dan2286

This is out of a 455. From some drawings I have seen, this crank looks like it could be. Here is a pic,
DSC00506.jpg

kevdog442

Doesn't look like ones I've seen, should have an even smaller hole maybe 1/2" diameter deeper in.

joe_padavano

That may have been machined from an automatic crank. Is there a snap ring groove in the hole for the pilot bearing?

dan2286

No, there is not.

2blu442

I have seen several early cranks drilled out this deep from the factory. These can be used in a standard transmission application by inserting a bushing in this hole. The factory standard transmission crank has a small groove cut into it that a snap ring clips into and holds a roller bearing in place.

In the photos it looks like a checkmark cut on the edge of the crankshaft. The checkmark cut on big block cranks indicates a forged steel crankshaft. The factory made very few forged steel crankshafts for the 455. All the 425's had forged steel crankshafts. Are you sure this is from a 455 rather than a 425? If your not, post the casting numbers on the crank and we'll be able to help you identify it for sure. John

dan2286

I wish this was forged. That is not a check mark cut into the flange, it is a u shaped cut. The casting number is 397363, and is not nodular. This came out of a 72-76 block. It has all factory bearings and pistons, so I am assuming this engine has never seen a machine shop. If it is like you are saying, I am thinking that this crank could have been drilled from the factory.

Run to Rund

If the step is 1.377-1.378" it will hold the pilot bearing. It was used in an automatic car, right? Early cranks through 1969 had the bearing "staked" with center punch peening. Beginning in 1970, a snap ring was used. I see no sign of either retention being used on this crank, but you could use peening and green Loctite just fine.

64Rocket

I say it came from a boat. Almost all 455's in boats had stick flywheels and were drilled for the pilot brg.

Gene

kevdog442

But if they started with the snap ring in 1970 wouldn't it have a groove for one? It's definitely not a factory drilled mt crank from the 60's, they have a further recess. He says its from the mid 70's, and its not been machined, I've never had a crank after 72 but it looks like a regular auto crank to me. One of those Pilot Bearing Adapters sold by Olds dealers would work on it.

Run to Rund

I have a 72 auto crank. It does not have the big stepped area. I suspect that for a while Olds sent out drilled cranks so they would not have to stock both parts. this crank is definitely bored out enough for a stick. Even if the hole is not 1.378", an oilite bronze bushing could be made to fit it.

dan2286

What measurement should 1.378" be? Here is the picture I am going off of. Are you talking about the second hole in? If so, that hole is around that size. I cant get an exact measurement because my dial calipers wont reach that far in.

I did measure to the bottom where the taper starts and that is around 1.530". All of the depth measurements are coming pretty close, but maybe my caliper is off a little.
pilot.jpg

Run to Rund

Look at the 1.377 diameter area in the drawing.

dan2286

I figured that, I was just making sure.

64Rocket

I have never seen a stick crank with a grove for a snap ring. I have 3 455 stick cranks and a 400/425 crank that do not have a snap ring grove. The 400/425 crank has the roller brg pressed in. The 455 cranks are the same way. Either a roller brg or an oil-lite brg would press right in.

Gene

citcapp

I have a forged steel crank for a 455 4-speed car and it does not have a snap ring and the 455 I bought from 2blu442 has a nodular crank drilled for a pilot bearing. Neither crank has a snap ring grove. If the bearing needs to be pressed in then why would a snap ring be required. I built and raced many Chebby small blocks and the bearing was always pressed into the crank. Someone please explain the difference before I assemble my 455 and the 5-speed stick setup.

Thanks

2blu442

Maybe Joe can shed some light on this, it may have been the later vintage cranks that have the snap rings. I have two with them, one a 455 and the other a 350. The 350 was in a 1968 Cutlass when I got it, but it had #6 heads so I know it's not an untouched engine. The 455 crank came out of a Fa block with J heads that was in a 1969 442 when I bought it, so I don't know for sure what it came from the factory in either. Here are some photos of the 455 one. I've read about people using a bushing and not having problems, so Pat I think that would work for you. John

P1010116-1.jpg
P1010118-1.jpg

2blu442

OK, I just went back and read through all the posts in this thread. Run to Rund already said that in 1970 the snap ring was used. So my post is just to share photos of what the snap ring crank looked like. John

citcapp

I am still not completly satisfied with the answers.

If the crank is drilled for a bearing but does not have a snap ring groove is it ok to just press the bearing in. If not what needs to be done instead of the snap ring? I don't want to screw up my steel forged crank

2blu442

Pat, I'm not an expert so you may want to check with Joe or some other guys to verify the answer. Run to Rund talked about the early ones being "staked" which I believe is using a punch on the edge of the crank to make a dimple that holds the edge of the bearing. I had a 1966 400 that I purchased to trade for a 1965 400 for my 442 project, I don't know if I have any photos of the 1966 engine but as I think about it I believe it was staked. Another idea that I've not tried is the aftermarket bearing intended for automatic crank shafts, I believe Supercarsunlimited in Portland Oregon has those. About 20 years ago I had a bushing from another application turned down by a machine shop and I drove it into the crank, that's what I've got in my 1970 442. I would be most comfortable with a factory setup, but since those are hard to find most people will need to explore one of these other options. John

citcapp

My problem with the punch method is what if the the roller bearing goes bad then what do you do for replacement?

64Rocket

Most all pilots are just pressed in. The punch method is common. All you do is use the pilot brg puller and the brg comes right out. The punch method is like useing lock tight. All you do is just a little peen over to hold in, plus it is a press in brg and will hold tight.

Gene

Run to Rund

OK, I hope this post can take care of it. Staking is a term for using a center punch near the edge of the bearing hole in the crank and peening over a bit of metal, upsetting it toward the hole to help hold the bearing in place. Olds specified staking in 1 place. Check the various year Service Manuals for photos and you will also see the snap ring was first referended in the 1970 manual. I have seen both types of stick cranks, all early 400-425s had the staking. So long as the bearing remains lubricated and the bellhousing is centered well, the factory ball bearing works fine. If abrasive dust like from a metallic clutch disk facing gets into it, or excessive time and heat cause the grease to dry out, then the bearing can seize. At that point, it will chew into the tranny input gear "nose" and less often, spin in the crank bore. If the bearing or bushing gets loose, it can't really go anywhere. It has no reason to work loose if it is staked and/or green #609 Loctited, so long as it doesn't seize up. I like the bushings better, although in the ideal world the bearing lasts longer. I don't put that many miles on the car between clutch removals. I am more concerned about the bearing getting dirty and seizing, whereas the oilite bronze bushings won't tend to hurt the input or crank bore, even under extreme abuse. I have seen really bad abuse situations and the little bit of bronze that ended up on the nose was easily poslished off with scotchbrite. Meanwhile, the crank pictured is usable as is.

Some years ago I used a Mopar 440 forged crank out of an automatic car; the factory drilled all of the to .909" and then reamed the stick cranks to about .913 iirc. Well, I just chucked an oilite bushing into a fixture I made from two lug nuts on a threaded rod with the tapered ends to the bushing, turned with a drill, and held a file against the bushing until it came down to about .910". Doing that kept the hole centered, believe it or not. Necessity is the mother of butchery So, if the hole in the pictured crank is too small, turn down a Dorman oilite bushing. If it's too big, make a sleeve or custom bushing. Lots cheaper than the $100 most places charge to bore the crank.

Oldsguy

I just read this complete thread and found it very informative. I just want to comment on the civility and honesty everyone expressed, even with disagreements. This is what makes for a good site. Eventually, if everyone reads a complete thread, they can learn something new. Thanks guys!

citcapp

Thanks guys, I am now clear on the methods for installing the pilot bearing. Not to old to learn things I did not know about

My442

The correct pilot bearing is BCA7109.

It fits the drawing dimensions perfectly.

Run to Rund

And, the Dorman bronze bushing is 690-023.

1968ragtop

I am doing a 4 speed conversion, was just about to install a doorman 690-023 bushing in my crank and the bushing is larger than the hole in the crank. The crank is out of a 76 olds with an auto but is drilled for a 4 speed from the factory, looks just like the pics at the start of this thread. Anyone know why? did they drill them for different size bushings in the later years? I would guess its larger by .010 but probably more than that.

64Rocket

The bushing #907109 may need to put in the freezer for a couple hours and then try and put it in.
If not may have to turn down the bushing to an interference fit.
What is the diameter of the bushing your using ? a pic would help of the crank and the bushing.

Gene

1968ragtop

heres some pics

Run to Rund

Mike the crank hole and the bushing. You want a press of .001" to .003" .

1968ragtop

Ok, so I mike the crank hole and machine the bushing down to between .001-.003" smaller than the hole and this will give me the correct friction fit in the crank?

Old Olds Fan

Not as I understand. Mike the crank hole and make your bearing O.D. .001-.003 Larger and Press it in. Refrigerate it to shrink it, you could also warm the crank and it might push it. If it's smaller than the hole, it's smaller and won't hold. Hope this helps.

507OLDS

That is a stick crank.I have seen the Olds cranks machined two different ways,but still take the same 7109 bearing.I have yet to own one with a groove for the snap ring,but they do exist.You will find a lot of the 73-76 455's had the cranks drilled for the bearing.

1968ragtop

Thanks guys, I tweaked my back so the project is on hold. Hope to be back on it in a week or so. I'll try tap it in 1 more time, otherwise I'll borrow a mike to check the size of hole.

1968ragtop

So I got back on this pilot bearing. Tried to tap it in one more time and no go. I guestimated how much to machine off and took it to a friend who has a lathe. The bushing was 1.380" we machined the bushing down .01" to 1.370. We got lucky on the first try and it tapped in nicely, it took a fairly firm tap with the hammer, but you could feel it was going in and it felt like it is nice and snug in the crank. This is a '76 crank that had an auto behind it, I think the hole was machined slightly smaller from the factory as it was never meant to have a 4 speed. If you have a crank of this vintage you might find the same issue. Thanks for all the help guys!

2blu442

Recently picked up some parts that included an early 400 crankshaft with the bearing staked or peened in. Wanted to post a picture just to add to the information in this old post. John

DSCN1798.jpg

Octania

E400 evidently, as the L shaped notch indicates forged crank.

Thanks so much to all of you who can and did get photos of these details and shared them!

nj_cutlass72

i was searching for a similar question; picked up a what seems to be a period correct 72 455/th400 combo, pulled apart the OD trans and saw this crank opening... so did i get lucky with a pre-drilled factory manual crank in a auto set up?

64Rocket

Yes, you did!
Also a T-400 is not an Over Drive trans.

Gene

nj_cutlass72

thanks Gene, by OD i was referring to the ID tag code for 1972 th400 (cutlass).