455 rebuild agenda
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Registered User
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 35
From: Moscow, Russia
455 rebuild agenda
Hi everyone, i can't make my story short, but i'l try. My 455 is a 396021Fa block. it was rebuilt 20k miles ago. That's what inside:
- .030 overbore pistons (can't tell forged or not)
- Looks like original GM Crank and rods with STD stamped on main and rod bushings. Does STD stand for nominal size crank and rods (original size)?
- oil pump? presume it's standard, have a look at the photos.
- Lunati Cam, cant find this part number on their site, pls help to identify. Hydraulic lifters, comp cams 9.75, 0.80 push rods, pretty roller rockers
- Edelbrok Performer RPM heads
-Edelbrok Torker intake
-Demon 4 barrel , 800 vacuum secondaries
- Low restriction headers,3' exhaust with flow masters and an x-pipe.
- TH400 with 2200 TCI converter , 3,08 rear end and 265/60r15 BFG radials.
This set up produced 399 horses, run 14 sec at the 1/4 mile and was almost a pleasure to cruise. Almost is because the low end torque was not what i was looking for and idle was terrible. When the lifter knock started to increase and a header gasket blew i decided to open the engine. Started from the intake. The camshaft had three significantly flattened/worn out curves and the cam itself was set to the back of the engine for 1/5 of an inch. The compression was uneven from 10 to 12 atm per cyl . Took of the heads to check the valves and seats. They look fine, except for the little flatenings on contact spot with the roller rockers. 5-th and 7-th cylinder mirrors showed deep scratches. Decided to tear out the engine and pull out the crank . I was disappointed to find damage to half of the bearings (both main and rod) and to two pistons from above mentioned cylinders. I'm asking myself a question.Why did the engine last for such short time? I didn't overheat it , ever. breaked in for 2000 miles without hitting the pedal. Maybe i used the wrong lubricant? I used 10w40 semi synthetic all the way. Or the oil pump had lower productivity than the engine required ?
To my view this kind of damage comes because of lubricant starvation . Check the attached photos and let me know your ideas what could have caused this damage. I'll be rebuilding this block and want to exclude any mistakes and choose the correct components. It will be very expensive to ship this engine back to USA for a rebuild, so i'll have to manage it here, in Moscow. Any suggestions and know-hows are welcome. Tomorrow i'll share my ideas on the rebuild and components i have in mind for your expertise. Sorry to take your time,but i'm dummer than my adroid and i had a hard time trying to post pictures here... pls follow the link to view them
https://picasaweb.google.com/100548736957946985518/455
i appreciate your advise.
Bazil
- .030 overbore pistons (can't tell forged or not)
- Looks like original GM Crank and rods with STD stamped on main and rod bushings. Does STD stand for nominal size crank and rods (original size)?
- oil pump? presume it's standard, have a look at the photos.
- Lunati Cam, cant find this part number on their site, pls help to identify. Hydraulic lifters, comp cams 9.75, 0.80 push rods, pretty roller rockers
- Edelbrok Performer RPM heads
-Edelbrok Torker intake
-Demon 4 barrel , 800 vacuum secondaries
- Low restriction headers,3' exhaust with flow masters and an x-pipe.
- TH400 with 2200 TCI converter , 3,08 rear end and 265/60r15 BFG radials.
This set up produced 399 horses, run 14 sec at the 1/4 mile and was almost a pleasure to cruise. Almost is because the low end torque was not what i was looking for and idle was terrible. When the lifter knock started to increase and a header gasket blew i decided to open the engine. Started from the intake. The camshaft had three significantly flattened/worn out curves and the cam itself was set to the back of the engine for 1/5 of an inch. The compression was uneven from 10 to 12 atm per cyl . Took of the heads to check the valves and seats. They look fine, except for the little flatenings on contact spot with the roller rockers. 5-th and 7-th cylinder mirrors showed deep scratches. Decided to tear out the engine and pull out the crank . I was disappointed to find damage to half of the bearings (both main and rod) and to two pistons from above mentioned cylinders. I'm asking myself a question.Why did the engine last for such short time? I didn't overheat it , ever. breaked in for 2000 miles without hitting the pedal. Maybe i used the wrong lubricant? I used 10w40 semi synthetic all the way. Or the oil pump had lower productivity than the engine required ?
To my view this kind of damage comes because of lubricant starvation . Check the attached photos and let me know your ideas what could have caused this damage. I'll be rebuilding this block and want to exclude any mistakes and choose the correct components. It will be very expensive to ship this engine back to USA for a rebuild, so i'll have to manage it here, in Moscow. Any suggestions and know-hows are welcome. Tomorrow i'll share my ideas on the rebuild and components i have in mind for your expertise. Sorry to take your time,but i'm dummer than my adroid and i had a hard time trying to post pictures here... pls follow the link to view them
https://picasaweb.google.com/100548736957946985518/455
i appreciate your advise.
Bazil
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,477
From: Central Fl
Sounds to me like it was put together dirty and without proper clearances. If it was really starving for oil it would have most probably done more damage than that, and sooner.
As far as the power goes, a Performer and probably a smaller cam would have done wonders for low end torque with that gear and converter.
How's the gas over there? Depending on that shoot for 10-10.5:1. Keep the carb, freshen up the heads, use a Performer and the right cam and pistons, and you'll be golden. I can help if you like, plus you'll get some good info here as well.
As far as the power goes, a Performer and probably a smaller cam would have done wonders for low end torque with that gear and converter.
How's the gas over there? Depending on that shoot for 10-10.5:1. Keep the carb, freshen up the heads, use a Performer and the right cam and pistons, and you'll be golden. I can help if you like, plus you'll get some good info here as well.
Last edited by cutlassefi; Sep 11, 2012 at 04:14 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,878
From: Thousand Oaks Ca
Bazil, being from Russia you need to get with one these guys that build Olds engines, and can dyno test it after their rebuild, and get with the best, do your research, your a long ways away. Good luck!
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,477
From: Central Fl
Just viewed the pics(couldn't view them with my iphone at first). Forged TRW/Speed Pro pistons. High volume pump. Can't make out the full number on the cam, if you can give me that I can probably find out what it is. Stock rods and crank. And yes I'll stay with my first comments, trash and bad clearances.
Pm'd you as well.
Pm'd you as well.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 35
From: Moscow, Russia
While the block and crank/rods are being inspected and measured for bore and hone , I want to share my thoughts with you regarding assembling a mild street engine. The aim is to have a higher than stock output power plant without sacrificing low end torque, steady idle and vacuum for the brakes.
Budget is tight, but I’m ready to invest (reasonably)now, instead of rebuilding the engine in next 20k miles again…
The Edelbrock heads are fine, I want to change the valves and grind them to the seats.
Intake – Edelbrock performer, or air gap Performer. What do You recommend ?
Carb – I’mm satisfied with my Demon, it proved to be easy adjustable and a service free device .
I would prefer to stick to forged pistons, waiting for info from the shop to which size do we need to bore.
See no reason to change the Crank and rods. just have theme pollished or honed for a correct fitvif needed
Cam Shaft – this is the main concern for me. I had a Lunati with stamping 262250 or 59 (will take a closer look tomorrow. had hardly any vacuum and trembling idle.
Guys, what motor oil do u use for your engines? i still think it's partly responsible for the trouble...
to be continued
Budget is tight, but I’m ready to invest (reasonably)now, instead of rebuilding the engine in next 20k miles again…
The Edelbrock heads are fine, I want to change the valves and grind them to the seats.
Intake – Edelbrock performer, or air gap Performer. What do You recommend ?
Carb – I’mm satisfied with my Demon, it proved to be easy adjustable and a service free device .
I would prefer to stick to forged pistons, waiting for info from the shop to which size do we need to bore.
See no reason to change the Crank and rods. just have theme pollished or honed for a correct fitvif needed
Cam Shaft – this is the main concern for me. I had a Lunati with stamping 262250 or 59 (will take a closer look tomorrow. had hardly any vacuum and trembling idle.
Guys, what motor oil do u use for your engines? i still think it's partly responsible for the trouble...
to be continued
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 35
From: Moscow, Russia
an assembled block would be great if not the shipping cost of $3 per pound !!! and thats from Newark warehouse.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 35
From: Moscow, Russia
gas is not an issue. octane 92,95,98 gas pump. i tried all. The behaviour on 95 and 98 is practically the same. 98 runs more per mile and works a little smoother.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,477
From: Central Fl
Recip assembly is the crank rods and pistons.
Can you give me the all numbers cam both front and back? I can't read them too well from your pic.
Last edited by cutlassefi; Sep 12, 2012 at 01:18 PM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 35
From: Moscow, Russia
I've found an answer to my question
USA (AKI/PON) --- Europe (RON)
87 = 91
89 = 93
91 = 95
93 = 98
the cam has several numbers, all at the back of the shaft:
from top to bottom:
117809
262296
251458
from from centre to side
36306 or 35306
and
112 (guess that may be the lobe)
Last edited by cutlass.supreme; Sep 13, 2012 at 02:53 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 776
From: chicago il
use straight 30 w break in oil to break your new one in and call mondello in the usa or dick miller for a cam for your application proper and also discuss the converter tire size rear plus rear gear and compression with them. they have all the recipes and answers dude jfb.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,477
From: Central Fl
And most on here wouldn't touch Mondello in Ca with a 10 foot pole, DUDE.
Lol, that's funny right there!
Last edited by cutlassefi; Sep 13, 2012 at 06:54 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,703
Vassily,
Your best bet is to run Valvoline VR1 FOSSIL oil, either in 10W30 or 20W50, OR mix them for about a 10W40. Run it for break in, run it forever. Fossil oils allow the rings to seal better to the cylinder wall (or so I'm told) and are better for older street cars. Also, the high ZDDP content in the VR1 is better for the flat tappet cam in your engine. If you cannot get Valvoline VR1 where you are, make sure you get an oil with a high Zinc content for lubrication.
Secondly, don't call Mondello...you will get a shaft driven up your behind and won't have any recourse because you are in Russia. In fact, they will probably drill you harder because of it. You have all the experience you need right here on CO...we can give you the advice, you just need to find the person that will understand it and follow through with it.
Lastly, I know you say you want to run a forged piston but why? You are looking for low end torque and a smooth running street engine with moderate power...that is a prime candidate for cast pistons. You can run a tighter wall clearance, the piston will be quieter in the bore, and you'll still make all the power you need. Talk with Mark about it, I'm pretty sure he'll agree unless there is a fuel discrepancy that would justify it...or if you're planning on using a little juicy juice in there once in a while
Good luck with it!
P.S. Did your heads have an accessory bolt break in them? Or did they strip out an accessory hole? I thought I saw a heli-coil in one of the holes...maybe not? IDK.
Your best bet is to run Valvoline VR1 FOSSIL oil, either in 10W30 or 20W50, OR mix them for about a 10W40. Run it for break in, run it forever. Fossil oils allow the rings to seal better to the cylinder wall (or so I'm told) and are better for older street cars. Also, the high ZDDP content in the VR1 is better for the flat tappet cam in your engine. If you cannot get Valvoline VR1 where you are, make sure you get an oil with a high Zinc content for lubrication.
Secondly, don't call Mondello...you will get a shaft driven up your behind and won't have any recourse because you are in Russia. In fact, they will probably drill you harder because of it. You have all the experience you need right here on CO...we can give you the advice, you just need to find the person that will understand it and follow through with it.
Lastly, I know you say you want to run a forged piston but why? You are looking for low end torque and a smooth running street engine with moderate power...that is a prime candidate for cast pistons. You can run a tighter wall clearance, the piston will be quieter in the bore, and you'll still make all the power you need. Talk with Mark about it, I'm pretty sure he'll agree unless there is a fuel discrepancy that would justify it...or if you're planning on using a little juicy juice in there once in a while
Good luck with it!
P.S. Did your heads have an accessory bolt break in them? Or did they strip out an accessory hole? I thought I saw a heli-coil in one of the holes...maybe not? IDK.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 35
From: Moscow, Russia
Vassily,
Your best bet is to run Valvoline VR1 FOSSIL oil, either in 10W30 or 20W50, OR mix them for about a 10W40. Run it for break in, run it forever. Fossil oils allow the rings to seal better to the cylinder wall (or so I'm told) and are better for older street cars. Also, the high ZDDP content in the VR1 is better for the flat tappet cam in your engine. If you cannot get Valvoline VR1 where you are, make sure you get an oil with a high Zinc content for lubrication.
Secondly, don't call Mondello...you will get a shaft driven up your behind and won't have any recourse because you are in Russia. In fact, they will probably drill you harder because of it. You have all the experience you need right here on CO...we can give you the advice, you just need to find the person that will understand it and follow through with it.
Lastly, I know you say you want to run a forged piston but why? You are looking for low end torque and a smooth running street engine with moderate power...that is a prime candidate for cast pistons. You can run a tighter wall clearance, the piston will be quieter in the bore, and you'll still make all the power you need. Talk with Mark about it, I'm pretty sure he'll agree unless there is a fuel discrepancy that would justify it...or if you're planning on using a little juicy juice in there once in a while
Good luck with it!
P.S. Did your heads have an accessory bolt break in them? Or did they strip out an accessory hole? I thought I saw a heli-coil in one of the holes...maybe not? IDK.
Your best bet is to run Valvoline VR1 FOSSIL oil, either in 10W30 or 20W50, OR mix them for about a 10W40. Run it for break in, run it forever. Fossil oils allow the rings to seal better to the cylinder wall (or so I'm told) and are better for older street cars. Also, the high ZDDP content in the VR1 is better for the flat tappet cam in your engine. If you cannot get Valvoline VR1 where you are, make sure you get an oil with a high Zinc content for lubrication.
Secondly, don't call Mondello...you will get a shaft driven up your behind and won't have any recourse because you are in Russia. In fact, they will probably drill you harder because of it. You have all the experience you need right here on CO...we can give you the advice, you just need to find the person that will understand it and follow through with it.
Lastly, I know you say you want to run a forged piston but why? You are looking for low end torque and a smooth running street engine with moderate power...that is a prime candidate for cast pistons. You can run a tighter wall clearance, the piston will be quieter in the bore, and you'll still make all the power you need. Talk with Mark about it, I'm pretty sure he'll agree unless there is a fuel discrepancy that would justify it...or if you're planning on using a little juicy juice in there once in a while
Good luck with it!
P.S. Did your heads have an accessory bolt break in them? Or did they strip out an accessory hole? I thought I saw a heli-coil in one of the holes...maybe not? IDK.
I was impressed by viewing Mark's work on the dyno! We are in touch, moreover after the comments in this thread and info i've looked up on CO i know what i want now.
The long rod sticking out of one of the heads is holding the alternator. It's a hand made construction, but quite strong. At a later stage i will go for a surpentine set up, but not this year... appart from Olds i need to feed my family as well... you know.
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