OLD SKL 69

I grew up driving and liking American cars for many reasons: styling, quality, sound, ease of working on, etc. The foreign cars lacked styling, were made like tin cans, expensive to repair, etc. The last part I knew about first hand when I co-owned an auto garage.

There was a period of time when American cars were substandard and allowed the foreign cars to really gain in their market share. But in the last several years, they have certainly caught up and even surpassed the japanese in certain areas. However, many people are not giving the American cars a chance. I've had people say to me that american cars suck and I would never buy one. Unfortunately those people who say that have very little 1st hand experience, it's all here say or something the experienced when they owned an American car 10 yrs ago. If American cars really sucked, I certainly would not buy one. Between my wife and I, we have had 5 different American cars over the past 10 years and guess what, not one gave us a problem!

The thing I also find frustrating is how the domestic parts content has really taken a beating in several models. The big three are forced to cut costs by buying cheaper parts and that means China or Mexico. And their is a misperception that most foreign cars are made here with a high domestic parts content. As TK-65 stated, this is not true. But if you want to buy American, and actually help our economy, you really have to pay attention to the window sticker.

Ok, now I will get off my soap box!

delmontcrusier

ok I don't own any mopar or fiat stuff and the cts if it was the front wheel drive was a joke in my opinion to begin with.I own gm but from the 60's 80's and 90's and one ford a 92 explorer I have only done general and regular maintenance.Due to living in ny I consider some body work general maintenance.I hate rust but it is common here it would be nice to live in a southern state.I don't have the funds to buy a new or newer vehicle so I just look at vehicles and i find stuff i do and don't like as well as talking to people that includes some people I know at dealerships and auto repair places.I was never into foreign cars.Sadly I know the american vehicles are parlty made forign but i like the american styling better and several of my vehicals were made in canada so works for me.I don't like chineese japanese type cars many are to small for me.I am disgusted by these priuses and these suposedly smart cars.The fact on those is they are costly to the enviornment and use metals and eliments etc that are not in abundant supply.I prefer rear wheel drive and there are few that are on the market in the car form so one interest is suvs and trucks.I can understand many people mad about this and that and disgruntled relating to forign cars, me it is mainly I just don't like them I like the american muscle.I like the purr of a loud strong engine I even like diesels.I do not how ever like these toys on wheels.

Nilsson

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/auto...rs-score-well/

aliensatemybuick

The CTS is/was real wheel drive, as was the Magnum. I really think that unless someone has owned a recently made American car, they aren't qualified to weigh in on this discussion. I mean no disrespect by that comment, and if someone who does own one chimes in to say they couldn't be happier with their American made vehicle, or that their Japanese/German/Swedish/Korean/Whatever car sucks, I would not take them to task, as it would be only their opinion, but at least an informed one.

jaunty75

I agree with you and OLD SKL 69 on the issue of current American products being the equal of anything the Japanese have, but it's past perception that matters, and it will take the domestic manufacturers a long time to climb out of the hole they dug 20 and 30 years ago, if they ever do.

I did own a late-model U.S. car until last February. We bought a new 2005 Ford Freestyle crossover back in June of that year and kept it until we traded it last February. The car was perfectly fine, and we were very happy with it. We finally traded it last February for something smaller.

But the thing about that car was that, according to Ford, it contained "80% U.S. or Canadian content," which I though was kind of a weird way of putting it. First off, that means that 20% of the car's parts are made somewhere other than the U.S. or Canada. But it also could mean that as little as ZERO percent of its content could be U.S. if that "80% U.S. or Canadian" is taken as possibly meaning 80% Canadian. But if you just take the average, the car's part content was 40% U.S., 40% Canada, and 20% somewhere else. Which means that a car as "American" as you might expect this car to be was likely only 40% U.S. content.

As I've stated before, the '09 Nissan Altima we bought when we traded in the Freestyle has about 60% U.S. part content, so it has more U.S. part content than the "American" car we traded in, and it, like the Ford, was assembled in the U.S. As I've also stated before, the Mustang, which you would think is as American as anything can be, is even less U.S. part content than the Freestyle, and it's assembled in Mexico.

Nilsson

To me a modern day car no matter the manufacturer is nothing more then a appliance. It has one purpose and that is transportation. I do prefer Honda and my last 2 cars have been Accords. See my signature it says it all how I feel about my daily driver. I buy cars just off lease pay a fair price drive for an average 7-8 years 150,000 miles. The one prior to the one I have now paid 13,500.00 (with 36000 miles) for it and sold it for 4800.00 with 156,000 miles car was in excellent condition. So in the long run I had $8700.00 in the car drove it for a little over 7 years and 120,000 miles never had one problem with it.

Now that is value?

wolfman98

On May 30 , 2009 on the final reunion of the bataan death march japanese ambassador Ichiro Fujisaki apologized to the assembly for the treatment of the prisoners during the march on behalf of the Japanese government and japanese people.

Thanks for the update Wolfman98. It was only about 60 years too late. No more than a handful of the survivors are still alive.[/quote]

The japanese government has been notoriously slow in apologizing to anyone for atrosities from about 1936-1945. They still have not formerly apologized to the Chinese for what they did before the war and to the phillipino for what they did there. it is believed that 2 million chinese and 4 million phillipino's died from forced labor at the hands of the japanese. Other than the bataan death march they did the same thing to many hundreds of British ,Canadian and Indian troops captured in east asia. The prison camps were where many of them died from forced labor and starvation. Remember the movie Bridge over the river Kwai? True story but it was so much more than just that one bridge. germany had a lot more documentation of war crimes because they basically were completely surrounded when they eventually surrenderd but japan had not been invaded and when they surrendered they had time to destroy a lot of documents. only a few were found years later that an officer had saved and hidden to write a history of the war in the future.
It is true that you can find things in history that almost every country and culture should be embarrased about , cruelty to fellow humans has no boundaries.

TK-65

Second time youve got your facts wrong in this thread. The Freestyle was made in Chicago. And the Mustang is made in Flat Rock MI.

jaunty75

I didn't say the Freestyle wasn't assembled in the U.S. Only that it is has 60% non-U.S. parts.

My bad on the Mustang. You are right about where it is assembled, but the Toyota Camry, the Honda Civic, the Toyota Sienna, and the Nissan Altima all have more U.S. part content than the Mustang.



Here's a good read on the the current problems of the U.S. auto industry:

The UAW’s true colors exposed again for all to see.

TK-65

Wrong again, you ASSUME that it has 60% non US parts. The vehicle was assembled in Chicago, the engine came from Ohio and if it has a CVT that came from Ohio also. Dont say its 40% domestic when you have no idea is if actually is.

jaunty75

Hey, save your vitriol for someone else.

I'm not wrong at all.

I'm going by what Ford ITSELF says about Freestyle content. No, I don't KNOW for 100% sure that the Freestyle is only 40% U.S. content. But it's quite REASONABLE to split the difference on what Ford ITSELF says, and that is that the Freestyle is 80% U.S. OR Canadian content. It said this RIGHT ON THE WINDOW STICKER.

Who cares where any specific part is made? Ford ITSELF says that the car is 80% U.S. or Canadian. If we split that difference, we get 40% U.S. and 40% Canadian. Add in the 20% non-U.S. or Canadian, and we have an American car, assembled in the U.S. (I've never claimed otherwise on this), with greater than 50% non-U.S. content. A very REASONABLE thing to conclude based on Ford's OWN WORDS.

I found it very interesting that Ford would not be more specific than the "80% U.S. or Canadian" comment. You would think that, if they were trying to brag about a U.S.-built car containing mostly U.S.-made parts, they would tout that more strongly and give a specific U.S.-made part percentage. The fact that they DIDN'T with this car, and instead tried to hide behind this vague "U.S. or Canadian" comment, speaks VOLUMES. The reality is that it is probably less than the 40% I'm giving them credit for, but by couching the content in the vague "U.S. or Canadian" wording, they're making it sound like it has more U.S. content that it really does.

TK-65

Every car manufacturer is required by law to state the origin of the car, the engine and the trans. And give a domestic content percentage. Go look at a Toyotas windowsticker and you will see the same thing Ford did.

Again, you DONT KNOW. You are assuming something based on a number. I told you where the three major parts are assembled, by the way the sheetmetal was stamped in Chicago also, but you still think its less than 40%. Which means you are wrong.

jaunty75

Big deal.

And NEITHER DO YOU.

Yes, I am, on FORD'S NUMBER.

Fine. WHO CARES? Why don't you tell me what the phase of the moon will be tonight, too?

Where any particular part is made is NOT RELEVANT.





Why is any of this such a big deal for you, anyway? I'm just speculating here. Just making conversation. And you're getting all hot and bothered as though I insulted your mother.

TK-65

Most threads about where domestic cars are made usually have wrong info. People read this info and take it as fact, when the original poster usually doesnt have a clue what he is talking about. So when I read that the Mustang was made in Mexico and the Freestyle could have 0% American content, I had to chime in.

"Neither do you", nice retort. I never said I know where every single part comes from, but I do know where the majority of the car was made. I gave facts to support this.

I see the snappy comebacks are starting so Ill just end this now.

Jamesbo

Let's hold it down please.

This spirited discussion is getting a might out of hand. Why don't ya'll go outside and hug your Oldsmobiles and come back in and shake hands.

OK?

jaunty75

You stated where some parts are made. Fine. That doesn't add up to a percentage or a majority or anything.

jaunty75

Take it up with him. I've just making some comments. Speculating here. Offering an opinion there. Some of them are half-baked, some of them are not. Not attacking anybody. In short, having a conversation.

And he comes in and jumps on MY back. Tell him to cool off. No one is insulting his heritage here.

TK-65

I said I know where the majority of the parts were made.

Read this, add in the American engine and trans, and see what you get.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...4/ai_n6261228/

Jamesbo

My polite request was not pointed at you alone. "Ya'll " down here means both of you.

IMHO arguing over the net just isn't in the spirit and standards we are striving to maintain at Classic Olds. If you want to have a keyboard free for all, We all know there are other Olds forums where it's sometimes the norm.

I'm just asking you to let it go.

P-L-E-A-S-E

Both of you [a.k.a. Ya'll] have the knowledge and ability to help someone with their project. Just take a breather and look for someone who needs your help. I promise ya'll it will be more beneficial than continuing this course.

Thanks

Jamesbo

jaunty75

This article does not shed much light on this subject. It says that these nearby factories supply 60% of "the value" of the car. What does that mean in the context of the "part content," which is what I've been talking about? It's comparing apples and oranges.

They're also including in this 60% the value of effort and labor, not just parts. They're claiming that the value of the sheet metal stamping operation is counted in this 60%. Fine, but that's not the value of the sheet metal itself, that's including the value of the processing of the sheet metal as well. Part content and value content are two different things here, and if one starts including "value" content provided by this supplier and that factory, you can get pretty much any "content" level you want.

It's never actually clear what "part content" means. Does it mean content by value, as this article says? Content by weight? Content by number of parts, where the contribution of something as large as the engine block and something as small as the cigarette lighter would count the same? I've always taken it to mean the second or the third. I've never taken it to mean content by value, and I doubt that most people would assume that that was what "part content" meant unless it was specifically mentioned, as it is in this article.

For example, the engine block might be the heaviest AND most valuable single thing in the car, but as a fraction of the total number of individual parts, it's quite small.

TK-65

Hey, you win. That last post shows I cant show you anything to prove my point. So good day.

jaunty75

No, what you showed doesn't prove anything. THAT's the point. It shows that the part content of the Freestyle does exceed 50%, but not in the context that most people would use when talking about part content, and not in the context that Ford means when it lists percent part content on its window stickers.

Show us something that DOES discuss part content in the Freestyle in a context other than "value," and we would be interested.

cutlassgal

As confusing as oil!! Thanks, Jamesbo!!!

Nilsson

Must consider over the years that Ford, Mazda, Volvo (Mazda part ownership by Ford) and owned Volvo outright how many parts they share. I would hazard a guess that Ford has allot of made in American parts by foreign companies on American soil.

You can certainly see the design influences in the later model Ford sedans to Mazda and Volvo excluding the Mustang and pick up trucks.

wolfman98

Over the past 20 years a lot of companies merged or shared parts then were sold off again , it gets confusing to figure out who ownes who these days. i know that my mom's 2003 Lincoln LS has a 3.9 litre jaguar V8 5 speed auto and it is a rocket. It is also one of the smallest Lincoln's I have ever seen. I am sure that car has parts from all over the place

jaunty75

That's because the conversation veered off course, flew off the cliff, and crashed into the abyss of largely-beside-the-point arguments.

The main point in all this, and it hasn't changed, is that you simply cannot make broad generalizations about what is and what isn't an "American" car. Many American brands have significant non-American part content and/or are assembled in other countries. I was wrong about the Mustang, but I do know that the Ford Fusion is assembled in Mexico. Chrysler (itself a question mark as to how American it is now is given that it is being run by the head of Fiat and is also known as FiatChrysler) and Dodge minivans are assembled in Canada.

On the other side of that coin, some Japanese models have significant U.S.-made parts and are assembled in the U.S.

I'd like to ask those people who say they'd "never buy a foreign car" if, in their opinion, anyone who bought a Chrysler Corporation car made between 1998 and 2007, the years it was owned by Mercedes-Benz, bought a foreign car. I have a 2002 Dodge Dakota pickup truck. It was assembled in the U.S. with largely U.S.-made parts. But it was made by a German-owned company. Did I buy a "foreign" truck?

wolfman98

Yep you got it right, kind of like trying to buy a TV that is still made in America.

TK-65

Do you consider Budweiser an American beer?

citcapp

I'll drink any beer, I don't care where it's made, Jamesbo's bear agrees with me. And you can't argue with the "Bear"

delmontcrusier

yeah and the beer can could have been made by a aluminum part of a carlol

jaunty75

A great question.

About 1000 messages ago in this thread, someone argued that it doesn't matter where a car is made or who made it or where the parts are made, if the profits ultimately flow back to a foreign company, then it's a foreign car. By that definition, which I think is as reasonable as any, my '09 Nissan Altima AND my '02 Dodge Dakota are both foreign vehicles. Both were assembled in the U.S. by U.S. citizens with mostly American-made parts, but in both cases the profits flowed back to a foreign-owned company.

By the same definition, Budweiser beer is not an American beer any more. It may be brewed in America by American brewery workers, but if the profits go back to Belgium or wherever the company is headquartered, and if we're going to be consistent, then it's not an American beer.

If it IS an American beer, then my '09 Nissan is an American car!

What do you say?

jaunty75

The funny thing about this example is that you CAN now buy an American-made TV. Vizio, which is a common flat-panel TV brand you see at Best Buy, Walmart, etc., is made in southern California. I don't know where all the parts come from, but it is assembled in the U.S. by a U.S.-owned company. It is unusual because, prior to its founding, as you say, all American TV manufacturing capacity had long been shutdown, and all of our TVs had come from overseas. But someone thought it was worth starting a TV company in the U.S. Good for them!

Nilsson

Exactly!

cutlassgal

I've heard rumors bout that bear!! I wouldn't want to argue with him! Last I heard, he was stuck in the blizzard they're havin out in Colorado - that modified motorized recliner doesn't have snow tires on it!! I imagine he's not in a good mood now!!!

Red Delta

Absolutely, the profits of the American auto makers go to....um...er...hang on....

Fact is, who cares where the profits go? The bottom line is that the foreign auto makers are creating jobs in the US and Canada. That goes a long way.

I was employed by a company that made parts for Honda which is built in Alliston, Ontario. If it wasn't for that employment, I wouldn't have been able to get my Olds on the road. Factory work didn't appeal to me, so I moved on, but because of that, I always consider Honda/Acura when I'm looking at vehicles.

I'm currently leasing a Mexican assembled Dodge Journey. It's basically junk, so when our lease is up in May, I plan on looking at the Windsor built (ick) Caravan or the Taurus. The Taurus looks dammed good if you ask me.

As a side note, my '95 Chrysler Concorde is going strong with 200,000 miles. Cash for clunkers can't have it, I love it too much.

Regardless, I don't think there is any point in holding a grudge against a country who had the first two atom bombs dropped on it, especially, that most of the people who were alive at that time are dead. Move on and get over it.

jaunty75

Why does being built in Windsor make it icky?

If you want a Chrysler minivan (Caravan or Town and Country), you have no choice but to buy a Canadian-built one. They're all built there.

Red Delta

Sorry, I didn't clarify, I meant that the fact that it's a Caravan makes it icky.

jaunty75

Oh. What don't you like about them? I have no serious interest, but I just notice that, in my neighborhood, there are about four Chrysler or Dodge minivans within a stone's throw of my house, three gold, one white.

Is it icky because it's a Chrysler minivan or is it icky just by virtue of the fact that it IS a minivan? You realize that if you're considering a minivan at all, you're consigning yourself to a certain level of ickiness right out the door. They're certainly not cool, and they're not meant to be. Those four minivans I mentioned? All of them are driven about 95% of the time by the mother of the house, and they're always hauling kids somewhere. (I notice this because I walk my dog through the neighborhood twice a day.) They are the CLASSIC soccer mom vehicle.

I owned two minivans in my life, a '95 Pontiac Transport and an '02 Oldsmobile Silhouette. Both were fine vehicles that transported me, my wife, our three kids, and our dog wherever we needed to go. As icky as they were, they did serve their purpose.

But if you do buy one, don't buy a gold one. That's would be the height of ickiness.

Red Delta

First part = yes.

We got the Journey with third row seating to avoid the fact that we needed a minivan. After (almost) a year, we have come to the conclusion that we would enjoy the room of a full sized mini van.

Still, all three fit fine in the olds, and if they didn't dump salt all over the roads during the winter....


I hear brown minivans are cool...right?

aliensatemybuick

On the subject of where profits go, its kinda moot when you are talking about a multinational company. The profits go to the shareholders, which come from all over the world. Amazing the silly justifications people are coming up with to buy 'Mercan: "I want to give my money to a nice white robber baron!."

I DO buy 'Mercan when it comes to my classic Oldsmobiles and my beater cars. In the first case, the reason is obvious; in the second, its because used American cars are worthless and thus perfect for disposable transportation. I just won't buy new. Never, ever again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 10 times, shame on me.