Ok. I am confused. My 67 Toronado timing is off. Replaced the distributor, but I have a sneaky suspicion that the harmonic balancer is slipping, will have to replace that, but have been setting timing by just listening to engine.
The thing is, timing. If the timing is 5 BTDC, and I move it to 10 (example…). That means I am retarding the timing? Or advancing?
To move the timing from 5 to 10, do I turn the distributor anti clockwise (I think)
If you drive, and hear pinging, then you move the timing from 5 to 10? Or 10 to 5?

The 10 and 5 are just examples.

 

Moving from 5BTDC to 10BTDC is advancing, since the spark is firing earlier in the cycle. If the car is pinging, you want to retard - move from 10 to 5 - to make the spark occur later in the cycle.

 

Timing is counter clockwise. Timing by ear is not very accurate. Going from 5-10 is advancing and if you hear ping you go from 10-5 which is declining.

To check your harmonic balancer is quite easy. Remove the number 1 spark plug and distributor cap, leave the rotor on and mark the #1 wire on the side of the housing in accordance to its location on the cap. Hand turn the crank until you hear a swooshing sound or have someone stick their finger over the spark plug hole to feel when the air comes out and the rotor is pointing to where you marked the #1 spark plug wire. Then look at the balancer and see if the mark lines up with the "0" on the timing tab. If it is way off the balancer has spun.

 

Because the Olds distributor runs CCW as viewed from above, and the spark occurs when the rotor aligns with a certain point in the housing... thus moving the housing more CCW makes the spark occur later in time, and rotating the housing against the rotor rotation [in our case, CW] causes that spark to occur earlier in time.

You can tell the rotation of any distributor with a vacuum advance unit by following the vacuum unit into the distributor, then around the shaft... that's the way the rotor spins.


To check your harmonic balancer is quite easy. Remove the number 1 spark plug and distributor cap, leave the rotor on and mark the #1 wire on the side of the housing in accordance to its location on the cap. Hand turn the crank until you hear a swooshing sound or have someone stick their finger over the spark plug hole to feel when the air comes out and the rotor is pointing to where you marked the #1 spark plug wire. Then look at the balancer and see if the mark lines up with the "0" on the timing tab. If it is way off the balancer has spun.
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The above could be off by 10 degrees, depending on skill level. It's a long ways thru a lot of slop from piston to rotor tip. To check your mark very accurately, within a degree or two, insert a copper wire or coat hanger or the like until it touches the #1 or #6 piston, whichever is handier. One person holds and gently guides the wire or rod [in line with the cylinder is best, but anything close to that is OK] while another turns the crank back and forth until that wire is pushed out as far as possible. That is true TDC within a degree or three, depending on your skills. Compression stroke or exhaust, makes no difference. If your balancer mark is not almost exactly, within 1-2 mark widths, at zero degrees, then you need to replace, alter, or adjust parts to correct that.


As to your issue in general... was the replacement an exact duplicate with the right mecahnical advance and vacuum advance curves, or "some generic" perhaps rebuilt unit? If your advance curves are not tailored to the engine, you cannot expect optimal behavior. Can you refresh your original distributor? I have the bushing install tools, have done a few lately. Clean, lube, and a nice new vacuum can of the correct calibration should be a good start on proper engine tune.

 

Thanks guys.

I checked the harmonic balancer with a stop bolt. Put special bolt in the #1 cylinder. Turn engine one way by hand, make a mark, turn other way. TDC is inbetween the marks.
Anyway, TDC was WAY off. The guy had the engine rebuilt, so I just thought he made a mistake. But now my timing mark has moved again!!
I set it at 7.5 – 8. Then this weekend it was around 15 …huh? I thought my timing light was off
It just dawned on me that the balancer might have shifted.

I replaced the distributor with a rebuilt one from Rock Auto. Specifies my 67 as the match for that distributor. I just replaced the distributor as I just bought the car, and slowly replacing or checking everything.

So if the book specifies 7.5 degrees, and I move it to 5 degrees. My car wont ping, but I might get less power ?
Same way around. If I use 110 octane for example, I would want to move the timing to 10?

The car starts and runs well now. Just have no idea what my timing is.

Nice tip about looking at the vacuum advance.

 

Yes, that's essentially it.


Sounds like you need a new balancer.

Lots of members on this board have them and could sell you one.

- Eric

 

Thanks guys. Just ordered one online. Didnt think people on the board would have these NOS. Apprecite the help though. Just bought the Toronado a few weeks ago, and of course the gremlins are all appearing.

 

Just one more thing to consider checking out. If it still has it's original factory cam timing gear, it may be loosing one or more of it's plastic teeth. I have had this happen on several of my higher mileage 455's. When this happens there is excessive slack in the timing chain causing what appears to be timing problems. When the cam gear deteriorates enough and gets enough extra slack, the engine won't run. I make it a priority to change to a solid steel after-market cam gear for any Olds engine that I plan on keeping.

 

So, you found an NOS Toro 425 unit?
Ok, that's kewl.
I recommend you verify TDC mark upon installation.



I checked the harmonic balancer with a stop bolt. Put special bolt in the #1 cylinder. Turn engine one way by hand, make a mark, turn other way. TDC is in between the marks.
Anyway, TDC was WAY off.... Now my timing mark has moved again!! I set it at 7.5 – 8. Then this weekend it was around 15.
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So, your balancer's mark IS NOT where it should be...?


The car starts and runs well now. Just have no idea what my timing is.
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OK




I replaced the distributor with a rebuilt one from Rock Auto.
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Did you save the original?


Specifies my 67 as the match for that distributor.
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Yeah, that might mean that it fits in and turns. May NOT mean that it has MA and VA specs close to your factory configuration. Take a look at the Distributor PN lists- there are a LOT of small and not so small variations:
http://www.oldsmobility.com/mpc/grou...tributor05.htm


I just replaced the distributor as I just bought the car, and slowly replacing or checking everything.
===============
I recommend rebuilding original parts when possible, especially items crucial to operation.


So if the book specifies 7.5 degrees, and I move it to 5 degrees. My car wont ping, but I might get less power ?
Same way around. If I use 110 octane for example, I would want to move the timing to 10?
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yes, but you have to know where the timing is. *KNOW*

 

So in the end it was the harmonic balancer. Ordered an after market one. Professional Products. Nice balancer, but does not fit. Too wide, the weight in the back would hit the timing cover. Actually if you pull the balancer in, its against the timing cover.
Ordered a rebuilt one. Keeping the old one. Keep all my old parts that are rebuildable.
Did make some marks on the pulley, and works great now. Probably not 100%, but much better than before. Book specifies 7.5, just set it at 7 ish for now.
When I took the old balancer out, I could feel the outer weight moving when I shook the balancer.
So much trouble with the balancer. The moment I would make the marks, the outer right would move, and I would get timing of 14 or whatever. Confused the hell out of me.

 

Glad to hear you have it corrected. Bump your timing up a little, your engine will thank you.

 

Move the timing to 6?

 

No between 7.5 and 10. Now that you have the balancer replaced and an accurate reading.

 

Thanks. Will move it to 8 for now.
When I put the old harmonic balancer back, waiting for new one to come, I put some grease on the shaft. I know the book specifies putting grease on the outside, for the seal, which I replaced too.
Can I put bit of grease on the shaft? Black RTV in the key area?
Still waiting for new one. The first one I bought was too thick. So much work taking them off and putting back on

 

NO.

Do not put anything on it, except maybe a few drops of light oil.
It is made to be dry.
Foreign materials increase play and will likely lead to ruining your crank.

- Eric

 

Thanks. Will just clean it up before I put the new balancer on.

 

Got the new balancer. Much better now. I believe the balancer was rebuilt. Looks like new, but the timing marks were a bit off, 15 degrees. Not an issue, just worked out TDC, and now that I know its off, will adjust the timing that way. Timing light has advance, very cool feature. Never thought it would be useful, but it is, especially if your marks are off.

 

You got a new balancer that was 15° off?!?

That's not right.

Are you sure it was for the right engine?

Someone else here will know how many degrees off the '64 balancers are, but I don't understand how a new balancer could be 15° off.
If that's screwed up, who knows what else might be wrong with it - I'd sned it back.

- Eric

 

olds recommended a soft-setting sealer on the i.d. of the balancer, to seal against oil leakage/seepage past the crank to balancer area and the mondo washer out front.


bill

 

Well I'll be darned - you're absolutely right.

Shows me to actually read the manual...



- Eric

 

some people read mystery novels, others read romance novels... i read service manuals/technical literature. lol


bill

 

Ha. That usually describes me. Except when it counts, I guess...

- Eric

 

That and parts catalogs. It's good morning library reading.

 

The balancer was probably rebuilt. Seeing that the timing is a bit off. I actually bought a brand new balancer, but it would not fit. The balancer is slightly too thick, would. It ends up flush against the timing cover. Had to send it back, and found this one on ebay. With my old one, if you shook it by the outer ring, you could feel the inner part moving. Even with the balancer doctor, would have had to send mine in. Now at least I have a core. Not sure if it is all Toronados or just certain years, but the balancer is quite thin. I installed it with a bit of anti seize and RTV in the keyhole. Wasnt a bad job, just irritating having to take stuff off and put back on.

 

So have been busy playing around with the timing still. Car runs much better, but still not where I want it.
I found that connecting the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum and then setting the timing to around 9 works great. Idle is nice and smooth, engine just seems to be livelier and smoother. I have upgraded the vacuum advance to a B22 from the stock B1. The one in the rebuilt distributor was something else, so just dumped that out.
My vacuum at idle, 600 rpm is around 15.5, and I have read that if you want to connect to manifold, the VAC should provide full advance at not less than 2 inches Hg less than the prevailing vacuum at normal idle speeds. B22 is at max advance 14-16, while B26 is at max advance 11-13. Reason I chose B22.

However my next problem is that there is a slight ping at cruising. Just a certain very low rpm’s. When I give gas, the ping goes away.

So I am thinking, either play around with the vacuum cans, maybe a bit more aggressive B26, or even the stock B1 unit, and / or upgrade the weights to get less advance at low rpm cruising.?

I read the instructions for the weights and springs, and it seems I have to take the shaft out to put in the new bushings? Do I really need the new bushings, or can I just put springs on there? The previous owner had the engine rebuilt. He said at first he put in a too wild cam, and the car did not have enough vacuum at lower speeds for the brakes, so he put in a different cam. I asked him about it, and he said it was stock, but I just have a sneaky feeling its not a stock cam. Just sounds a bit wilder. He couldnt give me much details on this, reason for me experimenting with everything.

How about the adjustable cans? I have read some reviews on them that they don’t seem to last too long. Break easily.

 

Well, the good thing is. Reading posts and trying different things out, I know a LOT more about timing than a few months ago.

 

You need to set you initial timing with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged. Then connect it and lower your idle rpm down because when you connect it to full manifold vacuum it will go up.

 

I think I got it now. After a lot of experimenting with vacuum advance cans and springs, the car runs a lot better. For example idle used to pull around 15.5 Hg, now I get 19 Hg vacuum at idle. Used to be the vacuum gauge needle would jump around, while it is very steady now. You can barely hear or feel the car at idle. On the highway there are still a few vacuum leaks and other things to take care of, but it seems to run quit a bit better. Next step now is to rebuild the carb. The previous owner had the car since the 90s and he never rebuilt the carb, and only driving 3000 or so miles during that time., so I am sure things might be a bit gunked up in there. One step at a time.