This past weekend I installed a new remanufactured 10:1 steering gear in my 72 olds.

This is a form fit replacement made for this application the only obvious difference is three mounting holes vs 4 mount holes (only 3 used) in the original gear.

First test drive the car shows poor return to center after a left or right turn and the steering effort feel is like 4-5x harder to turn from the stock box.(its hard to quantify a feel) but its harder than any car I have ever driven including rack and pinion FWD w no power assist

I called the tech support line and got a few questions asked and answered and the final result was its a new gear needs time to break in like a 100 miles or so. I have driven it 20 miles so far and maybe it returns more to center now than intially but still doesnt completely RTC.

prior to the new reman gear install the car drove straight and RTC easily (by itself w no driver input) and the the steering effort was minimal.

Earlier this year I replaced all front control arm bushings and ball joints added a 1.25" fr sw bar, the shocks are recent, the steering linkages (tie rod end, ctr link, etc) do not exhibit any play. Additionaly the fluid is full and the pump belt is adjusted and the pump does not whine or make abnormal noises. The reason for replacement was the faster ratio, some slop in old gear, and the old gear leaked from more than one seal.

I ordered thru rock auto and i talked to the manufacturer on the phone, there is a lifetime warrenty on the gear

My question is should I continue to drive the car more to see if it does loosen up to normal feel (steering effort and return to center) or should I pull it and return it. any opinions or experiences are welcome

 

Did you over tighten the joint at the pitman arm? Other than that, they might have overtightened the wormgear adjustment when it was rebuilt, how much play is in the steering wheel? I do know that some of the newer style close ratio steering boxes do feel way different than the normal stock Olds.

 

Did you really get a 10:1 steering box? or is that a typo?
10:1 would be ridiculously stiff. how many turns lock to lock?

Can you send us a link to what you bought? I think you got the wrong box.

Performance boxes for A-body's are 12:7:1 ratio- and are usually stiffer than stock and depending on your alignment specs (caster) may need more assistance to return to center. Personally I like that feel and don't mind the return to center issue... but I Can't even imagine how hard a 10:1 box would be.

Stock boxes were 16:1, and had the "pinky steer" light effort.

 

Not to sound annoying (seeing as how I have no personal information to provide to answer the actual question), but wouldn't a tighter-ratio box make the car return easier to center?

That is to say, by definition, a mechanical force reduction ratio (Work = Force x Distance) that makes a movement "easier" on one end, will make it "harder" on the other end.
For instance, a 4.11 rear gear makes it "easier" for the engine to turn the wheels, but "harder" for the wheels to turn the engine. The engine "sees" a 4.11:1 ratio, but the wheels "see" a 1:4.11 ratio.
In this case, having fewer turns lock-to-lock makes the steering feel stiffer, because the wheels have an easier time turning the steering wheel in the way that they "want" to go, so it should return to center more easily.

Therefore, the trouble centering is the thing that would concern me, though, as I said, I have no experience with tight steering boxes, and have never heard of a 10:1 box on a GM car (thought it was a typo, myself).

- Eric

 

That sounds logical, however, I'm just speaking from my experience and that may be flawed.

I do know that the wheel self centering is a function / result of the front end geometry, specifically the caster- which also can impact steering effort.

I think if you had aftermarket upper control arms that allowed more positive caster to be added, it would eliminate the return to center issues w/ the performance steering boxes.. but thats a whole different discussion.

For now, and for Retro ranger, i'd like to know if he did indeed get a 10:1 box- if he did, that is the root of all his problems.

If he got a 12.7:1 box, and just doesn't like the feel, that's slightly different, and I'd recommend just driving it and getting used to it.

Sounds to me though, like he really just wanted another stock ratio box 16:1 pinky steer box that was rebuilt.

If thats the case... I'd return the rock auto box, and send his original box to RedHead http://www.redheadsteeringgears.com/ and have it rebuilt.

 

All thanks for the interest;

the box is indeed marketed as a 10:1 ratio. it is a lares 974 box they offer two 10:1 ratio boxes for my 72 cutlass stock type w 4 hole mount or 3 hole mount for ~$50 less

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=3026013

shows the lares 974 I linked to from rock auto.

I bought this thinking it will increase the steering effort somewhat and to remedy the issues w the original gear.

The steering effort is hard(er) than I want but I dont want it as easy as it was somewhere in between is good the return to center is not good.

no wheel geometry changes were made I only changed the steering gear. it is stock front control arms and shafts

no obvious issues before gear change now very high effort to turn the wheel and doesnt return to center

I was shooting for the jeep GC box mod feel without the unknown of a JY box and metric/sae hose stuff

there is no direct link to the lares 974, but if you go to rockauto click olds, 72, cutlass, then steering then steering gear there are many options two signifcant ones are lares 972 (4 hole) 10:1 and lares 974 3 hole 10:1

IDK how many turns lock to lock but not much different than the ~2.75 it was before

 

I was able to leave the pitman attached to the linkage because I unbolted the box and was able to move the pitman out of the way to lower the box out....install was reverse of removal so no pitman changes

it does feel as tho the preload is to tight

 

It was 2 3/4 turns BEFORE you did the upgrade?

Stock was nearly 3 3/4 turns lock to lock. Sounds like someone had monkeyed with your old box too.

10:1 is way too aggressive a gear for a street car- IMO. If you google steering boxes for A-body's I doubt your are going to find very many people running a box that tight. I'm very surprised they list that as a stock replacement.

If i were buying a new box, i'd buy the AGR 12.7:1 box from summit. $400

My neighbor just put one on his 66 chevelle. it steers like his '06 mercedes now.

Lee Engineering is another source that builds performance boxes. Would be worth a call to Tom Lee, just to get his opinion on what you have vs what you want.

 

Since you ruled out the pitman arm, is there any freeplay in the steering wheel. The only other question, did it put your steering column shaft in a bind, or did everything line up nice. If everything looks good, then put some miles on it and then call tech service back.

 

Good point, I had tight steering on a BMW after changing the rack - turned out to be a tight steering column U-joint.

The two questions I would ask to be able to troubleshoot this are:
How many turns lock-to-lock is it at now? and
If the front wheels are jacked completely off the ground, is it still tight?

- Eric

 

IIRC originally it was just under 3 turns lock to lock. The gear I took out appears to be original, if there is a way to verify this LMK I have that gear still.

I would just pop for the AGR but its 4 bills this gear was/is just under 200 after core charge

The Jeep GC mod runs about 50-75 less +- w a used box I thought i was making a good choice here (maybe not IDK)

The gear appears to be the same physical size I was able to fit it in w out any drama exactly where I took the old box out, bolts lined up nice it came w a new couple to replace the new coupler I had on there (different input shaft size on new box)

the play feels like its minimal but its hard to be sure because of the RTC if I leave it slightly left its stays there slightly right it stays there so you cant really feel for on center play because the wheels stay where you turn (to some extent)

lock to lock now is 2.5 turns or a smidge under that

when i bled the system the wheels (in the air) turned easy enough side to side. i didnt try them in the air after the install w the car running. Its not a tilt column so IDT there is a u joint in it ? IDK for sure tho. The steering wheel did turn easily by grabbing the column above the coupler by hand as we fidgited to get the coupler in place the sliding section of the column slid up and down OK....if there is a u joint would it be like a tight lose tight loose thing as the steering wheel turned ? Its not like that its like a tight tight thing

I drove it another ~25 miles tonite and *maybe* it is getting better, at speeds of 45 mph plus it feels OK except for the RTC is not perfect but maybe its better it will stay cocked slightly off ctr if I just turn it slightly. The effort at speed is OK not as easy as I want but not really so hard that its not livable.

At slow speeds the RTC is bad ie in a P lot or thru a small town it requires effort to bring the thing back to center where you would just expect it to roll back by itself, and the steering effort is more noticable

I visited the lares site again and thru their IM feature I asked the same questions and got the same answer as when I called, its new its tight give it a 100miles or so. The IM acct name was someone w a surname of Lares (and it may have been the same guy that answered the phone in the morning cuz I got the same answer)

so its been about 50 miles so far. it may have improved some since my first drive or I may be more used to it. the fact is its still hard(er) than i want and the RTC is dangerous at slow speeds and annoying at higher speeds. I might take it to work tomorrow ~60 miles (for about 110 total)and then see where its at.

eric I will try to jack it in the air to check for binding when i get home+ tomorrow

rambow can you offer any more info on more positive caster for better RTC w performance boxes I have not heard of this before ? ie how much

and to all thanks for your comments and suuggestions so far

 

If you add more caster it will increase the tendancy for the wheels to want return to running straight. The higher the speed the more pressure. The problem with the older car alignment specs is they were originally set to a more negative number, to make the steering easier for the little old bluehaired ladies and flabby arms.

 

True, but if the caster was alright before the new box was put in, then it should be alright now.

He shouldn't have to muscle it straight at low speeds, and if it's that tight, the amount of caster needed to rectify it would make it impossible for him to ever turn off a highway at highway speeds.

- Eric

 

Quote "rambow can you offer any more info on more positive caster for better RTC w performance boxes I have not heard of this before ? ie how much"


I agree with you Eric, I was answering his question to Rambow!

 

I'll say it again. The issues you are having are a direct result of the 10:1 ratio of that box. The box isn't defective, its just not the right ratio for a street car, and i have no clue why they advertised it as that. The boxes are universal and can have any number of combinations of gears & valves in them and bolt up to the car. Doesn't make it "right".

The "issue" won't go away with time or break in, as that is how a box with that ratio is supposed to feel.

Go drive the car on the freeway at speed- i'll bet your return to center problems go away. The box is geared such that it just takes too much effort when the wheels are not spinning.

Do yourself a favor and do some research on Chevelles.com & protouring.com for steering box upgrades. Or google & call Tom Lee / Lee Engineering.

 

Unfortunately i don't know enough about the steering geometry specifics to explain the castor & its effect on steering...if that makes any sense. I have it in my head, but don't know enough to explain it back w/o getting a bunch of stuff wrong.

There have been some good articles in the car magazines lately. Google "Popular Hot Rodding castor" or just "castor" and should come up iwth some info

As I said above though... the root of the issue here is NOT his alignment specs. They can contribute to or aid some of the return to center issue, but Its the ratio of the box he is using that is causing the main issue.

 

OK so I drove my car to work yesterday. Total mileage on the new box is now ~115 miles.

The steering effort is still high (relatively speaking compared to original) the return to center is OK at speeds above ~30 mph.

At 30mph to highway speeds there are really no issues any more car goes straight and RTC is fine

In low speed P lot manuevers the poor RTC really shows this also shows in city street type driving like when leaving a side street go straight for a short distance on another street and turn into another side street. Not to say the steering stays fully turned in slow speed moves (w out driver input) it just doesnt fully RTC

all that said i think ben hit it on the head w "The issues you are having are a direct result of the 10:1 ratio of that box."

from the initial install to now the feel is much improved, but for me its not the right box as my car is a summer driver and I use it all the time around town and to work etc (its not my primary driver tho). If I mostly drove highway and secondary highway it would be fine, but as it is I will be reviewing my options for replacement.

thanks guys for the support, insights and info

 

AN update

I have about 350miles on the box now, I was going to return it but the more I drove it the better it felt.

So now at speeds (~45 mph +) the feel is very good similar to my late model truck w power rack and pinion. It has good return to center and good on center feel.

At low speeds (10-30mph) the steering wheel now returns to center and my earlier concerns have evaporated.

The only time the steering feels heavier than you would want is at a near or dead stop once moving say at 10mph or better the car is better than the original and feels very good

I will put the official RR seal of approval on the lares 974 box as a good upgrade to the original box and a viable alternative to the jeep box mod.

with no core it is about $220 to your door w a new coupler. it fits the stock hoses and to all but the most informed olds enthusiast looks like the stock box...I think the core charge was $35 but I kept my original box so all told about $220 for me

oh yeah lifetime warrenty on the box from lares which BTW is an american company so made (remanufactured) in USA

 

Well good, glad to hear it worked out!

 

Great information. Thanks!

- Eric

 

Hallo,
i`m Bjoern and saw this thread about the LARES #974 power steering gear box.

I have an 1965 Pontiac Bonneville with 17:1 3.75 turns...and like to buy the #974 ...but nor sure to do ...alternative LARES offering the #973 ..not sure how many turns this unit have .. i think that`s the #970 "76" with coupler.

I have an 1965 Impala, too. I added an 2.5 turn PS gear box 6 years ago from powerconversions and i`m very satisfield with .. on german highways and streets it`s a very good perform and perfect handling with the car. It`s very safe in your hand.
Only one negative: The car has a little more radius.

So Eric, would you say the #974 is a good deal?

What is with the #973 ? Anybody knows more about the turns?? 3-3.5 ??

You can email me Ponti65@t-online.de

 

I had a 72 Buick Riviera and after the steering box was replaced it was stiff. It eventually went back to the easy one finger steering like before. I was disappointed at first because I do like the smooth easy rotation. My 68 442 steering box is leaking and will probably have to be replaced soon. I will be expecting the same stiffness on this one too.
Dave

 

Hey Bjoern

I don't know anything about the lares 973, you can email or call lares I did both and was very happy w their customer service. Their info is on their website...www.larescorp.com

Rims I recommend the 974 for your car I'm happy w mine

 

I have to say, I don't know anything specific about the Lares steering boxes either.
I put a Jeep Grand Cherokee box from the junkyard in mine (works great, by the way).

- Eric

 

Nice thread, did not want start a new on on the same subject.

So for a non super technical newbie, can I just install, recommended above, the:

1972 OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS SUPREME AGR Performance Resto Steering Boxes 492117

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ag...utlass-supreme

Not too concerned about keeping cost down, just ease of installation is my main concern.

Would I need additional lines/etc, or is this fully compatible with my 1972 Cutlass Supreme.

New 72 Cutlass Supreme car purchase, steering is loose, lots of play, hard to keep straight/in lane on highway, does not RTC to well, looking to tighten up steering.

Thanks

 

summit shows it as a non universal style item so it should bolt right up. The tricky part seems to be the rag joint, my lares unit came w a rag joint for the application, I didnt see anyhting about the stock rag joint not fitting so it might work w no issues, I would contact AGR to be sure.

from summit:

Universal: No

Make: OLDSMOBILE

Model: CUTLASS SUPREME

Submodel: BASE

Beginning Year: 1967

Ending Year: 1974

 

One of my friends just installed the Lars 1353 Jeep box in his 70 supreme. He got it from Rock Auto for $105 including core charge and shipping. He bought the conversion fittings from Lee Engineering, and used the steering coupler/rag joint from a Chevy truck, Dorman# 31011. Very easy swap, less than $200 for everything. He said the steering feel is exactly the same as the stock box, which was surprising to me, I figured it would stiffen it up a little, and just a hair over 3 turns lock to lock.