What's happening there breaks my heart. Still have family up there. They're safe, but out on Reisterstown Road they're only a few miles away from it.

I spent part of 1968 summer there with an aunt who lived off York Road and saw the aftermath of the 1968 riots. At age 12 I remember thinking why would people burn down their own neighborhoods.

Two years later aunt and uncle retired early from SSA and left Baltimore. They'd been there 34 years.

 

All that I've seen of Baltimore was from the tv series "The Wire". I get that not all of Baltimore looks like that (a ghetto) but it has such a high crime rate I wouldn't want to be there.

 

^^^Agreed, very sad. Is there any truth to the news media claim of 50% unemployment?

 

I grew up just below there. Lived there 51 years. At one time it was a great city. I heard 30-35 % unemployment among blacks now. There are some great people there, and trying not to be political, it has been ruled by democrats the last 30 years or more. I fear it is becoming like Detroit. Baltimore lost a lot of manufacturing in the last 30 years.

 

I have visited the area a few times 10+ years ago for ball games and there was a great night life downtown. Me and my buddies had some good times there!

I don't think we will ever be back!
I think this country's has some serious problems and it's only going to get worse!

 

> it's only going to get worse.

I think you're on to something, Steve. We've seen these Baltimore-type things happening over and over again, and they are becoming more and more frequent. There's a common undertone: people don't like the way they're being treated. It used to be impossible to substantiate people's claims of such extreme misbehavior, and the claims that people were making seemed so outlandish that nobody could believe them, which made it easy to ignore them. Now that there's a movie camera in everybody's pocket, we're starting to see evidence of some very disturbing trends captured on video. Over and over again.

People everywhere don't like what they're seeing. I found that video of a corpse with a broken neck being dragged into a paddy wagon to be particularly troubling. The American news coverage keeps referring to the broken neck as some sort of vague "spine injury", and quotes politicians who characterize the people's response as "senseless violence." I'm sure that the participants don't view their actions as senseless, they view them as purposeful. Those rioting people have decided that they're not going to take it anymore, and they're using a riot to promote awareness of the problem. They hope that people like us will stop disbelieving what's going on, or not caring about what's going on, and call for a change. They believe that unless there is widespread awareness there will never be a widespread call for change, and the situation will never improve.

I've followed the Baltimore thing on the nightly news, where it gets only a few minutes of one-sided coverage in a newscast. The reports always characterize the riots as being the senseless actions of unruly people. On the night of the Baltimore the riot I happened to stumble upon the BBC's European newscast while I was doing some late night channel surfing. The BBC spent the first 20 minutes of the 30 minute news show just on the Baltimore riots. It was the lead story in the international news. These events are getting far more coverage overseas than they are getting here in the USA, and the Eurpoean newscasts are giving out far more information about the people involved than the American newscasts. After the riots, the BBC gave the final 10 minutes of their 20 minute coverage to air a speech by one of the Black ministers who was calling for peaceful change. He said that his community was willing to accept responsibility for their part of the problem, but that it wasn't going to get better until everyone else was willing to admit that a problem existed, and accepted their responsibility for being the other part of the problem. It's sad that here in America we're not hearing these voices when the rest of the world is hearing them.

 

First, listen to this song (unless you prefer Guy Lombardo and Mitch Miller, that is), and then I'll tell you when it was recorded:



Second, without being political, I will second Bob P's statement:
Some folks just plain get a raw deal, and there's darned little they can do about it, and, no, they're not angels (I'm sure not either), but sometimes something happens that just sets them off, and I can't really blame them.

In this case, according to what I read, this guy had his neck broken because he "made eye contact with a Lieutenant" and then ran away. I'm sorry, but that just ain't right. Add to that a long history of documented cases of the "Bal'mo'" PD being a bunch of real SOBs, and the result is not surprising.





By the way, for those wondering, Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention released the song "Trouble Every Day" on the album "Freakout!" in 1966 after the Watts riots.
I doubt that even Frank would have imagined it would have applied so well half a century later.

As the song says, "... I bet there won't be many [who] live to see it really end..."

- Eric

 

That doesn't surprise me. I've had several of Chicago's Finest confide in me that anyone who runs away and makes them chase him down is going to get a beating. That's just the way it is -- if you run, you get a beating. It's an unwritten official policy. When they shoot you, the ambulance will bypass the closest hospitals, taking you to one far away.

The reputation of the state of Maryland is infamous. Even people in the midwest are aware of Maryland's reputation.

Watts doesn't seem like it was 50 years ago. I must be getting old.

 

I am no fan of the police, but before burning down your own neighborhood you should at least wait until the facts are out. Look at Fergusen, MO. After all investigation, including the feds, the officer was found justified. Baltimore has a black majority police force and city government that did not protect law abiding people in the looting and arson that occurred. The same thing happened in LA.
What business wants to have a store in that area? Who would want to live there if you have a choice?
Sorry, I will stay out of this and unsubscibe this thread as I will not be able to refrain from comment.

 

O.K. gotta expose my chin.


Obviously we don't know all the answers but I'll pose some Q's directed towards Mr Gray's situation.


What was Freddie's class standing in high school?


What was his attendance record?


What was his community service record? (excluding that which was forced upon by legal system)


How did he prepare for his last job interview?


What did he wear to such an interview?


Did he provide a resume or accurately, completely & legibly fill out an application?


Has his past conduct been so good that no policeman other than a friend would recognize him or his typical mode of operation?


Was his conduct in his final situation exemplory of basic standards of citizenship?


If he had been at his "traditional" place of work, would he have had anything to fear from Police personnel?


I don't know the answer to any of these questions but have some ideas & opinions.


No Jobs. B.F'n.S. I could have a job inside of half a day even if I lacked so much as a G.E.D.


He can make more off the govt than working. That should never be but it is WAY out of my control & nobody forces you to take it, "they" just encourage it.


No Dad. Not my F'n problem unless someone like him makes it my problem in which case I would be more than happy to deliver a response that would make the police look gracious.


He be makin' much bank livin "da thug life." Exactly my point. That choice brings with it certain occupational hazards which caught up with Freddie.


Freddie's nature, nurture, intellect, value system, character and above all choices pretty much guaranteed he would R.I.P. - Rest In Peace or Rot In Prison, at least one path prevailed for him.


Couldn't help but think of this video guide to interaction with law enforcement.


https://www.facebook.com/MrTechnical...1094336604605/


Let's get this party started!

 

I think both sides are wrong. Police need serious reform. If you commit crimes to protest crimes, you should be held accountable for your crimes you made in protest. I also believe in lethal force being allowed to defend your property. If that is not allowed, then the people of these communities have no one to blame but themselves for the hell they have created when everyone of worth moves away and no businesses will operate there.

Stuff used to get resolved. Now we just have polarization and separation. I am glad I have 50 states to choose from so I can avoid the bad areas in this country. It takes horrible things to galvanize change, and I don't want to be the one they happen to.

 

I love that video!!

 

Today's news story says he was slamming himself against the inside wall of the van (reported by another inmate in the same van) and his injury matches a bolt on the van. Still some unanswered questions but not quite what it first appeared to be.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2015/04...-him-prob.html

Sources said the medical examiner found Gray's catastrophic injury was caused when he slammed into the back of the police transport van, apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/04/30...ate-offer-few/
Sources told a Baltimore television station that the medical examiner found Freddie Gray died as a result of slamming his head against the inside of a police van, breaking his neck.

The local ABC affiliate WJLA reported sources said the medical examiner’s report, contained in the police report handed over Thursday to the state attorney, found Gray’s wound was consistent with the bolt inside the back of the police van.

 

I agree completely.

In that case, though, while Brown's killing was what set them off, years of real abuse (as documented by the Justice Department investigation) is what they were actually protesting against.
They would never have believed the BS "hands up" story, and would never have gone off like that, if their past experience hadn't told them that the BS story was plausible.

Also, remember that these were all basically kids doing this, and, as we all know, kids do stupid things, especially when other kids are doing them. Again, I'm not saying that they shouldn't be fined, made to clean and rebuild, made to work in the shops for free for a year, or whatever, because they should, but kids do stupid things.


... And Bccan, I don't disagree with you either.
I'm not trying to make excuses for bad behavior, and I'm not saying that that behavior is excusable, just that it is understandable in light of the really bad circumstances, and the really poor (or nonexistent) education that a lot of these kids have.

I'm not saying that these cops have to be everyone's best buddy ("Oh Officer Krupkie, I'm down on my knees, 'cause no one wants a guy with a social disease..."), only that they need to fight at least reasonably fair - look at the guy who got shot in the back in North Carolina: He was far away from the cop, showed no signs of being armed, and was not threatening anybody. Sure, he shouldn't have run away, but you don't shoot him for that, you stay behind him and have backup head him off ("You can't outrun the radio"), then maybe lay on a couple of good shots, and leave it at that - you don't shoot him in the back, and you don't break his neck. Not to sound too idealistic, but this is America, that sort of thing is just not fair, and we try (or used to try) to live up to our reputation of treating everyone fairly and give everyone his day in court.

- Eric

 

Interesting, and plausible.

I am very interested to hear what else comes out, but I suspect that, as in MO, this will be a case of a "poor example" being the spark that started something bigger, not because the "poor example" itself needed to be accurately understood by the rioters, but because they had put up with so much BS already that they were ready to believe anything.

Once again, I'm not saying it's an excuse, just an explanation.

- Eric

 

I'm not interested in any of those personal questions that one of the previous posters would want to ask. Why? Because both the questions and the answers are irrelevant. They aren't facts that are pertinent to the case, and every one of those questions and answers would be inadmissible in court because they are intended to introduce bias and to confuse the jury. They're nothing more than an ad hominem attack on the individual.

Ad hominem is a fallacious form of logic. It's an easy way to form conclusions based upon irrelevant facts when you don't want to argue the relevant facts. Ad hominem arguments are designed to lure people to jump to a "hasty generalization" or a "secundum quid," where you pay attention to the easy to analyze irrelevant facts instead of the difficult to analyze relevant facts. To me it seems much like playing ostrich and sticking your head in the sand.

That said, I don't condone either side's use of violence to solve problems. I can't excuse any of the behavior that I've been seeing today as I spent several hours watching the "autoplay" videos that came up by searching YouTube for "freddie gray". Nobody's making any good arguments that explain away responsibility for what happened.

 

That Chris Rock video is hilarious.

It's not possible to "slam yourself into the side of a van" when your arms and legs are paralyzed and you're handcuffed. The video of Gray being dragged into the paddy wagon clearly shows that his total body was limp, and that he had no voluntary control of his arms or his legs. If that's the case, it'd be damed hard for him to "slam himself around" in the back of the van. I think there's a more plausible explanation.

There's an interesting backstory to why people are using the explanation that, "he must have become injured while he was in the back of the paddy wagon." I'm sure that because of your familiarity with the antics of the Bal'mo PD, you know that this isn't the first time that someone who was in the back of the paddy wagon arrived at their "final destination" dead with a broken neck. More on that later.

I'm with the rest of you who think that that kind of rioting behavior needs to be prosecuted. But unlike limiting the scope of prosecution to those who are pillaging, plundering and burning, I think that there needs to be prosecution on both sides. The problem that I'm seeing is that the enforcement and prosecution tend to be one-sided. There isn't much accountability for the abhorrent behavior by "professionals" who know better than to do what they've been caught doing. Clearly, if they make the decision to engage in criminal behavior then the law should be applied to them equally and without bias.

Of course the politicians want to whitewash everything, because they realize that their municipalities are going to be held financially responsible for the actions of their employees, which should result in a huge financial judgement when the civil rights violation cases finally go to federal court. Those kinds of cases should cost them millions, and the CEO of the municipality (aka Mayor) doesn't want his municipal corporation to lose millions out of it's operating budget because of institutionalized officer misbehavior. To that end, it's interesting that the Baltimore administration held a news conference where they essentially hung the 6 officers out to dry -- they announced that Baltimore already had an official policy that all handcuffed prisoners must be secured safely in a seatbelt during transport -- specifically to avoid these kinds of injuries -- and that those procedures were not followed.

Obviously, they're trying to lay the groundwork for using the officers' "failure to follow established protocols" to divert financial and criminal responsibility from the police department/municipality to the officers themselves. Essentially, that's an effort to shift criminal and financial liability away from the municipality (which is responsible for employee behavior in performing their duties of employment) to the individual officers, based upon the argument that the officers were acting outside of the scope of their employment.

Have we heard this story before? Of course.

Freddie Gray isn't the first guy to suffer a broken neck while he had a "Nickel Ride" in the back of a Baltimore paddy wagon. The list of people who have been thrown into Baltimore paddy wagons, only to arrive at their final destination with a broken neck, is appallingly long. Here are just a few examples:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/200...brutality-cell

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/200...ltimore-police

http://www.marylandaccidentlawblog.c..._wrongful.html

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...423-story.html


"Nickel Rides" also happen in Philly:

http://articles.philly.com/2014-09-2...f-duty-officer

and in California:

http://patch.com/california/dixon/va...-pol8d73e2f238

... the list goes on and on...

The basic problem is that when people are taken into custody, the Police become legally and morally obliged to ensure the welfare of the person who they handcuff, because they have taken away that person's ability to care for himself by restraining him. The problem with dead men piling up in the back of Bal'mo paddy wagons has gotten expensive for the city. They've had several multi-million dollar judgments against them in court, all of which get reduced by Maryland law to the statutory limit of $200,000 for lawsuits against a municipality. With a $200,000 cap on liability, I guess there's not much financial motivation to solve the problem. It's easier to just hike everyone's property taxes and let the status quo remain the status quo.

Let's be honest -- there's no reason for anyone to suffer a broken neck while they're being transported by the police. The police have an ethical obligation to protect you from bodily harm while they have you in their custody and control. The only way for you to suffer a broken neck while in custody is: A) for them to break your neck on purpose, and try to explain it with some bullshit excuse, or B) for some preventable tragedy to befall you because they were negligent in not taking measures to ensure your safety. Regardless of whether it's (A) or (B), the bottom line is it's no accident and they are responsible, civilly if not criminally.

I used to think that things like this only happened in 1970s South Africa during the era of apartheid. Unfortunately, now we see videos of people across the USA being placed on the ground, with the police kneeling on them, with a knee firmly planted between the shoulder blades on the detainee's spine. Anyone with military experience knows that's a hold used in hand to hand combat, for the express purpose of rapidly breaking the enemy's neck. I find it distressing that the police are allowed to use such deadly holds on civilians. Those are battlefield tactics that are extremely dangerous to employ if you don't intend to go all the way and kill someone. It's no surprise that bad things like broken necks result when the police are allowed to use such inherently dangerous holds.

Looking at that Baltimore video, it's clear that the guy's neck was broken before he got tossed into the van, because he had no power to control his arms or his legs. When he asked for medical assistance, they denied it to him on several occasions. In the end, they finally called the paramedics, but only after he had been responsive for almost an hour. He he went into a coma caused by spinal shock, and never recovered. The surgeons who operated on him stated that his cervical spine was shattered in three places, and that his spinal cord was cut 80% of the way through. Three separate fractures? An accident? a neurosurgery professor at Baltimore's Johns Hopkins opined that the broken neck was no accident, saying that, "You have to apply a significant amount of force in order to break somebody's neck."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/b...420-story.html

This makes me wonder whether there might be some unintended consequences related to the vast amounts of federal spending that have been used to militarise our nation's local police forces. To me it seems that some of the combat training has gone a little over the top.

Here's an interesting, unbiased commentary that I found on YouTube. Although I don't claim to share the political views of this channel (I've never heard of them before), I do think they offer a fair assessment of the problem. It's the one video on YouTube that I think is worth watching:

 

Something is telling me not to even get in this conversation or make a YouTube video expressing how I really feel but I'm going to participate in this discussion. (No YouTube though..lol)
I must first state that I am not racist in any way shape or form and have many friends from many backgrounds.
That being said: I'm sooooo sick and tired of this BS! These people act like this because they are animals. They obviously were NOT brought up correctly and they don't get disciplined for anything they do. Again, not racist, but I gotta say, you just don't see anyone doing this crap but the blacks. Not all of them. Some black people are great upstanding citizens. There's a difference between a black person and a N*****. Those "N" people can be any color.
They are a bunch of animals! Bottom line. And apparently, they're too stupid to see that they're hurting themselves. The $ to replace these police cars, to clean up the aftermath, the overtime for the police, to process the ones who are actually arrested and housed in jail...it all comes from taxes from the residents. Their mothers fathers sisters brothers etc that actually do work are paying for this. Guess what? The stores they burn and loot puts these people out of work which means no income this forcing them to sponge off the govt. Again, tax payer money. Yes, there are a ton of bad cops out there too! Trust me, I know that for fact. But the biggest problem is these thugs.
This Freddie Gray guy obviously was injured before they even put him in custody. Dragging his feet and screaming, he already had an injury. Supposedly, he had a car accident prior to this and was supposed to be home recovering from a surgery to his spine. Why was he out being a thug instead of home recovering? He obviously gave some reason for this to get started. Don't blame the police for this. These animals are just looking for a reason to let their true colors show and they jump at the chance to blame anyone but their own selves for their behavior.
The Michael Brown case: same thing. Some big *** thug is confronted for a crime he committed and assaults the officer who is 1/2 his size. Again, bunch of freakin animals.
The cops were wrong for shooting that guy in the back in the park and should be tried for homicide. Deadly force is ONLY to be used when fear of life in danger. I also think the cop that ran that other guy over should be tried for attempted homicide. He clearly was trying to kill him. There are procedures for dealing with these things. That's NOT one of them and I'm glad people are taking videos exposing the piece of s*** cops that are out there. Let's get rid of them. There have been many injustices done to ALL races. But enough is enough and I'm sick and tired of these clowns using the race card to get everything. The free ride is over. Grow up, get some education, get a job and be a productive member of society. This country is away to lax and needs to reinstate torture chambers and start using the death penalty more often. These people don't deserve to live here. Let them go join ISIS if they want to be animals that way we can legally dispose of them. I'm just so sick of it! I am a disabled veteran and didn't put my life on the line for these pieces of garbage to destroy MY home or threaten MY family or yours! Guess what? These idiots throwing bricks and rocks at the police injuring them could possibly kill them. As far as I'm concerned, the police should shoot at them. That's a threat to their (police) lives. The streets would empty real quick! These "kids" are old enough to know better. I see close up video of them jumping all over the police cars like monkeys with their stupid *** gang signs....you see who they are, find them and charge them with everything possible. I was so happy to see that single black mother having some pride and slapping the **** out of her kid in front of everyone. That's a good mother right there. Kudos to her!!!
Something needs to change!! Now!! I empathize with the other races for what they've been through in the past and even up to now. But being a criminal is NOT the way to fix that. That adds fuel to the fire. You want things to change then grow up and do things the right way. While I'm on my rant, I don't want to even see Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson (which you haven't really) because they are some of the most racist idiots out there. I guess I'm done for now, my wife keeps interrupting me trying to talk so I'm losing my train of thought.

 

I am afraid I have not been following the painful details of this story closely (is that a virtue or a sin...?), and I was not aware that the story had him being limp before being placed in the van, where he "injured himself."

Obviously, that's a crock full.

I have personally seen people do stupid things while "under," as we say in NY, so had he been capable of moving, I would not have discounted self-injury, but if things were as you describe them, I retract my statement.

Incidentally, a person with a non-transecting spinal cord injury ("spinal cord injury without radiologic abnormality" or "SCIWaRA") may have a chance at recovery if treated aggressively and early enough, so the delay in treatment for this guy was tantamount to murder.

- Eric

 

I hadn't been following it that closely until a couple of days ago. I found a lot of interesting case summaries on YouTube. I'm not a big YouTube fan, but it really does help as a means of catching up on major news events if you get a late start in paying attention to them. You can review lots of reports from both liberal and conservative sources all at once, rather than waiting for the news to play out bit by bit in real time. Unfortunately, some of the Youtube videos on this subject have been censored for one reason or another.

There's a lot of disinformation being spread about on-line and in the TV news to try to con the gullible people who aren't paying close attention. The Baltimore Sun recently published an article de-bunking the bullshit story that Gray had a back injury from a previous accident:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...429-story.html

Evidently, being an animal isn't the only excuse for educational and behavioral problems. We've all known about the toxicity of lead paint, which is why it has been banned for decades. Today only the lowest socioeconomic classes continue to be exposed to it.

Logic refutes the allegation that his spine injury came from a pre-existing injury. He was clearly able to move all 4 limbs of his body before the police caught him, but he was unable to do so afterwards.

Interestingly, the BBC has just reported (an hour ago) that private video footage has documented that "the van" made a "previously undisclosed stop" while Gray was in custody. No details yet about where it happened, it's just a stop that nobody has previously admitted to having occurred.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32541245

I'm trying to keep an open mind about what's going on. I understand that some people just don't want to know the truth, and they'll resort to all sorts of defensive rationalizations because they want to go on believing that there isn't a problem.

 

I have to agree with you, go to you tube and you can see all kinds of police abuse on people that are not black, the cops are getting out of control.
But this destroying your city, oh boy that shows them. Look at Detroit it really has never recoverd from the riots.

 

Bob P, each night after work I've turned on the Fox news channel and they've been running non-stop on this story. If you have that channel you might check it out.

Yeah, America isn't perfect but I'm glad to be living in this great country. There is a process though when things go wrong, and it doesn't include rioting, looting, burning cars and businesses. The general behavior we're seeing. Cops are human just like us, so a percentage which is hopefully small will behave badly. But when the media creates new terms like "white Hispanic" they're just throwing gas on the fire. When they state things simply like "A white guy shot and killed an unarmed black teen" I feel they're intentionally trying to work up the crowds. When our political leaders also fan the flames they aren't helping. We need healing not stirring the pot. John

 

The 6 suspended police officers were indicted this morning. This is breaking news and there isn't much information available from many sources yet. I think the NY Times has the best story that's out so far.

Prosecutors Charge 6 Baltimore Officers in Freddie Gray Death

What surprises me about this is that the city has been sitting on the autopsy report all week instead of dealing with it right away. On the day that Gray was buried the city announced that they would not be releasing the autopsy report until Friday, people sensed a cover-up, and the riots followed.

At the time I had thought that it was a mistake to delay releasing the report, because people would assume that there was some sort of whitewashing going on, and they'd react badly. Obviously, someone thought that the situation would burn itself out if they delayed releasing the report for a few days. I think that tactic backfired on them. They should have just released the bad news right away, and announced the indictments right away. If they had done that, then the riots might have been avoided. Unfortunately the wheels of justice take time to turn, and it looks like some impatient people with poor coping skills weren't willing to wait.

Here's who got charged:

Officer Caesar R. Goodson Jr. was charged with second-degree murder, manslaughter, assault and misconduct in office.

Lt. Brian W. Rice was charged with manslaughter, assault, misconduct in office and false imprisonment.

Officer William G. Porter and Sgt. Alicia D. White were each charged with manslaughter, assault and misconduct in office.

Officers Edward M. Nero and Garrett E. Miller were charged with assault, misconduct in office and false imprisonment.


I hope that this will be enough to put an end to the backlash surrounding the Gray event. The wheels of justice are turning and it's time for the healing process to begin.

 

Well, I saw two things on the news tonight that surprised me.

First, I thought much of the protest was based on race relations. But of the six police officers who were charged three are white and three are black.

Then its being reported by the Police union that the prosecutor has a personal connection to the attorney for the deceased mans family. Also that her husband is a city councilman. I don't see her husbands position as being that big of a deal, but what they're saying about her history with the attorney that looks like a glaring conflict of interest to me. I've always been told that its important to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest. They may be setting themselves up for problems if they go forward using this prosecutor.

John

 

Where I live, there is all sorts of intermarriage between judges, prosecutors and defense attorneys. It's a stinking kettle of fish.

 

John, I know you've got a healthy amount of skepticism about the government, and, though race is a factor, I don't see this as being about race at all in the final analysis.
I see this as the cops in a certain place being able to get away with bad behavior, so they do. It happens, in general, that it's easier to get away with bad behavior against poor black people than rich white people (and 100 years ago it was easy against poor Italian people, and fifty years before that against poor Irish people, and fifty years before that against poor German people...), so these things tend to come to a head in poor black neighborhoods, but as I see it, the way things are going these days, we are all heading in the same direction if we don't put a stop to it by shutting down these guys in this city.

You know very well how most cops these days have adopted General Mattis's advice to "Be professional, be polite, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet." You remember the old days when a cop would pull you over and ask "Where's the fire?" or say "What the hell did you think you were doing back there?" You had a chance to talk to him and see if he knew any of your friends or relatives.

Now it's just "License and registration, please, sir," and if you move your hands, you're likely to get shot. You used to be able to get out of the car to talk to the guy, and maybe he'd rest his hand on his nightstick, but now the stick's been replaced by a Taser, and if you get out of the car, he'll go for his gun.

As far as I'm concerned, this is all part of that.



Yeah, I don't see anything nefarious here.

Where do you meet your spouse? College? Law School? Summer job? Work?
Well, if you're a lawyer, this means that you're darned likely to marry another lawyer (which is to say defense lawyer, prosecutor, judge, or ambulance chaser). In a small city, the legal community is likely a festering hive of interrelationships, which is, in fact, the thing that moves most judicial work forward ("Your honor [with whom I was playing golf yesterday], I need a search warrant for this address. The Chief District Attorney [who is married to your sister] feels strongly that this is important...").

- Eric

 

Hi Eric
I know we live in different parts of the country and I've lived in smaller towns, nothing near the size of Baltimore. I've not had the same experience with law enforcement that you shared. I do see this as a continuation of the protests from other fatal shootings. The guy who was shot for taking the officers taser was way over the top. Clearly that officer shouldn't have shot him in the back as he ran away. But there have been other incidents that when the facts came out the police were in the right. Even though there were protests and a belief, some due to lies told, that the cops executed young black men. My msn homepage has a story quoting people chanting "no justice no peace, no racist police" so some consider race to be a factor in this incident.

We're not going to solve the problems of our society here. Although I suspect we've got a good cross section of our country as members on this site. I'm listening to the TV new in the background. A police officer in Queens was shot in the head today. Another human being killed. Yeah, if I could wave a magic wand and make everyone value human life and respect others rights I would. Until then, we can try to influence the circle of people around us. Those who believe in prayer can pray for peace. John

 

One of the problems we have here on this board is that we are too gentlemanly to call things as they blatantly are.
I was in a bad part of the south side of Chicago tonight in my Eldo convert. It's not a terribly bad area but bad enough. I was told by another driver to, "Get your *** home, white boy!" I actually felt threatened. Of course driving a 75 Eldo convert might have given rise to some envy in that part of town. But there I go being racist.

 

Funny, because I'm a city boy, and I've never felt particularly nervous around NYC cops, who, for the most part, would rather go home than waste their time pulling someone over for a traffic infraction, and who have REAL dirtbags to shoot if they really want to shoot someone. It's always the rural cops, who are usually about 14 years old, pumped up on steroids, and wearing high and tight haircuts, who scare the crap out of me.
You may be fortunate in your area of the beautiful northwest, though.



I think that's one of our virtues.

We all have racist tendencies - I'm pretty sure it's hard-wired to at least be suspicious of people who look different - but the fact is that most people of whatever race / religion / background / culture /job are just fine, and just trying to get through each day just like the rest of us, even though there may be differences between our day-to-day experiences.

Sure, some black guy in a bad area of the city didn't like you. I'm sure a lot of his friends didn't either. But when a person (and I'm not saying that you did) uses this to decide that "all of them" are _________, then that's wrong.
There have been situations when I was in black or hispanic neighborhoods and have been justified in feeling very nervous, (hell, I didn't have a real good time being a white kid in a black neighborhood when I was a kid...), and others when the local folks have been extremely nice and helpful.

My point is that while there are clearly some people in any group (including white people, black people, cops, whoever) who are total jerks, there are plenty of others who aren't, so it is wrong, and inaccurate, to generalize.

- Eric

 

on a somewhat smaller scale
Went out with the youngest for ice cream last night and to see if any hot rods were out. There were not. So we stop for ice cream, and soon two yutes come walking by on the sidewalk oh 50 ft away. Evidently they were just at Burger Thing. I am watching them with their drinks, and as if on cue, one of them finishes and without a thought [of course] drops the cup and straw to the ground and they walk on.

I'm astonished but then not really. There are more folks than just me and the kid in my area so I holler real loud "SIR, it would be NICE if you could REFRAIN from LITTERING!" They keep walking. "OR YOU COULD GO BACK AND PICK THAT UP." They keep walking... "OR NOT, JUST BE A PIG!" and by now they are past the Taco Hell and they keep going.

Amazing they didn't sneak up behind us and attack or something.

I went and picked up the idiot's litter and put it in the trash container next to where I was sitting. Driving home, we see, 100 ft later down the sidwalk, what is no doubt Yute #2's drink cup.

Act like animals... trash your own city... where do stereotypes come from?

I would love to see cops not so busy pestering people going 52 in a 45 zone that they can issue citations to litterbugs who are ACTUALLY making life worse for the entire city. Maybe we get lucky and they run from the cops...

 

Hey, I'm with you. I've encountered a lot of jerks like that with exceptionally bad attitudes.

I'm just making the point that while their particular type of misbehavior (insolent, sullen, passive-aggressive with an implied threat of potential violence) seems to go with their background, there's plenty of black people, poor people, and people in their neighborhood who aren't like that (and who probably don't like them much, either), as well as plenty of white people, rich or poor, who have a slightly different pattern of obnoxiousness, but who are just as obnoxious.

I do agree with you that there are a lot of jerks like that, and that they all seem interchangeable from your or my perspective (in NY, the word that seems to suit them best is "mopes"), but I feel the need to point out the (obvious?) fact that while they may be the face of a certain kind of jerk, they are not the face of "black people" or of "poor black people."

- Eric

 

Right. Idiots come in a variety of flavors.

Of the several times I have seen someone littering here, without a car [excepting cigarette smokers tossing butts out] in very case it was a black yute. Open the door and set that bag of BK trash in the road. Drop the drink container wherever you are. Toss the stuff out the window.

Time to enforce littering laws better.

 

Another useless thread in need of a moderator to delete it, but that will never happen since this site is all about advertisers and page views. A lot of you idiots would rather talk about this kind of irrelevant crap than Oldsmobiles, so I guess I can't blame the mods for "giving the public what it wants".

Hey Rocketraider, why not start a thread like this on the AACA forum you moderate, or at least used to? Oh right, cuz you know only 3 people would see it.

 

Actually, I think the penalties should be much more severe, and we should nail anyone caught littering to the wall.

But I really hate that kind of crap.



Wow. In this incendiary thread, the first time someone has called someone else a name.

- Eric

 

I don't know. Stereotypes are based in fact. Statistics are based in fact. To ignore them because it's not nice to generalize is to put yourself at risk. One shouldn't go about saying bigoted things, but, keeping extra aware around certain classes, age brackets, and races/religions is not a bad thing. I would rather be thought a rude person and live to a ripe old age than be a nice, trusting person who got killed young.

I get discriminated against because of my height and gender. I look scary to some people. Does it bother me? A little, maybe, but I realize that they don't know me and they are looking out for themselves, which is what I do as well.

 

I think it's both about race and about being able to get away with it. And it's also about the fraternal "it's us versus them" nature of the job. Everyone on the job understands that they're all playing on the same team, and that they need to adopt that attitude and live it in order to assure that they'll get backup when they need it. Sometimes the fraternal nature of the job requires the turning of a blind eye to indiscretions. Those officers who can live with the situation will stay on the force, those who can't will leave to find other jobs. As a result the job actively selects people who are willing to be team players. As we've seen, when one person is a particularly bad actor, he tends to abuse the fraternal relationship of those around him ... then really bad things happen.

 

Racist!

 

I know I said I would refrain. But Baltimore is returning. One shooting murder and another shooting last night after curfew.