Ongoing issue
March 1st, 2015, 08:11 PM
#1
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Ongoing issue
This has been an ongoing issue on here since I have been a member and really came to light tonight on a thread. The thread is 72 ram air hood wanted under parts wanted section. The issue is simply people not just treating others with respect. Have seen it several times and have voiced my opinion a few times now I'm just done.
When we all decided to join we came here for all about the same reasons to learn , to be part of a group and further our hobby. So with that being said sounds like that's a good middle ground right?
But unfortunately that's not enough to negate the negativity and just plain nastiness at times. Where is it most prevalent when new members join and ask their first question. True example can pull it up too, guy asked how much to sell a car and boom ... " you kidding me could you provide less info and ect." It was ridiculous and uncalled for. What could of happened is the person could have kindly helped out and advised, instead was ridiculed. Problem is nobody is doing anything I mean there are only how many moderators, well enough to moderate this.
But that leads us to our next problem the moderators have and do it as well. So the clones of course will follow suit. That's actually the worst part seeing these followers jump in because an all might ____ said something. SHUT UP and walk your own walk. They obviously cant think for themselves hell anyone is tough behind a key board. The moderators need to moderate this, if someone is being a jerk to a new person DO SOMETHING. I have seen one moderator redirect a miserable person that was John Mcneel others I don't what you do and that's not to say you don't have responsibility. Its not right or should be tolerated. Does it happen every day , of course not but enough where people have mentioned it. I have 7 people who have expressed their issues during parts transactions. All had common complaints and all stated they don't post anymore and some left. And all mentioned the same culprits, I know its hard to believe. Why am I not mentioning them simply I'm not here to aggravate the situation but to aid in resolving it.
It comes down to a simple word humility. Just treat others the way you want to be treated. If you went somewhere and made your query and got blasted would you feel like going there again regardless what they had to offer? Also you could be disrespecting an elderly person who doesn't know what to do or how to post correctly. If everyone exercised humility despite their knowledge or alleged their of this would be a better place. These guys are examples to model after: Brett, Scott-oldspackrat, John Mcneel, Fred . There are others just cant think of them now. These people are humble and walk w it.
Yes the majority here are good people, but they don't post a lot or not at all. Look how many post frequently in relation to number who are members here. Its not a large number. So in light of that the few bad apples stick out because they tend to post a lot.
Their not hard to find you have the egotistical, the over compensating, the obnoxious and ect. If you post moderately you know them and seen them in action.
So next time try to help and post w kindness instead of sarcasm. Use patience instead of aggravation. Respect all until not deserved anymore.
At the end of day were all the same . We all want to be treated well, fairly and grow our hobby's knowledge.
When we all decided to join we came here for all about the same reasons to learn , to be part of a group and further our hobby. So with that being said sounds like that's a good middle ground right?
But unfortunately that's not enough to negate the negativity and just plain nastiness at times. Where is it most prevalent when new members join and ask their first question. True example can pull it up too, guy asked how much to sell a car and boom ... " you kidding me could you provide less info and ect." It was ridiculous and uncalled for. What could of happened is the person could have kindly helped out and advised, instead was ridiculed. Problem is nobody is doing anything I mean there are only how many moderators, well enough to moderate this.
But that leads us to our next problem the moderators have and do it as well. So the clones of course will follow suit. That's actually the worst part seeing these followers jump in because an all might ____ said something. SHUT UP and walk your own walk. They obviously cant think for themselves hell anyone is tough behind a key board. The moderators need to moderate this, if someone is being a jerk to a new person DO SOMETHING. I have seen one moderator redirect a miserable person that was John Mcneel others I don't what you do and that's not to say you don't have responsibility. Its not right or should be tolerated. Does it happen every day , of course not but enough where people have mentioned it. I have 7 people who have expressed their issues during parts transactions. All had common complaints and all stated they don't post anymore and some left. And all mentioned the same culprits, I know its hard to believe. Why am I not mentioning them simply I'm not here to aggravate the situation but to aid in resolving it.
It comes down to a simple word humility. Just treat others the way you want to be treated. If you went somewhere and made your query and got blasted would you feel like going there again regardless what they had to offer? Also you could be disrespecting an elderly person who doesn't know what to do or how to post correctly. If everyone exercised humility despite their knowledge or alleged their of this would be a better place. These guys are examples to model after: Brett, Scott-oldspackrat, John Mcneel, Fred . There are others just cant think of them now. These people are humble and walk w it.
Yes the majority here are good people, but they don't post a lot or not at all. Look how many post frequently in relation to number who are members here. Its not a large number. So in light of that the few bad apples stick out because they tend to post a lot.
Their not hard to find you have the egotistical, the over compensating, the obnoxious and ect. If you post moderately you know them and seen them in action.
So next time try to help and post w kindness instead of sarcasm. Use patience instead of aggravation. Respect all until not deserved anymore.
At the end of day were all the same . We all want to be treated well, fairly and grow our hobby's knowledge.
March 1st, 2015, 09:10 PM
#2
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Alright. In fairness, I have to think about this, if only briefly.
First, for our listening audience across this great Land, the thread in question is here.
One poster was was nice to the OP (which he isn't when it comes to Kurt, whom you mentioned, or his organization), Dave and Z11 were slightly snarky.
I can see your point that the responses you call out could easily have been phrased in a more welcoming way, but I do not see the way that they were phrased as having been severely nasty. Snarky, yes, but I suspect the tone in the minds of the posters as they were typing was more jovial than mean-spirited - Would you have felt so negatively if they had included smiley faces after their posts?
I would never criticize a poster for being too nice (well, other than a certain person selling on eBay recently, who just doesn't want to admit that he's completely in the right), but I believe that a certain amount of snark (which is not the same as nastiness) is expected and reasonable on the interwebs - it is not intended cruelly, and is part of the "joking" or "ribbing" that has occurred between people for millennia.
Since your oblique description of the habitual perpetrators could be seen as fitting me, I will say that I probably do get sharper than I should on occasion, but I believe that most of the time my posts are well within the bounds of normal internet propriety, and further, that I also provide meaningful help to most posters to whom I respond. I think each of us has his own "pet peeves" (and if you want to see a thread get shut down, just start one called "Pet Peeves..."), and mine include HEI conversions without good reason (and, yes, there are good reasons), thoughtless "improvements" in general, and failure to look up the obvious (such as questions that could be answered by a quick look in the CSM / Chilton's / Motor / Haynes, which is to say, also through Google). I make a concerted effort to get a proper service manual the moment I get a car, and have done so for 35 years, I also keep a supply of old multi-make manuals on hand, in case a "surprise" car "follows me home," and at this very moment, I am using software to automatically crawl through a large Chrysler site and download gigabytes of manuals and training materials, even though I don't own any Chrysler products, so the sort of helplessness that makes a person have to ask a question he could easily answer for himself rankles me.
I appreciate your concerns in creating this thread, and I respect your opinion, but I believe that the example you cited does not rise to the level of significant offense.
That being said, I will be thinking about your comment over the coming days.
Thank you for thinking of others and for posting this.
- Eric
First, for our listening audience across this great Land, the thread in question is here.
One poster was was nice to the OP (which he isn't when it comes to Kurt, whom you mentioned, or his organization), Dave and Z11 were slightly snarky.
I can see your point that the responses you call out could easily have been phrased in a more welcoming way, but I do not see the way that they were phrased as having been severely nasty. Snarky, yes, but I suspect the tone in the minds of the posters as they were typing was more jovial than mean-spirited - Would you have felt so negatively if they had included smiley faces after their posts?
I would never criticize a poster for being too nice (well, other than a certain person selling on eBay recently, who just doesn't want to admit that he's completely in the right), but I believe that a certain amount of snark (which is not the same as nastiness) is expected and reasonable on the interwebs - it is not intended cruelly, and is part of the "joking" or "ribbing" that has occurred between people for millennia.
Since your oblique description of the habitual perpetrators could be seen as fitting me, I will say that I probably do get sharper than I should on occasion, but I believe that most of the time my posts are well within the bounds of normal internet propriety, and further, that I also provide meaningful help to most posters to whom I respond. I think each of us has his own "pet peeves" (and if you want to see a thread get shut down, just start one called "Pet Peeves..."), and mine include HEI conversions without good reason (and, yes, there are good reasons), thoughtless "improvements" in general, and failure to look up the obvious (such as questions that could be answered by a quick look in the CSM / Chilton's / Motor / Haynes, which is to say, also through Google). I make a concerted effort to get a proper service manual the moment I get a car, and have done so for 35 years, I also keep a supply of old multi-make manuals on hand, in case a "surprise" car "follows me home," and at this very moment, I am using software to automatically crawl through a large Chrysler site and download gigabytes of manuals and training materials, even though I don't own any Chrysler products, so the sort of helplessness that makes a person have to ask a question he could easily answer for himself rankles me.
I appreciate your concerns in creating this thread, and I respect your opinion, but I believe that the example you cited does not rise to the level of significant offense.
That being said, I will be thinking about your comment over the coming days.
Thank you for thinking of others and for posting this.
- Eric
Last edited by MDchanic; March 2nd, 2015 at 12:54 PM.
March 1st, 2015, 09:41 PM
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Eric ty for responding the example I cited was chosen to due to being most recent not most outrageous. My goal was and still is not to identify anyone as not seeing a benefit in that now. I hold and believe moderating will HELP and it will either improve or not. By no means, cant stress this enough I do not think this is an everyday occurrence. And yes do admit in this particular episode Alan was nice and helpful but seen otherwise from him in the past. Cant speak on Kurt's and Alan's relationship w specifics, but I have incredible amount of respect for Kurt. This is a guy who emails me and corrects me w constructive criticism. I mention that only that it is an effective tool as opposed to being snarky on a public thread. Would I have felt so negatively if they included a smiley face, cant answer that without knowing true intentions of the responder. For example a moderator got snarky w me as of late I rebutted with my statement followed by a smiling face however I wasn't smiling.
Yes I have seen your a lot your threads and found them helpful to many as well as genuine in nature. Your knowledge base is admirable. I never found your comments mean but as you described more joking in manner. So long story short your name has never come up.
And not sure what you seen of my other posts but I tend to advocate for people and admit tingly stick my nose perhaps where it shouldn't be. To be honest just don't like seeing people treated unfairly on here especially new members - no reason for it is there?
Again ty for you share
Sincerely Dean
Yes I have seen your a lot your threads and found them helpful to many as well as genuine in nature. Your knowledge base is admirable. I never found your comments mean but as you described more joking in manner. So long story short your name has never come up.
And not sure what you seen of my other posts but I tend to advocate for people and admit tingly stick my nose perhaps where it shouldn't be. To be honest just don't like seeing people treated unfairly on here especially new members - no reason for it is there?
Again ty for you share
Sincerely Dean
Last edited by dnmfranco; March 1st, 2015 at 09:59 PM.
March 1st, 2015, 10:01 PM
#4
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March 1st, 2015, 11:11 PM
#5
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I read the thread in question and I don't think there's a problem. Maybe Dave's rebuke was a little stern, but at the same time it's important to make an effort to get things right too. Expressing oneself clearly using correct terminology can go a long way toward earning credibility.
In the short time I've been here, I've already made a couple of posts wherein I got something wrong, and I was apprised of it in no uncertain terms. No harm, no foul -- next time I'll make sure I have my facts straight before I shoot my mouth off or ask a stupid question.
In the short time I've been here, I've already made a couple of posts wherein I got something wrong, and I was apprised of it in no uncertain terms. No harm, no foul -- next time I'll make sure I have my facts straight before I shoot my mouth off or ask a stupid question.
March 1st, 2015, 11:30 PM
#6
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Its not about the one thread, that was simply the latest example to illustrate a behavior. Obviously there was a problem in the fact that there were 3 separate responses addressing the same theme like you said a little stern.
Yes of course there should be effort to clarify what is correct and not but there is also a way to do it. And again, of course using correct terminology can lead to earning credibility if done tactfully.
Yes of course there should be effort to clarify what is correct and not but there is also a way to do it. And again, of course using correct terminology can lead to earning credibility if done tactfully.
March 2nd, 2015, 12:02 AM
#8
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Absolutely, and no disrespect but you mentioned that you are fairly new; this has been going on and (again not everyday) but since my joining in 2011.
And at this point I probably should keep my mouth shut but I was the high school kid that got suspended for fighting bullies picking on Jewish kids. So hard to change people's innate behavior at either spectrum.
oh on a positive note love your car
March 2nd, 2015, 05:52 AM
#9
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Just a reminder to ask all to be more civil in communications
I agree with Dean. I believe that several years ago the moderators were quick to stop someone from flaming another member. I think that gradually we've allowed things to slip and that the site is less friendly, helpful and supportive.
Once we were all newbies and I think of the friends and support I had back when I first began turning wrenches and got into this hobby. I would like to consider this a wake up call asking all of us to think about how we're coming across before hitting the enter key.
John
Once we were all newbies and I think of the friends and support I had back when I first began turning wrenches and got into this hobby. I would like to consider this a wake up call asking all of us to think about how we're coming across before hitting the enter key.
John
March 2nd, 2015, 07:13 AM
#10
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I think there's a general problem with long time and well versed members tending to jump down new members throats when they ask the same questions that we've all heard over and over again. I'm guilty of it too. A lot of poeple don't realize that the search option doesn't take you back more than five years so it's often difficullt to find things. You'll find that if you Google search what you're looking for it will go back much further.
That being said, I think it would be a heck of a lot nicer to refer new members (or old members asking the same stupid questions...
) to the "Search" functions and how it works. I still can't figure out why it refuses to unclude "common" phrases, or words that are too "short"
BTW, I came here from ROP. This place is like Disney World...
That being said, I think it would be a heck of a lot nicer to refer new members (or old members asking the same stupid questions...
) to the "Search" functions and how it works. I still can't figure out why it refuses to unclude "common" phrases, or words that are too "short"BTW, I came here from ROP. This place is like Disney World...
March 2nd, 2015, 07:20 AM
#11
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I immediately stopped reading that thread after seeing the two responses that followed Allan's good one. Give a new guy a good answer then some knowledge of Oldsmobile jargon so he knows. Don't make him feel like he needs go home and stay off our forum lawn.
March 2nd, 2015, 07:57 AM
#13
morgan
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thats pretty good Dean...and your right about the advancement of the hobby, and i will mention what burns my *** also is when people post a pic of someone elses oldsmobile on ebay or craigslist that either has a far out electric green paint job, lambo doors or just something uniquely modified...and the comments start'' he must be blind...what an eyesore'' and other negative comments the way i see it is someone spent a lot of time on an oldsmobile and i give him credit for doing his thing... i certainly could chime in about some of the people that bash someones car with comments about their piecemeal put together 50% chinese and fake musclecar
March 2nd, 2015, 08:02 AM
#14
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How about this site develops a meaningful FAQ section that answers all of those "Oh no not again" questions, so that we don't have to keep re-addressing them over and over again?
After all, that's the POINT of FAQ sections.
NO, I am not volunteering, but perhaps we could create a thread where we "crowdsource" exactly which questions they are, and then find the best threads / answers, and have someone with the appropriate mystical powers tack it all together into a proper FAQ?
"What's the fastest HEI?"
"Why does my fuel gauge point East?"
"What motor oil should I use?"
"Do I need octane booster?"
"What motor mounts do I need?" [Ha ha, Joe, you wrote it, but there's no FAQ to help them find it]
"How powerful is my engine?"
Thoughts?
- Eric
March 2nd, 2015, 08:27 AM
#16
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What Mike is saying I'm sure has happened. Where I have seen the worse is someone selling a car or misidentifying a part and they are very new.
The solutions are easy you don't need to create more forums or sections.
Simply moderate , yes you cant see every thread understood but when you do see it address it.
All the members that shared their negative experiences w me, the same people were mentioned . We all know who they are . Screw side stepping the bush deal w the problem head on. You will get quicker results and less people leaving.
The solutions are easy you don't need to create more forums or sections.
Simply moderate , yes you cant see every thread understood but when you do see it address it.
All the members that shared their negative experiences w me, the same people were mentioned . We all know who they are . Screw side stepping the bush deal w the problem head on. You will get quicker results and less people leaving.
March 2nd, 2015, 11:17 AM
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#17 oldsmobiledave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 442Fred
Geez "OldsmobileDave" really impressive perspective.
I have only been on this site for a short time compared to some but I have witnessed some of the most petty whiney people imaginable when it comes to showing just how smart you really are.......... or aren't!
This guys comes looking for information and you belittle him while you think you are educating him, I just don't follow your logic. If you were to offer a solution first and then correct him in something other than a snarky manner then I might agree with your point about the OAI hoods.
Just so you know I own 11 ram air cars with OAI and no I am not ignorant or trying to be a jerk but rather making a point call it what you will everyone knows what I am talking about.
When people leave this site like 68post and others all of a sudden this place is no longer a reference or of any value. So consider that before you type your next message to yourself because everyone went some place else. I haven't decided to leave just yet but I am close, so let this be a wake up call to all of the snarky posters here. Treat people with respect or we all lose out in the end.
I am hoping this resonates with you and others about being civil and offering real help or maybe you should take a break from the keyboard.
You are entitled to your opinion but it wont change my position.
Did you not read where I stated that my comments were never meant to be mean spirited? And I did make a suggestion I suggested he ask for a part by its' correct nomenclature.
The problem with words is that they lack emotion. Often a reader puts their own slant on those words depending on their mood or interpretation.
You and others are making a mountain out of a mole hill. My comments were not offensive nor mean spirited. No apology is forthcoming.
per Eric moved this entry to here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 442Fred
Geez "OldsmobileDave" really impressive perspective.
I have only been on this site for a short time compared to some but I have witnessed some of the most petty whiney people imaginable when it comes to showing just how smart you really are.......... or aren't!
This guys comes looking for information and you belittle him while you think you are educating him, I just don't follow your logic. If you were to offer a solution first and then correct him in something other than a snarky manner then I might agree with your point about the OAI hoods.
Just so you know I own 11 ram air cars with OAI and no I am not ignorant or trying to be a jerk but rather making a point call it what you will everyone knows what I am talking about.
When people leave this site like 68post and others all of a sudden this place is no longer a reference or of any value. So consider that before you type your next message to yourself because everyone went some place else. I haven't decided to leave just yet but I am close, so let this be a wake up call to all of the snarky posters here. Treat people with respect or we all lose out in the end.
I am hoping this resonates with you and others about being civil and offering real help or maybe you should take a break from the keyboard.
You are entitled to your opinion but it wont change my position.
Did you not read where I stated that my comments were never meant to be mean spirited? And I did make a suggestion I suggested he ask for a part by its' correct nomenclature.
The problem with words is that they lack emotion. Often a reader puts their own slant on those words depending on their mood or interpretation.
You and others are making a mountain out of a mole hill. My comments were not offensive nor mean spirited. No apology is forthcoming.
per Eric moved this entry to here
March 2nd, 2015, 11:26 AM
#18
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March 2nd, 2015, 11:29 AM
#19
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Dave of course you are entitled to your opinion as we all are.
And whether the comment was meant or not to be mean spirited obviously we don't know. However that's how it came across to many who commented.
Yes words from a key board lack emotion which is why IMO one should take extra time when submitting a comment on a thread particularly when addressing new members.
In this case several people had a similar slant re the comment.
Mountain out a mole I guess that depends on each viewer.
Take for what's it worth its several people have voiced their concerns w this and the majority have gone else where.
In addition they don't have much positive to say about their experience here.
And as we know that spreads. So if this what you guys want who don't see a problem in this issue carry on.
And whether the comment was meant or not to be mean spirited obviously we don't know. However that's how it came across to many who commented.
Yes words from a key board lack emotion which is why IMO one should take extra time when submitting a comment on a thread particularly when addressing new members.
In this case several people had a similar slant re the comment.
Mountain out a mole I guess that depends on each viewer.
Take for what's it worth its several people have voiced their concerns w this and the majority have gone else where.
In addition they don't have much positive to say about their experience here.
And as we know that spreads. So if this what you guys want who don't see a problem in this issue carry on.
March 2nd, 2015, 12:49 PM
#21
It strikes me as all this holier than thou mindset, masquerading as smug snarkiness, is just so unnecessary. The useless keyboard bravado you sometimes see here does nothing to further our hobby, nor our humanity.
March 2nd, 2015, 12:52 PM
#22
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March 2nd, 2015, 01:40 PM
#23
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i agree w cant get emotions from a keyboard and if anyone has ever posted from a phone brevity is the norm. I can easily type out a long reply w explanations and hyperlinks and pictures, but on a phone or to a lesser extent an ipad any replies are shorter and perhaps more terse appearing...
March 2nd, 2015, 01:40 PM
#24
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it is funny, these forumns were built on people asking questions and other people answering them, but some people cant be bothered to answer the same questions over and over. take motor mounts for example. theres at least 3 guys who will take the time to post and yell at a newbie for not searching it first. hes a newbie, how does he know hes supposed to search motormounts first? but if he wants to know about a w-31 with a cigarette lighter delete plate just fire away and all kinds of answers will come pouring in to answer his question.
March 2nd, 2015, 01:58 PM
#25
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it is funny, these forumns were built on people asking questions and other people answering them, but some people cant be bothered to answer the same questions over and over. take motor mounts for example. theres at least 3 guys who will take the time to post and yell at a newbie for not searching it first. hes a newbie, how does he know hes supposed to search motormounts first? but if he wants to know about a w-31 with a cigarette lighter delete plate just fire away and all kinds of answers will come pouring in to answer his question.
Some forget it's a hobby on here getting very lost in translation
March 2nd, 2015, 02:00 PM
#26
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- Eric
March 2nd, 2015, 02:27 PM
#29
morgan
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i dont think so myself....its a forum and you should expect multiple questions...forget the FAQ sections and what not might as well just tell them to look it up in the service manual then
March 2nd, 2015, 02:49 PM
#30
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As for the flaming issue; I've seen some nasty stuff here but it doesn't hold a candle to other forums I've joined. We're doing okay. Of course it could be better.
Maybe we should start with a mission statement. Why are we here? Who are we helping? I see it as a place to give and receive help, yes. But also to bequeath our (mostly your) knowledge to a new generation of classic car enthusiasts and to make sure the name "Oldsmobile" is not forgotten.
As far as I'm concerned, this forum has set the standard. We should be proud.
Lastly, what is the fastest HEI anyway?
March 2nd, 2015, 02:57 PM
#31
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So what if the same question gets repeated over and over? There are only so many questions to be asked about these things. If one is tired of answering a particular question don't answer it, somebody else probably will.
March 2nd, 2015, 03:28 PM
#32
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So when people don't post enough info about selling a car and their post receives nasty comments what then? Set up a section how to sell.
Point being , address the behavior .
People should be feel free to post without getting bombarded .
You can create as many sections as you want but that's not going to stop the issue.
March 2nd, 2015, 03:37 PM
#33
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March 2nd, 2015, 03:45 PM
#34
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Thanks Dean for revisiting this topic. It seems we have to do this every so often to remind everyone why this is a great website and the reasons we are all part of it. It's good to vent, critique, and self police ourselves periodically to get everyone back on track.
IMHO moderators can only do so much. Sometimes we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Some people think we overstep our bounds while others want more. Where do we draw the line?
I read about 90% of all threads and posts, yeah have a lot of time on my hands sometimes. For the most part I think this site is tame by comparison to others I'm part of and very friendly and cordial. As with all Forums that involve people, your going to have a wide swing in personalities and disagreements. For the most part we as members seem to handle them pretty well and move on.
On any given day there are about 2-300 visits by both members and guests, with about 2-5 guests converting to members daily. So it's understandable to get repeat questions, we've made stickies of some of the most popular topics. The suggestion earlier of ignoring and let someone else handle it is good as long it gets handled.
There are some great people on this site and I've had the opportunity to meet a few at our local get togethers and would love to meet more. Lets be open to the fact that there are differing views towards things and we can agree to disagree sometimes. I've seen people driven away for some pretty petty things since joining in 2009, and I've seen many changes to prevent it from happening in the future. Are we perfect, no, but we are still growing.
Again, I for one want to thank all the people that are part of this site for contributing and being a part of it. It's the people that make the site successful.
IMHO moderators can only do so much. Sometimes we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Some people think we overstep our bounds while others want more. Where do we draw the line?
I read about 90% of all threads and posts, yeah have a lot of time on my hands sometimes. For the most part I think this site is tame by comparison to others I'm part of and very friendly and cordial. As with all Forums that involve people, your going to have a wide swing in personalities and disagreements. For the most part we as members seem to handle them pretty well and move on.
On any given day there are about 2-300 visits by both members and guests, with about 2-5 guests converting to members daily. So it's understandable to get repeat questions, we've made stickies of some of the most popular topics. The suggestion earlier of ignoring and let someone else handle it is good as long it gets handled.
There are some great people on this site and I've had the opportunity to meet a few at our local get togethers and would love to meet more. Lets be open to the fact that there are differing views towards things and we can agree to disagree sometimes. I've seen people driven away for some pretty petty things since joining in 2009, and I've seen many changes to prevent it from happening in the future. Are we perfect, no, but we are still growing.
Again, I for one want to thank all the people that are part of this site for contributing and being a part of it. It's the people that make the site successful.
March 2nd, 2015, 04:11 PM
#35
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Scottsdale Arizona
Posts: 712
While the FAQ section would be good for motor mounts and other standard questions but in the case of the question about a hood the answer will change based on who is producing what and when. Product info in an FAQ never a good idea. Just a thought
March 2nd, 2015, 06:27 PM
#36
March 2nd, 2015, 08:45 PM
#37
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Charleston, West Virginia
Posts: 1,190
I admit I don't keep up with every thread, but, from my perspective this site is very civilized.
Can't remember a thread by a newbie when he wasn't warmly welcomed.
(Didn't say "he or she" only because I don't recall any "shes".)
Although I've seen some minor "scraps", I haven't seen any serious friction in threads on this site.
In fact, I came to this site for some relief from a certain, very adversarial Olds site I used to frequent.
So far, with some very minor exceptions, I'm very comfortable here.
Lots of nice people.
Can't remember a thread by a newbie when he wasn't warmly welcomed.
(Didn't say "he or she" only because I don't recall any "shes".)
Although I've seen some minor "scraps", I haven't seen any serious friction in threads on this site.
In fact, I came to this site for some relief from a certain, very adversarial Olds site I used to frequent.
So far, with some very minor exceptions, I'm very comfortable here.
Lots of nice people.
March 2nd, 2015, 09:09 PM
#38
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 10,258
Thanks Dean for revisiting this topic. It seems we have to do this every so often to remind everyone why this is a great website and the reasons we are all part of it. It's good to vent, critique, and self police ourselves periodically to get everyone back on track.
IMHO moderators can only do so much. Sometimes we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Some people think we overstep our bounds while others want more. Where do we draw the line?
I read about 90% of all threads and posts, yeah have a lot of time on my hands sometimes. For the most part I think this site is tame by comparison to others I'm part of and very friendly and cordial. As with all Forums that involve people, your going to have a wide swing in personalities and disagreements. For the most part we as members seem to handle them pretty well and move on.
On any given day there are about 2-300 visits by both members and guests, with about 2-5 guests converting to members daily. So it's understandable to get repeat questions, we've made stickies of some of the most popular topics. The suggestion earlier of ignoring and let someone else handle it is good as long it gets handled.
There are some great people on this site and I've had the opportunity to meet a few at our local get togethers and would love to meet more. Lets be open to the fact that there are differing views towards things and we can agree to disagree sometimes. I've seen people driven away for some pretty petty things since joining in 2009, and I've seen many changes to prevent it from happening in the future. Are we perfect, no, but we are still growing.
Again, I for one want to thank all the people that are part of this site for contributing and being a part of it. It's the people that make the site successful.
IMHO moderators can only do so much. Sometimes we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Some people think we overstep our bounds while others want more. Where do we draw the line?
I read about 90% of all threads and posts, yeah have a lot of time on my hands sometimes. For the most part I think this site is tame by comparison to others I'm part of and very friendly and cordial. As with all Forums that involve people, your going to have a wide swing in personalities and disagreements. For the most part we as members seem to handle them pretty well and move on.
On any given day there are about 2-300 visits by both members and guests, with about 2-5 guests converting to members daily. So it's understandable to get repeat questions, we've made stickies of some of the most popular topics. The suggestion earlier of ignoring and let someone else handle it is good as long it gets handled.
There are some great people on this site and I've had the opportunity to meet a few at our local get togethers and would love to meet more. Lets be open to the fact that there are differing views towards things and we can agree to disagree sometimes. I've seen people driven away for some pretty petty things since joining in 2009, and I've seen many changes to prevent it from happening in the future. Are we perfect, no, but we are still growing.
Again, I for one want to thank all the people that are part of this site for contributing and being a part of it. It's the people that make the site successful.
Now I'm not trying to stir anything, the above was to establish my position. Yes, people should be decent people, but the call-out to people to improve their decency should be ideally by that person himself, then followed by the community. The comment does NOT then need deleted or censored by some big brother figure. We have way too much of that in our lives already with other things, and I feel that we can be gentlemen here.
There is also the concept of what is right to censor. I mean right, as opposed to "agreed to" or "having the power to affect." We all "agreed to" allow moderation if we didn't follow the forum rules when registering an account. These "by clicking here you agree to these terms and conditions" largely do not hold up legally due to being extortion (if you want THIS you must do THAT) of the, agreeably, mildest sort. And I also don't mean the concept of having the power to do something, therefore you should, either. The mods can nuke my post, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD.
What I mean is what is RIGHT to censor. You own your words, spoken and written. People are like "the mods can delete your stuff, therefore you don't own it" or, my personal fav "This is someone's HOUSE and you wouldn't SAY THAT in someone's HOUSE." The first is a red herring. To illustrate, everyone is cool with the mods deleting offensive posts. What if someone modified it to say something different? Could you meddle with someone's posts instead of just deleting them? Sure you can, but is it RIGHT?
The "house" comment shows how our society has yet to fully catch up to the digital age. People mistake proper decorum for the justification of censoring. If I said something rude in someone's house, he'd ask me to leave. If I said something rude here, I could, very reasonably, be banned. That's a direct comparison. What is NOT a direct comparison is saying that "since you wouldn't say that in someone's HOUSE, the mods should delete it." That is not direct; a direct analog to censoring someone's online comments would be to hop in the DeLorean, fly back in time five minutes, and shoot me before I could say it. Hopefully that explains how odious and heinous deleting someone's written thoughts are, even if they are offensive.
Then there is the whole subject of when a moderator gets biased and in a personal debate with the person they are moderating, and should recuse themselves for bias, but that never happens anywhere.
I hope that politely and calmly explains some dangers of moderation. Ideally, we all can be civil, and encourage others to be the same.
March 3rd, 2015, 06:21 AM
#39
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NEW HARTFORD CT
Posts: 2,632
This thread is starting to get lost. Its actually easier than everyone thinks.
Everyone knows who engages in this. But they have been empowered, their following clan and the fact that their behavior has never been addressed until very recent.
You seen it "yeah and he knows his stuff cold " and ect the sickening mindless followers. So it became accepted that they say what they want and how regardless of how it comes across.
Now the next problem the "good ole boy" issue. The people who engage in this are friendly with the moderators. One or two are moderators.
Solution this where its even easier if the powers to be can get to this point.
1) warning dealt w solely
2) 2nd and last warning all moderators are made aware
3) 3rd offense week off
anything after that should be kicked off sight regardless of who they are.
Why suggest a FAQ section when the moderators cant fully monitor what's going on now to no fault of their own.
Its a general problem on here too discussion and long winded threads. Use the common sense approach take what's in apparent in front of you the known facts and address them accordingly not hard really.
So there a complaint w a solution
Everyone knows who engages in this. But they have been empowered, their following clan and the fact that their behavior has never been addressed until very recent.
You seen it "yeah and he knows his stuff cold " and ect the sickening mindless followers. So it became accepted that they say what they want and how regardless of how it comes across.
Now the next problem the "good ole boy" issue. The people who engage in this are friendly with the moderators. One or two are moderators.
Solution this where its even easier if the powers to be can get to this point.
1) warning dealt w solely
2) 2nd and last warning all moderators are made aware
3) 3rd offense week off
anything after that should be kicked off sight regardless of who they are.
Why suggest a FAQ section when the moderators cant fully monitor what's going on now to no fault of their own.
Its a general problem on here too discussion and long winded threads. Use the common sense approach take what's in apparent in front of you the known facts and address them accordingly not hard really.
So there a complaint w a solution
March 3rd, 2015, 06:23 AM
#40
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NEW HARTFORD CT
Posts: 2,632
I'm in the moderators overstepping their bounds camp. Eric and I have butted heads a couple times, and since then have treated each other a little better mutually, so I think it's improving. On the other hand, there's another moderator on here who I simply don't wish to have any interaction with again.
Now I'm not trying to stir anything, the above was to establish my position. Yes, people should be decent people, but the call-out to people to improve their decency should be ideally by that person himself, then followed by the community. The comment does NOT then need deleted or censored by some big brother figure. We have way too much of that in our lives already with other things, and I feel that we can be gentlemen here.
There is also the concept of what is right to censor. I mean right, as opposed to "agreed to" or "having the power to affect." We all "agreed to" allow moderation if we didn't follow the forum rules when registering an account. These "by clicking here you agree to these terms and conditions" largely do not hold up legally due to being extortion (if you want THIS you must do THAT) of the, agreeably, mildest sort. And I also don't mean the concept of having the power to do something, therefore you should, either. The mods can nuke my post, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD.
What I mean is what is RIGHT to censor. You own your words, spoken and written. People are like "the mods can delete your stuff, therefore you don't own it" or, my personal fav "This is someone's HOUSE and you wouldn't SAY THAT in someone's HOUSE." The first is a red herring. To illustrate, everyone is cool with the mods deleting offensive posts. What if someone modified it to say something different? Could you meddle with someone's posts instead of just deleting them? Sure you can, but is it RIGHT?
The "house" comment shows how our society has yet to fully catch up to the digital age. People mistake proper decorum for the justification of censoring. If I said something rude in someone's house, he'd ask me to leave. If I said something rude here, I could, very reasonably, be banned. That's a direct comparison. What is NOT a direct comparison is saying that "since you wouldn't say that in someone's HOUSE, the mods should delete it." That is not direct; a direct analog to censoring someone's online comments would be to hop in the DeLorean, fly back in time five minutes, and shoot me before I could say it. Hopefully that explains how odious and heinous deleting someone's written thoughts are, even if they are offensive.
Then there is the whole subject of when a moderator gets biased and in a personal debate with the person they are moderating, and should recuse themselves for bias, but that never happens anywhere.
I hope that politely and calmly explains some dangers of moderation. Ideally, we all can be civil, and encourage others to be the same.
Now I'm not trying to stir anything, the above was to establish my position. Yes, people should be decent people, but the call-out to people to improve their decency should be ideally by that person himself, then followed by the community. The comment does NOT then need deleted or censored by some big brother figure. We have way too much of that in our lives already with other things, and I feel that we can be gentlemen here.
There is also the concept of what is right to censor. I mean right, as opposed to "agreed to" or "having the power to affect." We all "agreed to" allow moderation if we didn't follow the forum rules when registering an account. These "by clicking here you agree to these terms and conditions" largely do not hold up legally due to being extortion (if you want THIS you must do THAT) of the, agreeably, mildest sort. And I also don't mean the concept of having the power to do something, therefore you should, either. The mods can nuke my post, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD.
What I mean is what is RIGHT to censor. You own your words, spoken and written. People are like "the mods can delete your stuff, therefore you don't own it" or, my personal fav "This is someone's HOUSE and you wouldn't SAY THAT in someone's HOUSE." The first is a red herring. To illustrate, everyone is cool with the mods deleting offensive posts. What if someone modified it to say something different? Could you meddle with someone's posts instead of just deleting them? Sure you can, but is it RIGHT?
The "house" comment shows how our society has yet to fully catch up to the digital age. People mistake proper decorum for the justification of censoring. If I said something rude in someone's house, he'd ask me to leave. If I said something rude here, I could, very reasonably, be banned. That's a direct comparison. What is NOT a direct comparison is saying that "since you wouldn't say that in someone's HOUSE, the mods should delete it." That is not direct; a direct analog to censoring someone's online comments would be to hop in the DeLorean, fly back in time five minutes, and shoot me before I could say it. Hopefully that explains how odious and heinous deleting someone's written thoughts are, even if they are offensive.
Then there is the whole subject of when a moderator gets biased and in a personal debate with the person they are moderating, and should recuse themselves for bias, but that never happens anywhere.
I hope that politely and calmly explains some dangers of moderation. Ideally, we all can be civil, and encourage others to be the same.
I am coming across w full respect but don't understand your post and how it will remedy this situation at hand w/o making it more complicated.
