Hawghead

Well it turns out I was wrong about the floor pans in my 69' Cutlass. Appears that both front halves are rusted out . It appears that it somehow managed to rust from the inside out, as looking under the car the under coating is all intact. I didn't find the rust until I pulled back the carpeting to remove some of the PO's crappy wiring. Odd thing is the rear pans look pretty good.

Anyway I'm going to have to replace at least the front floor pans on both sides. Talking with my next door neighbor (a body and fender guy) he mentioned gluing them in. Doing some research on the internet it seems there are epoxys that you can use vice welding. Anyone have any experience with these, what are the pros and cons. In my research, opinions seem about split down the middle.

Thanks,
Scott

Eric Anderson

Glue works good but it's expensive. It also is an epoxy and you need a dual tube gun to use it, which are also expensive. The pro is the seam will be sealed tight.

Gary's 2 442-S

I have never used glue for a floor pan so from my experience it would have to be welded. I prefer to butt weld metal.

Professur

Strength is about equal on properly prepared joints. Butt welds give you a little more flexibility about where those joints happen. Much will depend on how much original floor is left and how your replacement pans are flanged. Floors rotting from the inside out are frequently caused by rust in the cowl/firewall letting water in. Look for traces there.

m371961

Was the 69 a full frame car or uni-body? I like epoxy for body panels, but I think I would prefer welding the floor. Eastwood has epoxy in a tube with an adaptor that allows using a standard caulk gun. Works ok.

Hawghead

I found a missing floor pan plug. I'm thinking water came up from there and got into the carpet backing and capillary action spread it over the whole front floor pan and over time just ate away the floor. But I still need to pull out all the carpet to be sure and access the total damage.

M371961:
The '69 Cutlass has a full frame. Wouldn't even think about adhesives in a unibody.

Currently leaning towards the structural epoxy method, seeing as I don't own a welder and it's been many years since did any welding anyway.

Thanks,
Scott

m371961

I would then flange it and glue it, pull it together with short rivets, use enough glue to completely seal the joint. I'm sure others will dissagree, but adhesives have come a long way.

jag1886

Wish you guys would fill out your profile so we know where you live. Rusted out floors are caused a lot of times by a lot of wet or snowy feet getting in and out of the car, you might also make certain that the windshield isn't leaking somewhere.
As far as glue or weld, I've never heard of gluing them in I think personally I would want them welded just for sake of safety.

Allan R

All the car manufacturing uses welds for these panels. Gotta be for a reason. Just a curiosity, how well does the glue hold up to cold temps? Wouldn't it get brittle and subject to failure?

ELY442

Well from what i've been told, these new cars nowadays are being built with metal and plastic so in order for them to be joined together they use this fusion epoxy. I dont think they would get brittle or subject to failure because you would've hear the recalls by now. You can buy these epoxy that has the a 2 part silicone tube that you connect a mixing nozzle and apply it like you're chalking your house. I know this guy who used it on his Coronet when he install his quarter panel. Sounds weird huh? But its true. He even showed me where he applied the epoxy. Its still on.

Eric Anderson

Welding is probably the cheapest method. I have never seen it fail due to cold temps. I use the two part adhesives extensively at work( not auto body but same principle) and the bond they give matches welding pretty good. If you join panels wrong you are pretty hard pressed to get them apart. I have joined body panels with it and it's pretty easy, I actually used it to relaminate my OAI hood. As for the floor pan I welded, but I have a welder and that stuff is pricey. I wouldn't worry about glueing in a floor pan however.

Hawghead

Sorry, thought I had? Anyway I live in S.W. Washington State just across the border from Portland, Or. As far as the windshield leaking is concerned, my plan was always to have both the front and rear resealed. This will be a fair weather car only, not a daily driver.

I would imagine the main reason is that most cars are of unibody construction these days and my original floor is only spot welded. I would think that if it were a highly stressed component it would have been, at the least, seam welded. Temps where I live are pretty mild, it's rare to even get snow in the winter, a lot of rain however.

My biggest obstacle is I don't own a welder and I haven't done any welding for a long time (wasn't that good anyway). This seems like a viable and comparable substitute for welding.

Thanks,
Scott

coppercutlass

I would weld it no questions asked. I use adhesives partially when replacing quarter panels on modern cars. Even then I still plug weld the corners and certain areas where there is stress loads . I would not hesitate to use the panel bond on patch panels and small stuff but for the floors I would do it like the factory or close to it by punching holes along the perimeter and along the braces and just plug weld the whole panel in and seam seal your seams. Now if you are sectioning in a floor pan then you will have to one of two things. Flange lap and weld or butt weld it all in. I personally like doing the stepped flange. What I do is flange the area that's on the body that's going to hold the new panel after its been cut out ., I trim and fit my panel so that it sits on top of the lip created by the flanging tool then I use a hole punch to put holes in the panel that's going to sit in the flanged area., once I get it all ready I do plug welds every 1.5 inches with a 3/4 in. stich weld in between the plugs along the edges sitting in the stepped flange if that makes sense. once I get it all done I clean it up and seam seal it from up top and underneath. To me butt welding on a area that it not seen is overkill. If it was a nut and bolt resto then yes by all means but weld it and make it absolutely perfect. I know your neighbor is a body and fender guy but if he is thinking about using glue for a floor pan with no welding at all that is questionable. Not trying to be rude but glue has its limits. here is a link . It shows where only glue can be used and where it can be used in conjunction with welding.


http://3mcollision.com/3m-panel-bond...ive-08116.html


Notice how this rear body panel is not structural but attached to the frame rails much like a floor pan where its attached to braces and it was still welded.




I hope this helps.

oldstata

The glue has been proven to be stronger then a weld. A lot of new cars there held togeather with glue. I was going to glue in my trunk pan decided to weld but I did glue in my quarter patches with spot welds

One good thing about the glue is it has something In it to help with rust issues, were a weld is more likely to start rusting if it's not primed or carbon cleaned off


Well said copper. This is how most of my restoration was fine and I am no body guy but had help from one.

Also one nice thing about the glue and this is why I choose to glue is with a lot of heat you can seperate and replace pretty easy and I m hoping that one day they will make quarter patches for the 64/65 a body

Hawghead

Well the good news is, based on the carpet I could pull up without unbolting the seats, is that the damage appears to be limited to just the front floor pans. Additionally the toe board and firewall appear undamaged. Also it looks like nothing was coming from the windshield or the firewall. The rear pans are almost pristine, it's clear the damage to the front pans was caused by some stupid $@#*^&%)*(&%$%$#@$!$%#$^&%*& leaving the front pan drain plugs out. Water got up there into the carpet padding and just rusted the pans out. That's why it looks like the pans rusted from inside out.

So while still mulling over the glue verses welding issue, who do I get the pans from? Seems to be a lot of sources all around the same price, any recommendations? Also it seems you can buy any part of a floor pan or combination of left, right, front and rear except a one piece left and right front floor pan. I wonder why?

Thanks,
Scott

Professur

Just food for thought ... the windshield in all cars built since the 70's have been considered 'structural' with respect to roll over protection .. and they're all glued in.

Allan R

Yes, and the structure that's provided is lost when the glass cracks or breaks. In a roll over I haven't seen too many 'structural' windows survive. The windows are held in place with a butyl material that provides for some degree of flex; it's not a glue per se.

Boldsmobile

If it were designed for glue, with the proper overlap and flanges that we be the way to go over welding.

But your panels weren't designed for that. How would you make it fit good and look good?

Bernhard

I would weld them tig or mig!
The way I look at it is the car was not built in that fashion.
I see no advantage in gluing them into place.
If you do it right no one would ever know they were replaced, I would go with rust free original floor pans if you can find a set or a quality aftermarket floor pan.
I like to copy the original floor plan design/ but weld, plug weld, were the factory spot welded I plug welded were the metal is one solid piece I but weld.
I like to treat it as if the panel is on the top side of the car, you will have to work with the metal with a hammer and dolly and control the heat like any panel that you weld in place.
One bodyman even made a punch that made it look like it was spot welded after the plug welds were lightly touched up with a disc he would punch the spot weld mark back into place. I never went that far but think it was very cool tool he made and it looked very original after primer and paint.

brddg

These cars are full framed and the floor pans are not considered structural. Even if they were it would be an ideal panel to "bond" into place. First trim your replacement panel so it has at least a 3/4" lap around the perimiter, have your clamps ready or another method of holding the panel in place. When you are ready to use the adhesive use a spreader to cover all of the bare metal areas that you prepped with the 80 grit disc. I would then lay another bead of adhesive in the middle of the joint and place the new panel in place and clamp. The amount of time you will now save instead of welding is just the start, no weld dressing, no feathering for paint, no seam sealer needed (unless you do it for strictly cosmetic reasons) and these lapped joints are at least as equal to welding in strength. And no rust worries at the joint when the adhesive is cured. Cold temperature has no affect on the adhesive but if you ever want to remove the panel just use a hand held torch or inductive heater to break the bond and remove the panel. And being as it's a floor pan no worries about how the inside looks under the carpet (unless that's just the kind of thing you worry about) but I would sand/prime the bottom and paint or undercoat for the weather. Now, while the adhesive is pricey how much money would you spend on welding wire, gas, grinding wheels and discs, electricity for your air compressor, d/a discs, etch prime, primer, paint, and all your time invested?

oldstata

All good points. Not sure on the cost for the gun to apply the glue. I know it took 1 tube for both quarters and a few patches that I put in the window channel

Glue cost me 60 bucks well the fusor bond. I know I got it at cost

I wonder tho if he had it all prepped up what would a shop charge to simply glue it in and clamp it ? Or if his friend could help him out as I remember him saying he was a body guy. It shouldn't take a lot of it any how.
I would run seam sealer on the underside tho but that's just me

coppercutlass

A small spool of wire will run 15 bucks and will go well over a whole project. A tank of argon mix runs 35 for a fill 80 for a new tank . A cheap welder which will only weld 1\8 th I short cycles under 200. Appx figures . Now the beauty is that welder will always come in handy. You will need probably 2 tubes of the panel bond that's going to run around 80 then the gun that's 50 . So it might be cheaper but in the long run if you got a project car having a welder will be nice. Flux core wire will also work real nice . So a cheap welder and some flux wire will work. I bough a clark 25en I think for 150 and I have hung quarters and welded in floor pans and many things with it. The glue is good but I feel welding is still the way to go on these old cars.

oldstata

Do you have any pics of the damage area ? I guess I am thinking it's just a few small rust holes but a small area maybe like 10"x 10"
Or maybe it's the whole floor up to fire wall back to the center brace ?
I guess depending on actual damage might determine what option might be better
I feel both have there pro and cons

68conv455

Future buyers would consider welded in replacements as a reasonable repair. I don't think a glued repair would be considered Ok.

RROLDSX

I think a lot of the exceptions here are due to it not being right or whether or not you will just be gluing a new panel over the existing rusted one. If you are not concerned with the "correctness" of the job or what the future owner cares about it and the rust is removed, I see no reason (IMO) why the glue would not work. It may end up being way more expensive than you think though. Peterbuilt glues their truck cabs together, Jaguar, Aston Martin and I'm sure many other manufacturers now use glue for structural body parts.The railways use epoxies under concrete bridge supports and to fill old spike holes in wooden ties. The stuff is like steel but you can't weld on it (something to keep in mind if you plan on welding in buckets seat brackets).

Hawghead

While researching I came across an article in Mopar Muscle where they used adhesive to repair the floor in a 66' Dart GT (a unibody car) http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t...n_replacement/ and they used the Eastwood kit. http://www.eastwood.com/ew-no-weld-p...epair-kit.html is includes the adhesive and a number of tools, and only requires a common caulking gun. As far as future buyers go, I don't plan on ever selling the car, however if I did it would be a "here's my price take it or leave it, if you don't like the floor repair go away".

Thanks,
Scott

Bernhard

When I was young we ran beaters as our day to day cars, while all the money and time went into our street strip cars.
Some had holes in the floor board, cut sheet metal, pop rivet into place, seal under side with brush on undercoat, top side with sealer. paint with rust paint,Replace carpet. It worked fine for $100 to $300 dollar car that will not be resold but crushed.
The cars I did this to were full frame or sub frame cars, even in these cars the floor dose effect crash performance but nothing like a uni-body car.

The point I'm trying to make what type of car is this beater or Keeper?
New tech is great as long as it is used to enhance quality not to replace skills/I can't weld so I will glue my car together.
There is a lot of work involved in welding floor pans in before you make your first tack cleaning,cutting, grinding, fitting,sanding,final cleaning, clamping/bracing/supportig this is all part of the skill set required, just like paint prep makes a big difference in results,so does weld prep.

Hawghead

Well it's definitely not going to be a beater. A friend of mine from work gave me a line on a guy that may be able to do the job for a very reasonable price. As far as crash protection goes, I kinda throw that out the window when driving these older cars, hell the steering column going through your chest is probably going to kill you faster than any other thing. Not to mention no airbags, shoulder harnesses etc.

Looks like I'm just going to bite the bullet and have them done professionally. I just hate the thought of farming something out if there is a reasonable possibility that I can do it myself. (except body work, I hate/suck at body work and besides I don't have a artistic bone in my body).

Scott

bespokemotoring

Buy a $100 wire feed welder and a $40 auto shielding welding helmet from Harbor Freight and your in business...

rustyroger

Passenger aircraft are largely glued together nowadays, as has been pointed out so are some big trucks and high performance cars.
Given this I think glue can be a perfectly good repair material, but probably needs a properly trained person to do the job. You wouldn't give an important welding job to an untrained person, or get a beginner mechanic to overhaul an automatic transmission would you?. Unless they were being closely supervised as part of training of course.


Technology has changed since the first cars were built, no tig or mig welds holding a curved dash Olds or Ford model T together, and now it seems welding might be going the way of points ignition and carburettors.
But like any new technology it will take a while for skilled operators to become commonplace. Any modern mechanic will be conversant with fuel injection and ecu modules, lack of skilled help didn't further the cause of the injected cars of the '50s, gluing as a process is probably at a similar stage right now.


To address the OP; If you know someone with the skills and knowledge to advise you or show you how to do the job, then go ahead and glue your floorpans. If you are good with a welder then you can do a fine repair job by welding.
I mean no offense when I say if you don't have the skills required for either method get someone who does to do the job, whichever method you decide upon.


Roger.

nsnarsk65cutlass

X2 it wasn't built that way.

bespokemotoring

Glue is ok, it will get the job done. Welding is best. Get the welder anyway..... Guys making sparks is cool... chicks dig that stuff..

hookem horns

No specific plans in my immediate future but this discussion caught my eye. How do you clamp a panel for glue installation? I assume you have to do the entire perimeter at once and somehow hold in place for curing. Don't think you can partially tack it in like when welding.

Excuse my ignorance since my bodywork experience is limited banging a few dents and filling with bondo in my youth. May someday have address some issues hiding under the paint on my car.

oldstata

I used sheet metal screws in my quarters in sections then I used the holes like a plug weld I didn't use glue around where the screws were

Hawghead

From the research I've done, the existing floor pan is cut out a little smaller than the replacement floor pan. Then the edge of the existing floor pan is flanged (producing a slight step down and ledge that the new pan can rest on at the same level with the rest of the floor pan, Eastwood sells a hand tool to flange the edge). The new pan is put in place and holes are drilled through the perimeter of the new pan and the flange's ledge. The new pan is removed and the adhesive is applied. The pan is put back in place and flush rivets are used to pull the two pieces tightly together. I understand some people use additional seam sealer over the seam and others say the glue provide the sealing.

My current plan is just to have the floor pans replaced when it goes in for body work. However talking to one of the guys at work that lives fairly close to me, I found that he has a wire welder and knows how to use it. I'm now thinking that I just might put the pans in with his help. I figure at the least we could get them fitted and tacked into place and have the finish welding done by the body shop.

Scott

oldstata

EA0F6A06-3611-4BEE-9DFE-32EE8CC2B81B.jpg

0B617D25-E9AC-43E8-AC98-A919C108BB01.jpg

Here is a pic if my quarter glued in and us touching up on metal work before filling

On the seam sealer I would apply on the bottom if you glue or weld in just my opinion but on top I wouldn't worry about it unless you just wanted a clean look

Hawghead

Thanks to everyone for the input and information. I'm still going back and forth on this. I know a lot of people think that welding is the "only right" way to do it and they may be right. However technology has changed and continues to change how and what we do with cars even the older ones we enjoy. I think most people would be very surprised at how many things are held together by adhesives now days, and when I say things I mean large heavy duty structural things.

I'm still going back and forth on this but if technology can provide a way that I can do the repairs with the skill sets I have (haven't welded in decades and I never was what I would call a welder anyway), I see no good reason not to take advantage of it. As far as future buyers are concerned, I have no intention of ever selling the car, but if I did, I wouldn't hesitate to disclose how the floor pans were repaired, and if the person buying the car didn't like it, they could take a flying leap at the moon, I wouldn't reduce the price one penny because of it.

I have friends that could help, but they are all railroaders (at least the ones close enough to help) and unlike in most jobs, time off is a precious commodity in that your never 100% sure how much of it your going to have or when your going to get it. As a result I hate to ask them to take away from their free time, especially as none of them are car guys.

On the other hand a decent MIG welder setup is not that expensive (at least one that can do a good job on heavy gauge sheet metal). I've wanted one for awhile now and maybe this is an good excuse to buy one, get some scrap pieces and start practicing. Again I'm still going back and forth on this, but I've never been afraid of new things, hell I might even put electronic fuel injection on the car.

Thanks all,
Scott

bodyman5001

Get the welder. If you must glue them, rivet bond them. The metal must be clean, CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. Overlap your patch panels by and inch or so and drill clean holes every inch or so and rivet them while the adhesive is fresh. Make sure every inch of bare metal to be bonded is completely covered with adhesive on both contact faces and then run another bead on one panel before joining them.

I would probably seal the seam on the outside just for peace of mind. Just in case it happened to crack, let's remember that speed bumps often damage floors. Something that stays flexible would be best.

One important thing about adhesives you must know to watch for is the guns and cartridge itself. I've seen people pull the trigger so hard that material backed out into the tube as they were dispensing it. The guy that did this was doing a rear tub on a Corvette. It was a disaster.

So, just make sure that equal parts are being mixed and to sacrifice a 4-5 inch bead before you use it. So that you get the correct mix from the beginning.

Hawghead

Bodyman,

Thanks for the input, I'm still on the fence but I'd sure like an excuse to buy a MIG welder . If I end up gluing them I'll be using the Eastwood kit http://www.eastwood.com/ew-no-weld-p...epair-kit.html

It's gonna be awhile as the first step is to get the body off the frame and get the frame and running gear completely restored. Then I'd like to get the engine built and install it along with the transmission before I roll the frame back under the body. When I get to starting on the body. I'd like to have all the mechanical work done so as to risk messing up any body work.

Thanks,
Scott