Blackpage

Gentlemen,

I ask this because I have a 1972 Cutlass S that can use some work on the cowl, trunk and quarters. Patchwork, not a total replacement. The driver and passenger side floor is pretty bad. I removed, stripped, sanded and primed the trunk lid, hood, doors and fenders. Those pieces are set.

I had a body man come by and check the car out and give me a price on getting the rest of the car (the tub) "ready for paint" along with refitting the pieces I mentioned. He was a friend of a friend and his price was $15,000 ! Am I nieve to think that his price was outrageous or is that what I'm really looking at?

These are the the pictures I have right now. I'll take more tomorrow if you feel they are neccessary. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR INPUT.

Blackpage

I found a few more pictures

coppercutlass

That price is outrageous. Going rate labor wise can vary but is usually betwee 45 to 60 and fabrication can be up there. you should do al the easy stuff your self like floor pans, cowl an leave the big work to the pro's like quarter replacement. If all your ride needs is patch panels you should do those your self. Buy some books take your time and the results will be just as good as anybody else's .

sammy

Do not know particulars about your car, but it seems to me to be excessive.
I have a 61 Buick that was one of my first resto's Started at 15to 20000 and ended up at 52000
Point:set limits as to how much at each stage of resto
point:I never hire any friend,or friend of a friend or friend of.....to do any resto work
Get a pro and a proper quote- this has sure helped me since the Buick episode, I get a better outcome without the headaches.....or as copper cutlass suggested,depends on your wants

Ted

Rickman48

He's been inhaling too much urethane fumes, unless he's counting show paint!!!
Different parts of the country get different prices for bodywork, though.
Shop around - stay away from friends, and ask to look at samples of their work.
Most body shops are slow, due to lack of snow, and will negotiate accordingly.
Get everything in writing, and a estimated completion date!
Look for restored cars around the block - most body men are proud!!

gearheads78

Hard to say. When I worked in a resoration shop 20 years ago the average job was about 12-15K and we only did paint and body. Trim, mechanical and electrical all done at other shops. We had a 1.5-2 year waiting list. At todays material costs plus $50+ per hour its not hard to add up quick.

MDchanic

Forgive me if this sounds dumb, but I don't see anything in your pictures that looks like it needs a lot of work.
Frankly, that car looks pretty good.

As far as bodywork pricing, the only thing I know is that if you have to ask how much it'll cost, you can't afford it.

Much cheaper to buy a welder, and air compressor, and some paint guns and learn as you go.
Even if you have to grind off what you did and start from scratch a few times, it'll still be done faster than a shop would do it.

- Eric

Blackpage

I would think they are proud. If this guy was, every job would be a show car. Especially for the $$$ he's asking IMO.

Blackpage

WOW! This really is an eye opener.

Blackpage

Allan R

I don't agree with Eric. When you're working on a project and don't know what related costs will be, its the best idea to ask how much it'll cost. That helps in deciding whether to proceed or put on hold. Also a very important factor in the budgeting for the car.

re: learning to weld? Hey, I will if you will. My welding skills are legendary. I can start fires with the best of them. Next fall I'm going to take some basic courses so I can do some of these things without calling 911.

I do agree that a good compressor and air tools make life a lot easier than basic wrenching. Far as painting goes though, I'll prep the car, but I would rather leave the final finishing to a pro for the best results.

coppercutlass

Everyone has to start somewhere i bought my car when i started my career in the autobody field and i bought it with the intentions to further learn and better my skills . I never had anyone hold my hand i asked my co workers for advice and tips . It took me 1.5 years to do my car i spenk 3 k on the body parts ,paint, and materials and at the time i was not good enough with a paint gun so a childhood friend's brother painted it for me . Your car does not appear to be as bad as mine was. I would try to fix small stuff just so you can get a feel for it and once your comfortable go for it.

TK-65

50-60 bucks an hour plus all supplies (paper, primer, paint/clear) add up quick. I just spent 200 bucks for a quart of paint. Imagine what it costs to paint a whole car.

allyolds68

I did all my own metal work. It probably wasn't a straight as it should have been for the body work and paint guy that eventually painted the car but it was good enough. I wasn't looking for a show car, I just wanted a solid driver that I wouldn't have the worry about rust coming through in a couple years.

I probably spent 500 hours on metal work. Stripping paint, replace floors, trunk, outer wheel housings, 1/4's, fender patch panels, built front fender inside braces, body braces, windshield base, front body mounts, inside trunk lip, a couple soft spots in the frame, fixed a tweaked front frame horn, core support patch, rebuilt the front cowl corners.

I'm probably forgetting a few things but you get the idea. 500 hrs x $45/hr = $22,500 plus the cost of the panels, gas, mig wire, .024 cut off wheels, wire wheels to strip the paint, etc. Could a professional have done it faster, sure. Could he have done it in half the time, probably not.


Edit: & BTW the car was about $6,000 for bodywork & paint on top of that. (The red paint was $600/gal)

MDchanic

It's a figure of speech, Allan.

It rings true, though. Unless you are essentially so wealthy that "misplacing" $50,000 wouldn't upset you much, you really shouldn't be thinking about paying for a full-on bodywork and paint job. People spend less money on entire cars, new from the factory. The numbers some people throw around for restoration work make my head spin.

- Eric

ent72olds

Wow...must have been PPG!

coppercutlass

ppg dupont it's all going up. I bought paint for my olds in older drr activated base for 400 for a gallon with activator and reducer. A pint of the "same color" as ppg told me in dbc was 68 dollars for a pint . I bought a pint of chili pepper red for my dad's dodge durango it was 89 dollars for a pint un reduced and i had to buy base maker duponts reducer it cost 35 thats 124 for a pint and a qt. of reducer .

sammy

I think it's a learning curve that cost me huge-was not quite 50 g's but close-and I am not rich. Actually had to take on more work to cover it. These guys are smart how they ,overcharge.They saw me coming and capitalized on my youthful enthusiasm for an old car

There are lots of guys out there without work willing to work for a days wage-you just have to find them.........

bccan

Food for thought on this subject w/ some itemization, take it fwiw.

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...paint-job.html

MDchanic

To make my point as clearly as possible:

I play with cars for fun.

Once you start adding zeros on to the costs, it stops being fun.

With the numbers being batted around here, it's not good business either - these cars will never make back the money put into them, never mind turn a profit.

So I would suggest that unless you have so much money that these sums are insignificant for you, or unless spending money is your idea of fun, you should limit your losses, plan to do as much work yourself as possible, and scale back your expectations to what you can comfortably afford - we'd all like a blinding, foot-deep paint job, but for most of us, that paint job, and the underlying bodywork, is as out of reach as a brand new Bugatti Veyron.

- Eric

stevengerard

when I was looking to do my car I got estimates from 4k all the way up to 80k with a few places who said, we don't give estimates we do what it takes.

Most guys were in the 7500 - 15000 and I knew it would double. The shop I used was awful the price went up, the time tripled, same horror story as many folks had.

I used to work on cars when I was a kid, painted a bunch of cars for the shop next to where I lived so I know I can do it, but as much of a hobby as this is and as much as a dig these cars, with work and four kids playing with a car is low on the priority list. So, I appreciate folks who do it themselves but sometimes it just makes sense to have someone else do some of it. I hope to do way more on my SX and the new hardtop but that's easy to say since I have a convertible I can drive around in. When you only have one car do you sepnd years working on it or pay someone to help get it done quicker.

The one thing I would say is do not over restore it, enjoy the darn thing

allyolds68

PPG dbc. It also required a more expensive clear than the PPG shop line.

sammy

I often wonder when I post ,if what I ask or reply to has all been said before
"5000 to start" is what a local body shop said and he would not take the job on unless both back fenders were replaced.They were not that bad to start with.
I wanted the car kept as orig as possible-no aftermarket metal that would bend if a fly landed on it! 5000 to start-what the heck does that mean????

allyolds68

I'm guessing that's what he was charging for paint if the car was clean with no metal work or extensive body straightening required.

I got estimates from custom restoration/hot rod shops as high as $12,000 for mine. Both places that quoted it that way said they would not honor a fixed price. The $12,000 was only a ballpark number. The place that I eventually had it painted at gave me a fixed price and the only upcharge was for the PPG dbc. I got a decent paint job for that price but not a "show quality" job. I could pick out a lot of imperfections. The car is back at the shop that painted it since early November to fix some things & I'm just hoping it doesn't come back worse than it was before I sent it there.

Because bodywork and paint is a very labor intensive process the price varies greatly depending on where you have the work done. Near a major city you may pay as high as $100/ hr for the work, in the middle of nowhere as little as $25/hr. Guys that paint on the side charge even less, but they typically won't have all the fancy paint booths & stuff. The place that did mine didn't have a paint booth but they were set up nicely with curtains. They charged $45 an hour.

MDchanic

It means, "Take out a second mortgage in the body shop owner's name," that's what it means.

- Eric

Allan R

Sorry Ted, that sounds wrong. I don't think it's reasonable for a shop to make that kind of demand. If (and that's a BIG IF) the metal is in good condition, there's no reason to replace it. IMO they wanted to replace as much metal as possible for 2 reasons: to guarantee their work on fresh metal, and to make some money. If a shop told me that about my car, all they would get is a good look at the tail lights driving away. I think some of the shops give those quotes simply because in today's body market, the focus is more on replacing parts than repairing them. Getting to be a dying trade with 'some' shops. Why do they do this? Simple: Insurance companies. It costs less time to replace with new than repair. + they pay fixed rates.

eg of stupid pricing? My wifes Saturn was rear ended by a CK1500 in a parking lot. Damage was a scuffed bumper, broken tail light assembly, and minor scuffing of the paint. Body shop estimate? 880.00 Now this was going to be an insurance claim anyway, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out why 880.00 They charged over 148.00 for the taillight from GM. I found a 'damn near perfect SET of them at the boneyard for 10.00 so I scooped them both. They quoted to paint the whole rear quarter panel. I got out my polisher and in lterally 5 minutes there was no evidence of any damage at all. (this brought the ins claim amount down because no painting was needed - otherwise it would have been well over 1000.00) The bumper cover scuffs would easily come out with a small torch across the surface.
Anyway, I took it in for repairs but told the insurance - NO Painting - not needed. Told ins co I had a replacement excellent quality lens - just give me 5.00 reimbursement - NO. So I literally watched the GM body guy come out to the car and take off the old bumper cover and reinstall the new one in about 10 minutes. Body shop labor was charged out at 1.8 for removal, install and refinishing. ???? The taillight was an OEM NOS Saturn lens. You undo 2 side screws and pull out the assembly. Undo the pigtail - ta da! Reinstall? reverse the process = takes all of 2 mintues. Ins paid .5 hour labor flat rate.. Hell, I could have done all that too and in 15 minutes the car would have been done. Oh the cost of the bumper COVER? 428.50

I keep all my invoices for my cars. Here's how it broke down:

Labor rate: 67.00 / hour (2010) X 2.3 hours = 154.00 + tax - net 161.80
Parts replacement summary = 676.25 + tax - net 710.08
'Additional costs' what ever those are = 7.35
Tax = 41.87
Gross *and I do mean gross!) = 879.22

Sorry for the rant. But IMO you are the customer and should have the final say on what is being done to your car since it's not an insurance claim! I know you want it done right; so does the body shop. But they should be able to give a 'ball park' quote based on a really good close inspection of the car. They ALWAYS add the caveat that 'could be more based on hidden damage or rust" I can live with that so long as they call me down to see what they found.

MDchanic

You go, Allan!

Allan R

FWIW Eric, I do agree that most of the resto expectations, a lot of guys expect perfection for dime store prices. Not realistic. I know there are lots of variables in restos that absolutely justify your comment about the second mortgage. I like to think (in my rose colored world) that you'll get good value for good $$. But in some cases (not all - there are some really decent shops out there) the amount of labor and cost of resto goes up 'just because it's a resto'. On the other hand there are shady shops that will screw you faster than a Craftsman C3. So........if you brought in your Beemer and said " I need the body restored, c/w paint " do you really think you're looking at a 50K bill? Heck no. And knowing you, there's no way you'd spend more money than the car's worth - it would be a straight across replacement..

I'm sure the other GM, Ford, Mopar etc brands would share similar views on the thread topic. I think bottom line is to be prepared for the worst, and go with a shop you absolutely trust. The $$$ is always a factor. I would NEVER second mortgage my house for a car though.

Thx for the shoulder bud.

ent72olds

Allan...you make the industry sound pretty simple...how long have you been in the business? The collision industry isn't what it used to be. Strict regulations, insurance co's with their hand out, lack of good help rising prices of P&M which ins co's don't usually compensate for, means the shop owner/manager/writer has to be more educated and run the shop more efficient than ever. Most busy shops are that way because they are direct repairers for ins co's. This means, we'll "steer" work your way, you give us a discounted hourly rate so we get to keep more of the consumer's money in our(ins co) pocket.

As far as restoration, there are many shops that can do an incredible job with your car. They don't have "x-ray" vision though. It is very difficult to "give a price" to repair/restore an old car. If you want a guarantee for rust, then all the rust needs to be cut out. If you are looking for a cheap driver quality job, you are more than welcome to do your own prep and disassembly and bring it to an Earl Shieb or Maaco. They will paint your car! Cheap. Generic level products with low UV screeners. I could go on and on, but as others have stated, reality is these cars just aren't worth the money put into them. We need to remember before purchasing a car, the reason we are doing it. If it is for investment, try investing in something else. If it's for learning to do something ourselves, good reason. If it's for the love of cars and the hobby, we put in what we can afford financially emotionally and also time we can afford. I believe most enthusiasts on this site do it for the passion of the hobby. They get "lured in" by all these reality car shows now where money is no object and sponsers pay for parts and labor. After watching these shows, we want what they just did....not realistic!

Anyway, sorry to hijack, but I don't claim to know how to design computer software, be a doctor or plumber. So I couldn't realistically pass judgement on what they say they need to get paid to do their jobs....

allyolds68

Time is money Allen. It's cheaper for a body shop to replace the whole panel than it is to replace the bad sections. One of the reasons it took me so many hours to do the metal work was I only replaced what was bad. I didn't replace entire panels. That's because I had a lot more time than I had money. Not too many shops are going to cut around a wheel opening in a fender and weld in a panel by doing mig'd spots every inch, going back, filling in half way between those inch spots, over and over again until it's a solid steel panel with little warpage. Body shops cut out the panel just below the patch panel joint and use adhesive to glue the new panel.

Napoleon Solo

Owning a media blasting company I am always at the front end of both high and low dollar restorations - and piecework for that matter. The incredibly high cost (In my opinion) of body and paintwork I hear about from multiple customers has basically convinced me to buy a mig welder and learn how to do it myself. Of course doing what I do for a living has two advantages - 1- I save almost 2 grand off the top by stripping the car myself and - 2 - I have a great working relationship and friends in the hot rod building / resto industry some of which I am able to trade off work with. Most people don't have that advantage and I am totally on side with them not wanting to hand over their keys to a 'stranger' and have your car disappear into their shop for months on end.
I am a bit of a control freak that way - I need to know what is going on virtually day to day which of course is unreasonable. Quoting one of my customers on the same subject " I don't need to pay someone to do a crappy job - I could do that myself!"
One thing I do hear a lot from the bodyshops that I work with is that they make very little on classic car work. In our minds we think they'd be enthusiastic about working on your W30 ragtop but the truth of the matter is they'd rather see 10 crappy toyota insurance claims because that's where the cake is. A few shop owners are car guys like us and enjoy the work and these are the guys I'd seek out. In my opinion if a bodyshop manager opens the conversation spouting minimum charges and dollar figures, smile and back away slowly - he's actually looking over your shoulder at the gawdawful Lexus SUV behind you....

coppercutlass

I work for a geico express repair facility shop. They want us to repair vs replace as much as we can. We also do work for farmers , statefarm and they want us to do and they will tell us to use junkyard parts , cheap aftermarket parts etc. etc. Imo a reason restorations are so much more is the shop sit's with the car more taking up space and restoration shops arent busy like a production body shop where a high volume collision shop can bring in 100k plus a month vs a restoration shop with ten cars in a few months to bring in the same amount . A restoration shop may have 6 cars done in 6 months where as collision shop like where i work will pump out between 300 and 400 cars .

gearheads78

Very good write up on what it takes to do it right.

TK-65

This car was painted last summer, for 3,500. Guy had it for a year but he stuck to his original quote. Given, there was not a ounce of body repair. But the guy stripped it, primed, blocked and shot it for under 4 grand, and that included the paint and supplies. When I get my club coupe ready its going to his shop. (The vette is my old mans)

coppercutlass

tk-65 that sounds about right for a guy doing side work at home . I help an ex co worker and olds racer with side jobs and i have been helping him lately . One of his next projects is a complete paintjob on a 2011 camaro to replecate the bumble bee camaro. He is charging the guy aroun the 3.5k to 4k range.

sammy

Interesting stuff,and I agree with most ,but a price is a price and a quote is a quote in my books.I am self-employed and if I had this way of securing customers I would be finished long ago!
I started collecting cars to save them along time ago,- and it has changed!
How about finding some middle ground-you are a pro,state your price and stick to it-not that difficult if the expectations are clear from the start!

Ted

MDchanic

I agree with you, Ted.

I think the difference here is in the "hostage effect."
They've got your car in their garage, and "anything" could happen to it while they've got it, if they're not "careful" enough, if you catch my meaning.
This fact remains an unspoken element in all negotiations once you've given them your car, and unless you're Tony Soprano or Buford Pusser, it's going to have an effect on you.

- Eric

oldcutlass

I can see a show car full blown body and frame restoration going for what the OP was quoted and have seen even higher than that. I can also see a nice quality paint job depending on repairs and type of paint for a reasonable price of $5-7k.

Look we all know that car restoration is not for faint of heart or pocketbook. We also all know that skills are acquired do to lack of finances also.

My car was done by a friend for an extremely, I mean extremely low price. I removed all the chrome and trim, he performed some minor rust repair around the rear window, removed a few hail dings, and sanded, primed, and painted the body. This was a color change (from the 1st pic) so it included door jambs and trunk weatherstrip rail. I cut some corners and painted the underside of trunk lid, underside of hood, and the front filler panel flat and semigloss black where I felt it appropriate. I opted to not repaint the roof and left it Pearl White. I did not replace any chrome or emblems. My son and I washed and cleaned all the emblems up and I hand painted or rattle can sprayed all of them. I replaced 2 trim clips and bought new repo rubber bumper fillers. I reinstalled everything else with the original hardware.

Were there some minor imperfections, you bet. Am I pleased with the end result, absolutely! I drive this car everyday, and enjoy it.

Allan R

No, I don't think that was implied. What I was trying to point out was that Ins co's seem to prefer dealing with straight across replacements. I get that. I also know they have internal policies about what they will cover, to what extent, with what type of parts, depending on the type of policy. Am I an 'expert' on Insurance? Never claimed to be. But I read my policies and ask for clarification when I don't understand things. I don't have to be in the Ins business to know there's + and - . That's part of every industry.

Agreed. And I also acknowledged the 'caveat' they attach to hidden damage and rust. Not fresh of the turnip truck ok?

Also agreed. That's why I try to do all the work I can myself.

But you apparently have no problem passing judgement my opinion. Just so you know, I'm not offended that you have your own opinion of my opinion; that's how it goes. I was just giving first hand impressions and frustrations of issues I have in fact dealt with and extending them to Ted for comparison.


Never said it wasn't. I also get that shop space is money too; especially when it's tied up with one car and (multiple employees?) for longer than an insurance quick job. I know there's a method to the madness. I don't run a repair shop but if I did I would try to maximize my profits using industry standards too - including P&M costs, flat rates etc. I get all that.

In General
My comment to Ted was simply based on the outright assertion from the shop that they wouldn't touch the job unless both rear quarters were replaced. As ent72olds says, shops don't have x-ray eyes and I get that too. However, Ted's opinion (as the owner and bill payer) was it didn't look necessary and I think he was questioning the shops process as part of his thread question. I further agree that small patchwork pieces are time consuming, and sometimes a full quarter repair does a better job with rust removal. But I still stand by the principle that a shop that WANTS the business will give at least a ballpark quote, not a wide open "we'll start at 5K and see what goes from there".

Shops today, whether mechanical or body have sophisticated methods of determining where their break even and profit margins are, and how many qualified staff they need to meet their goals. They also know the value of every piece of equipment and floor space, plus overhead costs associated with daily operation. That said, I would never leave my car at a shop that offers an 'open ended price' option. I'm also not so naive that I wouldn't understand the need to pony up for reasonable extra $$ if the shop called me down and showed me hidden problems that would affect the bottom line. But then I'd also have more confidence in their process and be able to decide whether going forward was the best option. Some of you obviously think I have no clue, but you'd be wrong.

My car is worth what it is to me. It's not an investment; it's a hobby and sickness. It is only worth whatever money a buyer is willing to pay. Will I make money on it? You gotta be kidding me if you said yes.

Napoleon Solo

Yeah Eric,

That's what I was hinting at - the hostage effect. I also strongly agree with a quote is a quote is a quote. Unless there is some serious problem that was hidden ( if it was THAT serious a qualified estimator would find it anyway) stick to it because news about a shop screwing someone travels far and fast.
I think $3-4k is about right for "buddywork and paint". Thats about what it would have cost me without trading off work.