I've got a 71 Cutlass Supreme Convertible with an electric top. I think something is binding a little when it is going up and down. I was hoping to disconnect the hydraulic system somehow and move the top manually.

Is there any way to do this without opening up the hydraulic system and introducing air to it? I am guessing there isn't, but I wanted to check before I go opening it up...

 

You should be able to disconnect the pistons from the top mechanism, but the top will be heavy to move.

- Eric

 

As mentioned, just disconnect the the top of the lift cylinder rods from the conv top assembly. Pay attention to the disassembly so you see how the bushings and any washers are installed. And if you drop them you may have to remove the rear seat and rear interior panels to get them. Once you dosconnect the cylinders, I would lower the cylinder rods using the pump to get them in the full down position. From there you can operate the top manually. I've done this quite a bit lately on a 69 442 and the top isn't hard to operate manually. Just a little tough to get it started upward when it is fully folded down. You'll need to stand inside the car and grab the center of the top to give it a good pull. Once it moves upward, it will move the rest of the way fairly easily.

 

Ok, thanks guys. I have no idea why I didn't come across that idea. I am only going to have them disconnected for a little while as I try to figure out where the odd noise is coming from. Thanks for the tips, though - I'll make sure to pay close attention to the assembly parts. :-)

 

Ok, so disconnecting the hydraulic piston rods and running them into their bores made it easy to find the problem with my top.

It isn't binding, but there is a "pivot" of some sort missing on the driver's side. The body manual seems to point it out as the "top control link". It is a narrow solid metal arm that attaches to the top frame on top and to the hinge on the bottom. I can't really get a good picture, but here's a not-very-decent one that I found:

http://www.442.com/tech/topless/Fig12-27.jpg

So anyway, where it connects to the hinge mounted in the body of the car, there's an oblong hole for an adjustment bolt. On the passenger's side of my car, there's a thick "washer" that apparently allows the top control link to pivot.

On the driver's side, the thick pivot is missing. Instead, there is a long bolt with a double nut and a fender washer on it. The double nut prevents it from getting tighter - but the whole top control link can slide around throughout the entire range of the oblong hole. That makes it appear to bind and then suddenly jump as it is going up and down.

Anyway, is it possible to find a replacement part for this somewhere? Is there some alternative? Maybe something that can be made to solve the problem??

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

Here are a few photos of how that bolt was assembled originally. The bolt is a carriage style bolt and slides in the slot. The thick washer has grooves on it to lock it into the grooves on the bracket. This point on the top should not slide up and down when the top is operated. Rather, it is used to adjust the position of the side rail over the door glass. Since yours is moving around, I would suspect that when your top is up that it sags a little over the side windows. Moving the adjustment downward will raise the side rail over the side glass and moving the adjustment upward will lower the side rail. The adjustment needs to be made with the top partially up and is a little tricky at first. But before you get into any of that, you'll need to get the correct pieces. I would try a company like Convertible Service in San Gabriel, CA (800-333-1140) as they advertise the do top repairs. Maybe they will have that bolt and thick grooved washer. Also, there is a post today where someone is selling 68 Cutlass conv parts and the conv top is listed. Maybe he would sell you that bolt/washer if he can't sell the entire top assembly.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Brian

 

Brian - Thanks so much for the images. That is exactly the bolt / bushing / washer that I am looking for.

Can you or anyone tell me... would this be the right part:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-72-CHEV...-/350563851061

If you look at the two bolts on the far left in the pic, I think that might be what I am looking for, just judging by the ridges and apparent size.

Thanks!

 

The bolts on the left appear to be made to work in place where your bolt is missing. But they are not the same shape as the originals and therefore I would worry if the fit was correct or not. Given what I have read recently on this site about that seller, I would be concerned if it didn't work that you could get stuck for $60. You might first try posting something on the site to see if anyone can help you with this bolt and washer and get original GM stuff and if that fails, give thought to the part you found. I did call Conv Service and they do not have anything available.

 

Don't want to highjack too much, but can anyone provide more insight on actually making this adjustment? Tried last weekend and did not have much luck raising a slightly sagging rail on the passenger side.

 

No worries, I just needed a good picture of what I was thinking might be the right part. I am going to try to get GM originals, but if not, I hope someone reliable will carry a decent repro.

Dane:
I don't have experience in getting the adjustment correct - though if I can find an appropriate part, I plan to get some experience in adjusting it.

Anyhow, at the risk of repeating a link that you've already seen, here's the official original instructions:
http://www.442.com/tech/topless/topl...0TOP%20CONTROL

Lemme know if you figure it out or if you have any good hints on it.

 

Dane, I will first say I am not expert at conv top adjustments but I have learned how to make some adjustments on the 69 442 I'm woking on. If that side rail over the side glass looks to be too low, meaning the weatherstripping that is attached to the side rail is sitting down too low on the glass, you will need to move the adjusting bolt being discussed downwward. Make sure that is the issue rather than the top fabric being an issue because it wasn't installed correctly and looks odd. In the picture I previously posted where is shows the meaurement I took before taking things apart (2 3/8" and yours may be different which is OK), you'll need to make that measurement bigger. I would try moving the bolt down by another 1/8" or 1/4" and see how that helps. Keep in mind that the top must be about 1/2 way down and that you will need to loosen the nut enough so the washer can be pulled back off of the bracket. Both the bracket and washer have the metal grooves on them so they need to disengage in order to move. I would try to mark where everything is first before doing anything so you know where you started. When you are trying to move the bolt, you will need to keep one hand on the side rail and try to lift it a little higher so that bolt and linkage will move downward. It may help to have another person helping while you loosen/tighten that bolt.
The other thing to check is that the bushings in your folding top are in good shape. If the bushings are worn out and things are sloppy, you'll have a tough time getting any adjustment to work.
Brian

 

Instructions in the chassis manual are vague - just adjust up or down. I loosened the adjusting bolt but could not get it to move down. Thanks for the more detailed advice on the top being about halfway down and I need to enlist a helper to get it held in position (a certain 14 yr old who says he want to drive it someday comes to mind). Checking the bushings is a good idea also, did not think of that.

 

Just remember that the washer is grooved so you really need to loosen the nut so the washer can move away from the bracket. Once the washer is disengaged, the bolt will move very freely which is why a marking of where you started is important. Very easy to have it move a bunch when you are only trying to move a little at a time.

Always good to involve the younger ones so they not only learn something but hopefully gain an appreciation for these cars and others.

 

I ordered a reproduction bushing and bolt kit. Unfortunately, it seems to be the wrong size.

The new bushing has a "top hat" profile to it and think the top of the hat is supposed to go through the top control link arm. The top hat has an approximate diameter of 0.6645", but measuring the hole in the arm, it is only 0.500".

Am I assembling this wrong somehow or misunderstanding how this is supposed to be setup? The grooves on the bushing are correct and seem to fit the arm, but the diameter of the top part just seems too big.

The plastic bushings that came with the kit just happen to be 1/2 inch and fit exactly, but I don't think that's where they belong...

 

Something is not correct with that set up. On the 69 I'm working on, the bolt is a carriage bolt which means it has a square on it just under the rounded bolt head. The bolt first passes through the big bracket so the bolt head is facing the side of the car. The square on that bolt fits into the slot of the bracket and allows the bolt to slide up and down inside the bracket slot. The grooved washer is fairly thick so if yours is not as thick, just make up the difference with washers. The bolt passes through the smaller arm and a washer/nut goes on the end. There is no plastic or brass bushing used here. You might be OK if the washer with the grooves on it will work. If so, you can likely run down to the home improvement store and get a carriage bolt in the correct size and length you need. Measure the hole in the small arm to see what you need. I'm thinking it's a 3/8 bolt that will go in that hole and it needs to not have a lot of play. I hope this makes sense.

 

I don't think I made it clear enough. I added some more pics. The hardware I got has a 3/8 carriage bolt with a squared off body that passes through the grooved bushing. The problem is that the grooved bushing (I think) is supposed to fit through the arm, right? It does not fit through because the arm hole is 1/2 inch and the grooved bushing's "narrow part" is .6645 inch in diameter.

Here's the bushing from the back and side with the old one next to it:




Here is my helper holding the new bushing against a piece of steel with a 1/2" hole in it. Sorry, the quality's not great, but besides his dirty fingernails, you can see it won't fit through...



I guess I could grind off the "narrow part" of the grooved bushing, but otherwise, I have no clue what that narrow part is there for...

Any ideas???

 

It appears the 71 set-up differs slightly from the 69. And it also looks like the design is such that the small arm needs to float and not be pinched so it can move freely. I don't remember on the 69 models how this arm is allowed to stay free moving. My suggestion would be to take the new part you show to a machine shop and have them turn down the shoulder of the grooved washer so it will be smaller and will pass through the arm. I would not drill the hole in the arm bigger as it may break. If the arm has a .50" hole, have the bushing turned down to .45 or maybe .48 at the biggest. With that done and all parts in their correct location, place a washer against the end and install the nut. You might want to use a wavy washer or maybe a couple on either side of the arm so it doesn't rattle around on that shoulder. And a little grease too. If you have a problem with finding s shop to turn that part, let me know as there is one near me that will do it.
Brian

 

Heh... wow, so the 69 and 71 setup differs, but apparently OPGI and others don't know that. They all seem to advertise this set for 1968-72 GM A-Body convertibles:
http://www.opgi.com/p/convertible-to...0/CH27790.html

So how is yours setup, though? Does the arm ride directly on some sort of metal or is there a filler / bushing / washer in there somehow?

 

I only say that because of the parts they sent you. But if the parts houses are selling these to fit all 68-72's. then that is not correct. I spoke to a conv top business and they told me that 68 uses a different set up. Unfortunately, I've run into this before and many things seem to get lumped into that 68-72 window which is not always correct.
I don't remember how the one of the 69 I have is put together. It's back in the car and everything is adjusted so I would hate to remove the nut to see if it has a seeve or not. Are these parts still on the other side in your car?

 

Please- Don't pull your car apart if things are working and adjusted!

Yeah, the other side seems to be working properly so I marked the position of the grooved bushing. I haven't pulled it apart yet, but I probably will do so tomorrow. I can take some pics and post them here then. Thanks again for your help and ideas!

 

I finally had some time to take apart the side that was still working and intact on my car. I attached the pictures and made some notes (using my awesome Paint skills sorry about that) to try to make clear the assembly I have on my car.

Is this some other type of assembly? Maybe from a different top design or something? The hole in the control link arm is only .5 inches, so there's no way to make the parts I got from OPGI work without machining them. The second picture is the most interesting one - the grooved washer sits on the square part of the bolt and the round bushing rides on the round part of the bolt. The arm slides over that and a fender washer and a nut hold the whole assembly together.

I could probably find a regular old carriage bolt and get a brass bushing made to replace the missing one. Still, I don't know if that will really work...

Does anyone else have this type of setup on their car?

 

I can't really say if this is identical to the 69 Cutlass or not as I just don't remember. But do one more thing. Give me the height of the section of that metal busing that slides into the arm. I know it must be slightly less than .50 in diameter and I want to know how tall that section is. When I rebuilt the top on the 69 442, I bought a bushing kit for a Delta 88 as that was all that was offered at that time and I was able to use a few of the pieces in that kit. But there are a few left over parts and some look like the bushing you show. With that dimension I can check what I have. If I have it, hopefully the new bolt and grooved washer will give you the rest of the parts. But I think you'll need to grind down the back of the new grooved washer so it is flat. I forget what it looked like and I can't see it when I'm in this screen.

 

Mark,
I was able to get a closer look to the bolt assembly on the 69 without taking it apart and it appears to be of the same set-up that you have. I can see a brass washer next to the grooved washer and I know that is a bushing like the ones I show in the attached photo. I measured the arm thickness and it looks to be around .28" - .29" thick. I found an old bushing that I had that was broken and it had a stud length of .34". So I'm thinking the black bushing you have is probably close to that. I have the 2 busings in the photo and I have the same 2 in steel like yours. My bushings have a .25" stud height which makes them just slightly short and would cause the arm to bind when you tightened down the nut on the bolt. They have a stod OD of .49" and accept a 3/8" bolt. I think if you used 2 of them like I have and ground one down so the stud was just barely sticking up, maybe .08" - .10' and placed them on either side of the arm, it would do the trick. You would just need to make sure you grond the one down so it was flat as you want it to sit square with the other bushing. If was cut on an angle, it could sit at an angle and cause binding. If you know a machine shop, I'm sure they could cut it down so it was square. Let me know if you are interested and we can work something out.
Brian

 

Hey Brian,

Thanks so much for checking around and doing the measuring. I pulled mine apart and measured. I know that the steel bushings I have are right around .49" and a 3/8 bolt fits right through. The arm on the top appears to be around .30-.31", though. But, it doesn't appear to be perfectly uniform and I am measuring using a caliper at a very, very uncomfortable angle. Oddly enough, the existing bushing seems to have a shank of only around 1/4" and the outer washer is actually deformed a bit where it was "pressed into" the arm a bit. It is minor but if you look very closely you can see it.

Anyhow, I'd first be very interesting in any solution that works! But I am still stunned that there appears to be no aftermarket kit that will work for cars like ours... You said you got that bushing setup from a Delta 88 kit - do you know what year? I keep thinking that it just can't be right because (at least some) Chevelles and others from 69-72 must have this setup...

The machine shop I have used in the past may be (possibly) able to handle the machining, but I am still hoping to be pleasantly surprised when I find the right aftermarket kit.

Thanks again,
Mark

 

Actually, the package on mine said "Full Size" and that did not give me all of my bushings. In fact, I had a local machine shop make several bushings for me for the top assembly as I couldn't find them. I completely tore down the folding top and replaced every bushing in there. Those pivot bolt bushings were fine on the 69 so they were re-used, and I think they were the only ones I could re-use.
I think what someone was trying to do with the kit you bought was to incorporate the grooved washer and the bushing as one piece. But it appears they forgot to machine the end down so the rod would fit on it. And it doesn't look like a hardened metal and may not last too long.
I think your best option is my bushings and you modify one to make the set-up work or you have someone make something for you. Let me know if you are interested in the ones I have.
Brian

 

Interesting - so the pack you found was for full size cars, huh? I haven't been able to find anything other than that set of bolts that I ordered from OPGI.

That's this set:
http://www.opgi.com/p/convertible-to...0/CH27790.html

I called Tamraz and they have the same kit. I even got the guy to go measure the bushing size and it was well over .50" (5/8" is what he quoted me).

Finally, I called up Champion Chevelle and asked about this part:
http://www.championchevelle.com/6872...t-p-10256.html

Same situation with all of them - the kit for 68-72 A-Body convertibles uses a single-piece grooved washer and bushing setup sized at .664" (too big). All of them suggested kits like this one:
http://www.opgi.com/p/convertible-to...0/C240957.html
This is a good kit and will (apparently) work. But it is for the UPPER pivot bolt, not the lower one.

I did ask around and found this from a Chevelle site:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/atta...2&d=1338311092

So, clearly, others do have the same setup. This looks exactly like mine (minus a lot of dirt and whatnot):
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/atta...2&d=1338311092

For those reading this far into the future, I sure hope there's a better solution when you are reading this. Whatever I come up with, I'll post my solution.

Brian - yes, I'd be interested in anything that will work. What do you think is the best plan? Should I try to use brass as a replacement? Do you think the ones you have would work?

Thanks!

 

Mark, here is the kit I bought and was able to use some of the bushings in this kit when I rebuilt the 69 top. Still needed more but I could use some of these. I think the kit was cheaper when I bought it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-1975-Ch...sories&vxp=mtr

I have the same bushings that I showed but in steel and I think that may be a better choice given the load on that arm. One way I thought of to grind down one of the bushings is to use a flat piece of steel that is maybe 1/8" thick, drill a 1/2" hole, slide the bushing into the hole and grind the bushing flat to the steel. Should give you a sqaure edge and will be .1875" tall which will give you about .43" overall shoulder for the arm to ride on. You could take a little more off on of the bushings carefully to make it a little less by thinning down the steel plate a little and regrinding the bushing.

If you want the 2 steel ones, you can have them for $5 plus the postage. Let me know.

Brian

 

Yeah, I'd like them. I sent you a PM.

 

PM returned.