn the car into a beast. I'd like to possibly take it to the drag strip we have locally and have some fun. I am not looking for something ridiculously blown out here. The main goal is to have a car that is SAFE and FUN. I am thinking something along the lines of disc brakes, 4 speed transmission, new gearing (posi?), headers w/ dual exhaust, his/her floor shifter, new suspension setup (bilstein?), light engine modding and tuning? I always thought a 4 bucket seat drag car would be awesome to take friends along with.

I need help figuring out exactly how to get this done and what order I should do it in? Is the budget reasonable? Can you suggest parts with price ranges? Is it possible to achieve my goals here or should I just let it go. I know if I sell the car I will end up regretting it down the road. The potential is there. I get comments all the time on it being a nice car. It just looks nice from far but is far from nice. Help me guys.

I am also still pretty young and not that experienced so go easy on me here. I've learned tons over the last 6 years and continue to learn more everyday.

tru-blue 442

I would start with a TH 350 for that 3rd gear. That alone will make it more
enjoyable to drive. And it bolts right in as well.Should not set you back more than a grand. And yes, go for a front disc brake conversion, you won't regret it. It is probably due for a front end rebuild anyway, squeaking is usually a sign of front upper a frame bushings wearing out. You may be able to get out for less than a grand on that too, if you don't mind doing some of the work yourself. Good luck with her.

yeahbuddy

Thank you for your reply. My thought is to start with the transmission and exhaust as well. I'm just in need to find someone with knowledge who can help me lay out some kind of plan. I just don't know how to take it there and what it will cost me. Need pointers on gearing ratio, sizing of parts and so forth.

MDchanic

TLDR.



How many times a week do you "do it"?



Define "gone soft on me." That is not a known characteristic or failure mode of drum brakes.



Which is what the car was designed to do.



Those suck.



These are all fairly normal for one of these cars, even when they were new.
As Tru-Blu pointed out, bad front end bushings can creak and squeak as well.



That is not your problem.



I'll give you a hundred bucks for it.



If you want to drive a new car, you should get a new car.



Sure. But you can't use the "safety" arguments you repeat below if you do.



In what way is it not safe?



Define "run STRONG."



It's a four-door sedan with a standard engine.



Why?



Ain't gonna happen.



Fun at the dragstrip = Big Bucks or great personal skills.



My suggestions:

• 700R4 transmission - close to a bolt-in, and will improve both performance and highway cruising.
  A 4-speed manual is another possibility, but requires more work, and it sounds like you need to keep it simple.
• Bilstein shocks
• Big sway bars, front and rear
• '92-'98 Jeep Grand Cherokee steering box, or equivalent
• Replace all suspension bushings and ball joints, probably with urethane, considering all that you've said.
• Check brake drums, replace all shoes, new spring kits all around, check wheel cylinders, check master cylinder, adjust brakes carefully
• Don't install dual exhausts until you've built the engine to make use of them
• Install a darned headliner.

That will get you in somewhere around your budget, and will probably make you happy.

- Eric

yeahbuddy

Haha Eric, you are one funny guy. I knew you were going to rip me a new one. Although it's tough love. I can answer all those if you are genuinely looking for the answers. I appreciate your suggestion on the setup.

MDchanic

Eh. I have to point out subjective or vague statements.

Nothing personal, it's just that internet discussions can fly all over the place when they are about very specific things - when they're about things that can be interpreted in different ways, they can just get completely confusing for everyone, including the OP.

But, seriously, if you answer the specific questions, we will be able to give you more useful answers. Even if you don't, though, you should think about them, as they will help you to think about what it is that you really want out of your car.

Basically, when set up "as new," all of these cars feel soft and imprecise. That's just the way they were designed.
There are a number of things you can do to mitigate that, which I've listed, and I suspect that if you do them, you'll feel like the car is okay.

Drum brakes do not perform as well as disks at the extremes, but in day-to-day use, they are just fine, so long as they're in good shape and well adjusted. You can re-do all of them within a few hours, for very little money, and I would strongly recommend it.

Good luck!

- Eric

yeahbuddy

5-6x a week. Daily driver to commute to work and local driving. My only car. It did sit for 7 months though while the brakes were out of service. Got it back up and running for a month now.


Leaking wheel cylinders. The pedal went soft as in it hit the floor and the brake light on the dash would come on. It would barely stop. It's happened 3 times so far but from cheap quality parts not knowing any better.


No.

Not necessarily. Just explaining what my though process was when debating if the car was worth holding on to.

I had one of the front control arm bolts snap on me while going down hill a few years back. The wheel bent inward. Thankfully I was only going 10mph but if it were to have happened at a faster rate the car may have spun out. That just scared me a little bit from lack of knowledge and not knowing what else is weak.


Just tuned and running proper. Quick response and fast acceleration. Tightened suspension.


Ya, I know. It's nothing fancy but I have it and it runs. It would make a nice sleeper.

The threading on my Quadrajet fuel inlet was stripped and leaking. At the time I didn't have much money to spend to get it rebuilt locally. I found a deal on a new Edelbrock and a used intake. Since then I've found a number matching replacement Quadrajet but it needs to be rebuilt. I would eventually like to put it back on the car.


Thank you again for your time Eric. You helped me once again. I'm just trying to start somewhere and gathering as much information on the topic here will just get me moving in that right direction.

MDchanic

Yeah, Baby!



Now that you've got that straightened out, they should be fine.
Defective disk brakes suck, too.



Darn.



Good. You're nice and clear on what your can expect.



Yeah, you need to go through the whole front end and be sure all is well.
They are definitely NOT supposed to do that.



You should go through a thorough engine check and tune-up - confirm TDC mark, check compression, go through ignition system with a fine toothed comb, including advance mechanisms, have a close look at the carburetor.




Hey, I like four-doors, but a muscle car it will never be, so why twist yourself up trying to make it one?
If you want a muscle car, do what's needed and get one, and then you'll be happy.
If not, then relax and don't worry about it.



Fair enough.

Rebuild kits are not expensive, and you definitely CAN rebuild it yourself, so long as you're patient and have a clear place to work.
I'd strongly recommend it.



You're welcome. I'm glad to contribute what I can.

Just wait until others pitch in...

- Eric

oldcutlass

Well Eric pretty much covered all the issues and real world advice. I'm going to add that $4kis not going to get you the car you want. The other issue is its your primary mode of transportation and long down time I'm assuming is a detriment to you earning a living. The other issue is $4k won't get you anything much better.

Yellowstatue

Actually, your car is a 'Holiday' four door hardtop, and on a Supreme, a four barrel carb is standard as compared to the Cutlass two barrel.

yeahbuddy

Well, the down time was out of frustration honestly. I just hit this point where I didn't want to deal with it. I took other means of transportation to work and yeah, it did effect my schedule but I saved from not burning gas at 11mpg. 4k was my plan over a period of time. The harsh reality is sinking in. I think I'm just more confused on what to do at this point.

yeahbuddy

Yes, that is correct. It is the post less Holiday Sedan with a 350 Rocket and 4bbl Quadrajet.

yeahbuddy

I always wondered if he finished this build. It was the closest thing I found to mine.

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-resto-uk.html

oldcutlass

Send him pm or an email

yeahbuddy

I was wondering what is a fair price to expect on a 700R4 installed? How much more work is it to go from a column shifter to automatic floor shifter vs column shifter to manual floor shifter?

hookem horns

Restoring most old cars is not logical, especially a fairly low value 4-door. Most of us here acknowledge and embrace this problem with our hobby/addiction. If you want logic, sell the car for $3-4k, add in your $4k restoration budget and buy a 5-10 year old car that will out perform and out handle most old cars and get twice the MPG doing so.

Still in? My advice would be to leave the engine alone and focus on drive-ability. Sounds like it runs decent and more real HP (not just a load exhaust) will kill your budget. Transmission and rear end will help the most but also cost the most, with a TH350 most cost effective. Steering, brakes and suspension work suggested above can be done over time and not too expensively if DIY. I've found great help on this site as you knock down the actual projects and good luck whatever direction you go.

yeahbuddy

What do you guys think this is worth? He claims $400 in backed up DMV fees.

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb...313054103.html

oldcutlass

Your going in the wrong direction.

yeahbuddy

I am exploring all my options here. I have to do mostly all research on my own as I mentioned I don't have any type of mentor to teach me other than this forum. Trying to figure out if its worth getting a 2 door shell and moving everything over in the long run.

oldcutlass

If you want to keep an older car its always better for it to be a second car when its a project. Do you have a garage?

yeahbuddy

No. I would pay for monthly storage somewhere locally.

oldcutlass

Apparently you really like this car which is the first step to being afflicted in the car hobby. It runs well, correct? Interior and exterior is pleasing to the eye and in decent shape and it has a good stance. I would do weekend projects and start with checking the front end components and only replace whats worn. Figure out what is rattling, squeaking, etc. Then I would invest in a mellow duel exhaust and new shocks. A muffler shop can add the other pipe and decent mufflers inexpensively. Detail it well and just keep driving and maintaining it.

Major projects are better when they are not your primary mode of transport. They take time and more importantly money. Your car is a cool car and I remember when you first bought it. I'd just press on the way you've been going.

yeahbuddy

Yes, time does fly. I can't believe it's already been 6 years and 25k miles later since I made the purchase. A lot of this is thinking out loud as I find myself in a tough spot. I have a car that is more in the good than the bad as far as looks and drivability. This is what makes decision making difficult. A couple mechanics over the years told me that I should continue to drive it with the condition it's in they say I have a good car. It would be easier for me to move on if it didn't run well or look good. It definitely has a majority of its work already done which is appealing when I think if the upgrades I can make to tune it to be something a little more what I am after. I just don't have the time, space or money to go all out and just buy another car (new or old) so I want to make the right choice.

The more I put thought into it, Erics suggestion is sounding the most practical to get the car to a level where I would be satisfied having it as my daily cruiser.
If I am going to drive a 68 everyday then I want to have fun doing it. That's basically my point. I can feel the power in the 350 but the car doesn't push like it should because of the trans. Thats probably the best place to start as I will get an idea if it's worth going further after I get the trans swapped.

MDchanic

That two-door is an unknown POS money pit.

You already have a nice car. Why would you swap that for a potential nightmare?

Like Eric said, do some systematic evaluation and upgrading on your car, little by little, and you'll have a great car that you like to drive.

But don't waste your money on dual exhausts yet - they won't contribute a thing to performance at this stage, and you'll never know they're there from inside the car.

(and, yes, I did put duals on my car, even though I knew they wouldn't help performance much, but, listen to me: Do as I say, not as I do.)

- Eric

oldcutlass

It will sound better with the duals and all that's involved is deleting and capping the cross over, removing the stock muffler, running an additional pipe down the other side, and adding a couple of glass packs. The problem with a 700R4 trans is he does not have the gear ratio for the overdrive. I would go with T350 for the better 1st gear, then he can feel the power.

White_Knuckles

Actually that Jetaway 2-speed may have the "switch pitch" torque converter like mine? There's a throttle linkage activated switch that energizes a trans solenoid to engage a second set of fins in the torque converter. This "passing gear" affect doesn't hit until wide open throttle by the factory setup. With the engine swap and all the aftermarket stuff on mine the linkage would never trip the factory switch. I had to relocate the activate switch to a carb linkage bracket. I had never kicked in this secret gear. I adjusted the switch to trigger as the secondary barrels start opening. That thing is like a secret gear between 1st and 2nd which is way fun.

With the 4bbl rolling on, my 350 digs down in the torque basement and scoots. The down shift is predictable and friends are amazed at the kick it adds. Won't rebuild this trans and a TH350 is in the plan but until she blows up - great push for low bucks. You have to move the switching point to get the fun.

The B&M linkage "pull" switch was about $20.00. Lokar has a bracket that mounts to a rear carb bolt for the switch. Move the 2 wires from the factory rotating "clock" switch to this baby, set her to trigger just past 3/4 throttle and you're done. Click - Wheeee.

oldcutlass

In 68 the ST300 did not use a variable vane torque converter, it was just a 2 speed. It only has a kick down switch.

MDchanic

Absolutely true, it WILL sound better.
Just a question of priorities, really - does he want it to drive better, or does he want it to sound better?
Not for me to decide.


No way, José. 200R4 1st gear — 2.74:1, TH350 1st gear — 2.52:1.
Top gear is a 0.67:1 OD, which will give him something like a 1.7 or 1.8:1 final drive equivalent, which is great for highway cruising.

- Eric

oldcutlass

I meant that the T350 has a better first gear than the ST300. His rear end ratio may not support an Odrive trans.

wr1970

As nice as that car is it is good to have a problem like yours! With that said i agree with the mufflers and duel exhaust. Then get some disc brakes up front as was mentioned before. Check shocks and front bushing for upper control arms for squeaking was already mentioned. Then if need more Getty up go change transmission as was mentioned. Then if you are not satisfied drop in a 455 ci eng but then you will have a new problem! Gas for a 455 not as cheep to drive as a 350 but will turn your car into a beast! Many guys here have given good advice in this thread. I like the 350 in your car.The 455 is a JMO i am biased because i run BBO motors in all my Oldsmobiles and one is street one is for racing.

MDchanic

If he has a 2.73 rear (just a wild guess for a 4-door without a towing package), and he uses 225/70x14 tires, he will turn 2,435 RPM with a TH350 and 1,625 RPM with a 200R4.
For a stock-type engine with a low torque band, that should be great, and improve fuel economy.

- Eric

White_Knuckles

Those Rats! That was the only cool-factor, great engineering concept that actually works. Without switch pitch, that bugger would scream like a banshee kicking down to low at RPM!

Back to the TH350.

yeahbuddy

Thanks for all the replies guys. I am reading them a few soaking it all in. Seems like some are for 700r4 and some are for TH350.

Between these two is the TH350 the most cost effective and easiest to get installed? I don't know my exact gearing. Closet I got was when I changed my gear oil couple years bagk.