I have not tried to sell this car for the past year. I would like do some fixing up on it but i need it out of the way and also need money for my W-30 project.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221310411462...84.m1555.l2649

 

Given the original parts and history you have for this car, I suggest you have Stefano certify it as a w30. !! May help with the sale, and you could sell some more of your stash !
Just my .02

 

Hi Eric!

Looks like you might have 2 bidders interested at this time. Too bad they're penny ante with the bids though. Really strange thing I noted though - It has an AC dash, (although AC is missing from engine compartment but the alt is mounted for an AC car) but has ventilation pull ***** and panel on the right kickpanel. Probably a PO removed the AC and patched the firewall?

Do you know what all the holes in the air cleaner are for?

Hope you get it sold as the text in your ad is really clear about what the car is as it sits. Won't likely bring huge $$$ though since the cars provenance is lost. Still, whatever it brings will help your other project.

 

 

Eric, what's the build date on the car ?

 

5th week of October 1969

 

Not sure what the holes are for. Likely someone back in the day drilled them thinking it would get more air?

I didn't expect it to get to $3K this fast.

 

Eric, I hope you don't mind me chiming in on your thread. It seems that the key board commandos have called me out.

I'm on an Oldsmobile overdose anyway.

I saw you car on eBay a while back. I didn't think it was more than a year ago, but time does fly when your having fun.

I was a bidder on the car and based on the limited info you provided it certainly did appear that you may indeed could have a real but undocumented W-30.

The color combo of your car is very cool and unique.

I would start by trying to obtain an NICB report. You can usually get the report from your insurance company if they are members or a police authority. It really helps to try and find someone who is familiar with going back into the old archives.

This may or may not provide any additional clues. It will usually identify the dealership where the car was shipped to from Lansing as well as the delivery date. It may at times have other information listed.

I would check the Julian date of your rear end and see if it coincides with the build date of the car.

I would get an affidavit from the person you bought it from, or any prior owners verifying anything which is helpful to your cause.*

I would remove the non original paint on the hood, doors fenders and expose the original stripes where possible.

I would remove both front fenders if they are original and document the factory stamped holes for the W-30 emblems. While off the car I would inspect the inside of the fenders for factory crayon markings indicating that the fenders were designated for W-30 emblems.

I would take pictures of the undisturbed bolts holding the rear to the respective control arms as well as any other undisturbed W-30 potential identifiers, such as the master cylinder.

I would also show the original paint on the sport mirrors.

While no one item will guarantee what you have as any of it could be found on a regular 442, it is the cumulative probability of all the items pointing in that direction.

Good luck with the sale.

 

I have explored many ways to find something for this car and I can not. I would like to figure out the selling dealer, It would likely be somewhere in California because this car had California emissions. As for the rear end, I know it is not original because this car had the original W-27 in it when I got it. That is one of the parts I pulled. It was date coded correct and had 3.23 gears which is also correct for an A/C W-30. (this is an A/C car but all that was removed) I know it is a real W-30 but I just can not prove it.

 

PM sent.

 

I have a complete 70 W30 4-spd car,with the original paint,and all of the original pieces,but no paperwork. The current condition of how the car is,could be used to document the car from now on. Once it's restored,all those clues are list,and it's. clone.
I think from here on out,yours is a 70 442. Maybe I should do the same.

 

I just read the thread on the other W-30 you are restoring.

Cool W-30.

Are you saving that rear for the Blue W-30?

It is obvious that you are familiar with seeking out the details and documenting the clues and indicators for a real W-30. Just surprised that you didn't do it with this 442 as well.

Don't get me wrong, it is your car and you can do whatever you want with it.

Parting such a car out usually does maximize your return, so if that is your ultimate objective, then I can understand.

Once you allready had the wheel wells out, it wouldn't take much more time/work to get pictures of the factory punched / stamped emblem holes as well as the markings on the inside of the fenders.

We would have been happy to have displayed that car as found in the "Barn Find" segment of the MCACN show.

I tend to spend more time looking at the original cars as well as the partial in progress restorations.

 

Trust me, I turned this car inside out looking for any little hint of documentation of former owners, factory papers, markings, and anything else I could find. I took the W-27 out and had full intentions of keeping it and likely putting it in my W-30. It was the correct gears and date to match my car (although the rear end in my car is the original). The problem was that someone offered me much more than it was worth so I had to let it go. It makes me sick that I don't have it but at the same time I am not a rich guy and simply could not keep it for the money he was offering. As for the W markings on the inside of the fenders, I have never found a W-30 that had these markings till my blue one. I have had several, including the red one, apart over the years and thought it was a myth till I took the blue one apart. I did find a name to a former owner on a registration but can not locate him.
I was seriously thinking about contacting you about this car for that show. The reason I didn't was because I felt bad about taking the W-27 out of it.

 

Just looked and it is less than $700 from my reserve. Should I post what the reserve is on the ebay add? I never know the best thing to do on that.

 

I sense your frustration. I was conflicted too about pulling a W-27 rear out of a real factory installed W-31, which had no factory docs. The market was not considering the value of that rear and we put a date coded Iron 3.91 back in it.

I seriously got hate mail on that deal as I had disclosed that it went into my Black W-30 on another Forum.

I have found the converse regarding the crayon / pencil markings for W-30s in that most of the ones I have been able to properly inspect do indeed have them. Some are very difficult to see, but they are usually there. Also we have seen what we refer to as a "job number" on the other side of the same fender.

Just the stamped / punched fender holes and pics of the original stripes under the paint are going to be a solid clue.

 

But not enough to boost a sale. People want original documents. Paperwork. Anything can happen to these cars in 40+ years. The W27 could be ordered in anything. If the the car had original paint,it might help,but I can say that it does not help too much either.
I have some original W30 fenders with the pencil marks,and some that don't,so that's not foolproof either.
These cars were also getting wrecked like new Mustangs,back then,so it wasn't too difficult to find a complete wreck to salvage the parts,when the car was only a few years old.
The fact that not all of these cars came with paperwork in the first place is another reason why the ones that have them,bring the higher dollar.
If you have a W30,but no record or proof,and all the legit parts are missing,you are better off making it a 442.You will get a better return versus your efforts.
You gotta love the GS Buicks,and the GTO's,because their records prove it all. No ifs ands or buts.

 

No paperwork, no documentation, just can't prove that it is the real deal with some of these cars, we were pulling parts off of them 40 years ago from the junkyard, and using those parts on our Olds, not to clone or deceive, just because we wanted those parts on our cars ( hoods, intakes etc.). I really like the color of this one, and if I had the resources to buy and restore it, I would, and would accept the fact that it is probably an undocumented W30, and let it go at that.

 

This is Eric's thread, but I am going to respectfully disagree with you.

I have a good idea of what went on at the wrecking yards back in the day as I would spend hours pulling parts.

I do agree with what could have happened, however:

The statistical and/or mathematical probability or likley hood that a W-30 ended up in the scrap yard, with all of its parts intact (yes I know that it did happen) , with no damage to the original font fenders and or OAI hood and that both the damaged car and the car to be cloned were both built in Lansing Michigan, and painted the same color and and that the cloned car also had stripes painted over the original paint is just improbable.

I went thru the same learning curve with Z28 Camaros, long before the X-codes were figured out and then on to COPO Camaros before anyone kept track of BE rear date codes and body number sequences. I still have people who tell me that we can't verify a Z28 or a COPO without the original engine and or factory paperwork and that is just not the case.

It can be done and it has been done, but you need to take the cumulative effect of all the evidence collected.

As far as the Buicks and Pontiacs go, the documentation which does exist is not 100% complete in some cases and completely non existent in others. So nothing is ever 100% when it comes to these old cars.

One of the significant benefits to calling out such cars is that we have been able to reunite cars with, original drivetrains, original documentation and even original owners.

 

Eric this is my car a 71K original paint never been touched. Just a engine and trans rebuild. I was told all 69W30 cars had the front fenders marked at the factory with W30 on the inside. See the photos below. You can just make out the "W" and some of the "30". Very cool find!
Ken
69w30.jpg

w30lhfender.jpg
w30rhfender.jpg

 

to further push the thread tangent envelope, it's not just W-30s. I've seen several W-31s (including mine) with the W-31 grease pencil marks.

 

SX cars had them to.

This day in age,with the information available,one could have a 70 442,and carefully collect all the correct pieces,with correct dates,and make a convincing W30,except they still don't have documentation,so it still won't bring the respect or the coin that a documented car will. Period.
I think Eric did the right thing by removing what W30 parts were on the car,and selling it as a 70 442.
If I had a Wcar with documentation,that was missing a lot of parts,I would put forth the effort to locate everything. Otherwise,it is just not worth it. This is not my first rodeo,and most of the serious collectors out there are the same way.
My black car has what I consider "weak" documentation. I have the remains of the mouse-eaten broadcast card.The important proof is there. The body number,the W30 in box 9,and part of the paint code.The "9" of the "19" paint code. Luckily this car has ALL of the original and legit parts intact,so no scavenger hunt needed,but without that paper,I would have a big hill to climb,trying to prove what it is,and an even harder time if it were restored.It would be nicer if I had more documentation or a full broadcast card for it.

 

I always assumed the W was on the 68-69 W30 fenders because they were pierced and painted at Lansing and not at Fisher. Since the 68 442 numbers were in a different location (for the stripe) the fenders were distinctly different. I guess in 69 they are probably in the same location so that shoots that idea

I have no idea what sets a 68-69 W31 fender apart from a standard Cutlass fender or why it would have the W on them since they were pierced the same as the Cutlass.

 

Nice!

 

You may do so, but we did it (my friends and I) and that is a fact.

 

. But the stripe, and relocated numbers were available on non W30's as an option, and would therefore receive the same piercings.

 

Eric, sorry your thread was hijacked. Like Brian said, not all had the "w" pencil mark on the fender. Mine didn't. You can definitely tell the difference from factory stamped trim holes and ones that were drilled later. I agree with you guys that no docs and missing parts, you're better off selling it as a 442. Too many fakes out there.

 

I have seen the reference to "stamped" holes for the W30 emblems a number of times. I understand how they were done but can someone please explain what makes them appear different from drilled holes.

 

The impression through the metal,and what the holes look like on the backside. Once you get the emblems on,it all disappears

 

And, they're perfect fit to the emblem, no sloppiness.

 

half hour left and it has met reserve. Looks like it will sell.

 

Congrats Eric, one less headache.. :-)

 

LOL, I have not been paid yet.

 

The idiot that bought the car just admitted that he is not going to buy it. Ebay credited my account for the fees. At this time, I think I will pull the hood, rear end, Rally pack, and mirrors and add Cutlass parts and sell it local for a kid looking for a project.

I have now listed 7 cars on eBay and only one time did it work out.

 

Sorry to hear that, just way too many a-holes out there.

 

Man that sucks Eric. I know how you feel. I have had so many bullshitters in the last 2 weeks its crazy! How much are you gonna want for it as a cutlass? Feel free to call me when you have time.

 

I have a guy interested in it for $3500 but it will be summer before I have time to take it apart.

 

(I have no idea what sets a 68-69 W31 fender apart from a standard Cutlass fender or why it would have the W on them since they were pierced the same as the Cutlass. ) I BELIEVE IN 68/69 ITS JUST W O -MEANING " WITH OUTSIDE AIR " MY 68 HURST HAS IT ALSO THIS WAY THEY WOULD CUT THE HOLE IN THE FENDER WELL

 

$200 is all that separates the winning bid from #2 and #3, and all three are different bidders. Maybe you should extend the offer of sale to #2 and if no #3.

I am surprised because the winning bidder has 100% feedback and a couple hundred transactions. An e-bay sale isn't over until it's over, I sure don't have to tell you.

 

I thought about offering it to the 2nd place bidder but i am done. I have pretty much decided to part out the remaining goodies.

 

That's totally not cool.....sorry to hear that Eric. On the other side of the coin, I have won bid on three cars on eBay the last few months, a 442 and 2 studebakers. All three sellers gave me a line of BS, and disappeared on me. When I want to buy a car, I can't, LOL! Didn't cost me, but why would they list a car to sell, then not sell it?