Hi folks.

Happy to finally have post privileges on this site. I have a new toy and need a little help. The transmission/engine was reportedly from a 1969 Toronado 455ci. I am reasonable sure the transmission is a THM425, but it appears to be from a later model based on not having a bolt and wire on the left hand bell housing by the flange...if my research is correct. Where I'm running into issues is IDing the motor. It has an older Eldelbrock "Torker" intake, but there are no casting or ID marks I can find anywhere exterior on the heads, water pump area or any where else on the block. It's as if they were ground off on last rebuild. Talked to Eldelbrock and the said my "Torker" p/n will only fit the 455,425 and 400 Olds large block engines. Am I correct the 403 is a small block?...because I am not familiar with a 400 large block Olds engine? Basically any info you folks can provide to help me ID things will help immensely. Not ready to pull it apart yet, but below I provided a link (another forum) showing my toy starting on page 6, post #58 and a few more pictures loaded here taken after the original build that might help.

Thank you for any help.

http://www.sterlingkitcars.com/membe...0-years-6.html

 

Weclome. I've always liked the kit cars with Toro drive. Your photos, unfortunately, are about the least useful ones you could have posted for us to help you. The block casting number is located on the small "shelf" above the water pump, next to the oil fill tube. The trans will be either a TH425, TH325, or TH325L4. The first two are three speed, the latter is a four speed OD trans. There should be a tag on the side of the trans to help identify it.

 

Thanks joe,

As stated the cast ID marks were ground off or missing on the shelf and no casting marks remain on the heads either. Heard this happens sometimes on remans/rebuilds, but it's just rumor to me. If Edelbrock's info is correct...the motor has to be a large block Olds for the Torker Intake to fit...but who knows. So back to my questions, shy of pulling the heads to check bore/stroke and oil pan to check the webs...is there any other way to ID this motor given whats been ground off and/or removed. The tag on the left side of the trans is also missing, but confidence is high the trans is a "later model" THM425 after speaking with Manny at http://www.mannystransmission.biz/ and sharing a few cell phone shots. So assuming this is correct, the list of original donors is limited to:

• 1971-1979 Cortez Motor Home
• 1966–1978 Oldsmobile Toronado
• 1967–1978 Cadillac Eldorado
• 1973-1978 GMC Motorhome
• 1973-1978 GMC TransMode multi-purpose vehicle
• 1972-1978 Revcon motorhome

So based on all the info I can find using Google, Edelbrock and Manny, best guess I have to this point is a 425, 455 or 403 Olds motor...though I know others have been fitted over the years.

 

I get my info from Oldsmobile factory documents and not the web. There is more incorrect info on the web than factual data, especially with respect to Olds motors.

The big block/small block distinction refers to deck height. The 400, 425, and 455 motors have a taller deck height than the 260, 307, 330, 350, and 403 motors. Yes, the E-brock Torker only fits the BBO (and NOT the 403, which is an SBO). I've never seen a rebuilder waste the time grinding off casting numbers. I've only seen this done when someone was trying to conceal the fact that they used crappy parts (like the "J" casting smog heads that I have that someone ground the "J" off of to hide that fact). The heads will have a six digit casting number above the center two exhaust ports. That will tell you the head origin.

Since the heads are off, what is the bore? Both the 425 and 455 motors used a 4.125" bore, but pistons are different due to the different stroke and rod length. If you can find a part number stamped on the piston face (aftermarket pistons often have this) you may be able to tell what it is. There were two different 400 motors, the short stroke and the long stroke. Short stroke 400s used a 4.000" bore, long stroke used a 3.890" bore. Of course, if the motor has been rebuilt, all bets are off since (for example) people use 4.057" 350 pistons in a rebuilt short stroke 400.

There is no such thing as an "early" or "late" TH425. The are all internally the same and based on the TH400 rotating parts. The only fundamental difference over the years is the type of filter used. The TH325 was used in the early 1980s FWD cars and is based on the weak TH200 internals. The TH325L4 is from that same time period and is based on the 200-4R internals.

 

I was "told" the earlier THM425s had a wire or harness going forward from the bell on the left side around the are where the fluid lines come out left of the data tag. Also that there was an additional bolt/fastener in that area on the first flange left of the fluid lines. Just what I was told. Either way, based on other markings I have identified on the trans...it's "likely" still a THM425. As for the casting numbers being removed, my suspicion is this may have been done intentionally for inspection purposes for the initial California Titling process. The vehicle is titled as a stand alone 1969 Cimbria...not a manufactured or kit car. This was based on information and receipts given that the drivetrain was taken from a 1969 Torodado. I have the paperwork in hand. Also have the document from the assigned CHP inspector that he could not physically verify the drivetrain to match the receipt. If you know anything about titling custom vehicles in CA it will make more sense.

Anyway...guess I'll just have to wait till I pull the package to find out. My biggest "fear" was that I had a 403 and based on my measurements across the front between the heads (the other way to check deck height) I should be good. Still not familiar with any vehicles with a 400 originally mated to a THM425, but please feel free to let me know otherwise. If you have not already, please visit my forum link see the build log on this vehicle. The only thing kit about this car was the body.

Again, thanks for the heads- up and the friendly joe.

 

I have a follow up question. Does anyone know of a good shop in the Dallas Fort Worth area that is reputable and knowledgeable with Olds Engines and the THM425 transmissions...please.

 

looks like "J" heads in the build pics

 

All TH425s use an electric kickdown and have an electric connector.

No, but any 1964-1990 Olds V8 will bolt to that trans. Since this was totally fabricated, there is no telling what the builder used without further data.

 

Seems I cleared my previous...so to repeat appx.

I was told the early THM425s had a harness or wire going forward off the bell on the left where the fluid lines and ID tag "should be". Yes I have heard of people grinding off head casting numbers for said reasons, but I'm missing all numbers. I suspect mine are missing due to California's very restrictive titling laws for custom vehicles. I have the receipt for a 1969 Toronado drive train in the official paperwork along with the CHP Inspectors report which notes that he could not verify the the engine/trans package actually matched that receipt. In the end the Vehicle was Titled as a stand alone 1969 Cimbria...not a manufactured or Kit car. If you have ever tried to title a custom vehicle you know what I'm implying. I am happy to report that based on the measurement between the heads in front (deck height) that I do not have a 403. No disrespect, but I'd rather buy new heads for a BB than deal with a weak bottom. So being reasonable sure I have a THM425 based on other indicators and feeling reasonable sure I have a BB... guess I'll just find out for sure when I pull the package and get started. Please feel free to view the forum link I posted. You will understand then where I'm coming from.

Again joe, thanks for the heads-up and the friendly.

 

Sure does. I'm guessing the entire drivetrain was lifted from a mid-70s Toro, so low CR 455, J heads, and TH425.

Looks like a Mid-Engineering chassis, also, though the later photos appear to have panels welded on that disguise that heritage.

 

From this photo, it pretty clearly is a TH425. Interesting method of storing the body...



You can see the "J" ground off in this photo, but again, check the casting number above the center two exhaust ports. I'm betting it's 411783. Yes, if the car is registered as a "1969 Toro", this was clearly done to hide the fact that it's a newer motor subject to more stringent emissions equipment requirements.

 

OK, apparently they were VERY thorough in grinding off ALL the casting numbers, including the head numbers...

 

Good catch Sir on the J. Thank you for that. Yes it is a Mid-Engineering Chassis,Toronado III customized to fit the application, and I did suspect early-mid 70's on the package based on my research and the info I got from Manny. Very helpful man. So when the motor/trans comes out, I will still need a good machine shop and trans shop in my area familiar with both if you guys hear anything. The heads will be easy. I like aluminum.

 

Realize I'm still a new guy here, but can anyone on this site recommend first hand a good machine shop and transmission shop in the Dallas TX area that's Oldsmobile familiar and proficient?

 

There are a couple of shops that I have used around here. Max Long in Irving at Warehouse Auto parts on Irving Blvd is good with Olds engines. Also Arlington Machine on a short section of Main street in Arlington. I do not know of a trans shop in the local area but would recommend Phoenix transmission in Weatherford for any trans work.

You have a PM

 

Thanks, will give the a yell.