s i 442

I changed the distributor and wires, finally got it back in time. 67 400 E block.
I gapped the plugs to .043 (R43S), Timing is 36 at 2800, initial is 25.
After I plug the vacuum back up the over all timing is 50.
I take the car out and its embarrassing, dog taking off or punching it after moving.
The 600 Edelbrock is sucking like a toranado ( have new 750 Holley) for later install. Anyways Its like it bogs just giving it gas to take off.
It ran a whole lot better before I worked on it today, not screaming but better than this???

rjohnson442

TOTAL TIMING OF 50!!!!! you want the timing to be all in by 3000 RPM and a total of around 30 to 34ish . I can't believe its even running! start with around 12 at idle and go from there.

s i 442

After you set your 36@ 2800, then you hook the vacuum pod on the distributar to full vacuum and on a dial back timing light you will have 50-52 total timing.

m371961

Maybe I am wrong here, but you want your vacuum connected when setting at 2800.
Disconnected for idle setting.

s i 442

Set your total mechanical timing with a dial back timing light to 34 deg BTDC with the vacuum advance disconnected. Then see where the initial winds up at idle. You want to try to keep your idle around 7-750 rpm. Then you can subtract you initial from your total and thats how much mechanical advance you have. Then hook full time vacuum back up and set idle.

RetroRanger

With 25 initial & 36 total your only getting 11 mechanical. Is that what you had on the old dist 11. Mech?

What was the old dist and what's the new one ? Stock points or HEI or other

oldcutlass

What distributor are you running, I don't like the initial at 25 and a total of 36 which gives you a mechanical advance of 11. With vacuum is fine @ 50.

What are the spec's of your 400? Plus I think the 600 edelbrock is too small.

s i 442

I went from a totally stock Hei to an after market Ebay HEI.
And yes the 600 is too small!
I have a brand new "Quick Fuel Technology" Slayer 750 cfm vacuum secondary and a Performer intake as my next project.
Im going to completely pull the dist out and start over Sunday.

rjohnson442

You'll have to set the total timing with the vac attached and then see where the initial lands at. Then adjust your idle speed to suit. The only thing you want definite is that you wont go over your total that the engine likes. Get that first then you can start screwing with advance curve springs and vac advances. are you sure the Flebay HEI is for an olds we spin backwards.

s i 442

Got most of it taken care of this morning.
I completely took the dist out and lined up the balencer to zero, then added 10 degrees. (that keeps the advance pod from being so close to the firewall after all the adjusting).
Dropped the dist in on #6 and it fired right up.
Without vacuum I had 25 initial and 36@ only 2000rpms.
I adjusted the vacuum pod all the way in for slower but it didn't do anything so Im going to add a heavy spring sometime.
But no more sluggish throttle or bogging kick down.
It starts real good and idles plus the water temp is always no higher than 180.

oldcutlass

Your initial timing is way to high, your advance mechanism possibly has issues. You should have more than 11 degrees of mechanical advance. Your total mechanical + initial timing should be set to 36 degrees BTDC without vacuum connected @ around 3000 RPM. Most HEI's have 15-18 degrees of mechanical advance, usually closer to 18. When the vacuum advance is setup you should have somewhere around 48-52 degrees total timing @ 3000 RPM, initial+mechanical+vacuum.

cutlassefi

Why does everybody think it's ok to have 50* of timing even at cruise? I have EFI and an infinitely adjustable timing curve and I can tell you that my 9.7:1 350 doesn't like anyhwere near 50*. More like 44 at cruise. And I can tell that by how much fuel it uses. It gets less efficient at anything above that.

Octania

you seem to be under the impression that fiddling with the vacuum can will alter the stiffness of the spring inside, or the force on it at least. I used to think that too, until I set up my HEI last year. Turns out, the adjustment only limits the TRAVEL of the plunger- the amount of VA it can offer. No adjustment from (none to all) to (all of it) made ANY difference in the vacuum level at which the advance began, or maxed out. The adjustment DID however make a lot of difference in the total VA observed to be provided. I think I ended up with 11 degrees of VA, which worked out well on the high compression 403. Read all about it at RealOldsPower.com... oh yeah that died.



"Why does everybody think it's ok to have 50* of timing even at cruise? I have EFI and an infinitely adjustable timing curve and I can tell you that my 9.7:1 350 doesn't like anyhwere near 50*. More like 44 at cruise. And I can tell that by how much fuel it uses. It gets less efficient at anything above that."
==================
I for one would love to hear how the optimal max timing is found with the resources available to most of us. The factory had all day to work on it and dozens of engineers and technicians to test every possible combination and zero in on the best settings. We have... a timing light, adjustable vacuum cans, and various springs and weights and center oval pieces to fiddle with, and precious little in the way of instruments to read any RESULTS that might arise from all the fiddling we do... Seat of the pants dyno and maybe fuel consumption based on how often we supply more fuel...

oldcutlass

Most V8's like a total mechanical advance around 36, vacuum advance for most used to be 52 on a relatively stock engine. With todays fuel 48-50 seems to work well. It can be higher or lower.

cutlassefi

With EFI it's easy, vacuum and O2 feedback.
I look at my screen, add or subtract timing at cruise and see how the vacuum scale reacts, did it go up or down? Did the O2 have to start adding fuel or is it removing any from the existing fuel curve?

On a non EFI setup engine vacuum would be the best indicator for the most part. But you'd have to do the same stretch of road at exactly the same speed to see the differences in vacuum vs. spark settings.

I've been tuning EFI setups since '03 and have never seen any appreciable benefit when going that high. Maybe if you have an 8.5:1 engine and you're running 93, but otherwise most often the efficiency starts to go the other way.

oldcutlass

We aren't talking about an EFI setup. I don't know anything about those maybe someday I'll tinker.

cutlassefi

I know, he asked how I do it and how it might be done otherwise.

oldcutlass

I understand what he asked, I was commenting on your statement.

s i 442

Do you think that since I advanced the timing 10 degrees before i installed the dist that really my 25 is only 15 and the 10 mark on the timing tab is really my 0?

rjohnson442

Could be one tooth off when you dropped it in. You can get it in at zero and still have enough room to advance the body of the distributor. Start back from TDC NO advance at all remove the cap to confirm your on the post and wire #1 from there. It think one tooth is 15 degrees though, someone else know I'm sure.

oldcutlass

No, there is no such thing as 1 tooth off as far as timing, all it effects is where the housing is positioned with relation to where #1 is wired.. If you measured 25 degrees initial with your timing light then it's 25.

cutlassefi

Gotcha, huge learning curve. Very glad I did it.

oldcutlass

Gotcha what? The OP is not talking about an EFI engine, so why compare and comment on what your findings are with EFI. It only makes it more confusing.

s i 442

This my last reply on this subject.
nothings getting any better.
If I drop the timing to 20 the engine starts smoking and starts to heat up, I go back up to 23 and it all calms down. Runs best at 25 but then even with a spring so heavy I have to use neddle nose to put it on the weight I can get advance to get 36@ about 2500.
So what ever it does it does, tired of messing with timing everyday going on to something else!

oldcutlass

No problem, it's your car. I'm just trying to tell you, it's messed up. You get what you pay for with the ebay distributor.

MDchanic

I vote for a misplaced timing mark.
We've seen no pictures yet, and I'm suspicious that it's something obvious.

As far as I can tell, this entire thread has been a waste of energy, except that it made me want to get an EFI setup, which, I guess, makes it even worse than a waste of energy, because now I'll never be happy with my QuadraJet again.

Thanks, Mark.

- Eric

[ps: Mark, I've been working a lot, and have a radiator leak to fix and an exhaust system to install, but I'll get back to you after I've got it together again with the latest I've figured out.]

oldcutlass

Maybe, but then his total timing would be off the same amount. He only has 11 degrees advance. That's wrong.

MDchanic

I agree. Can't see a reason for it. "Crappy eBay distributor" is probably not a real explanation.

- Eric

oldcutlass

I'm in the group that likes to know why something is out of whack, not the one that throws their hands up and says "I'm tired of messing with it and I'm moving on".

It also upsets me when people persistently reply to a thread with off the wall answers that are 100% wrong or are about systems that the OP does not have on his/her car.

Now clearly his issue is related to a bad distributor setup, bad timing light, or possibly as you stated a spun harmonic balance. All of which are correctable.

MDchanic

... Or something really off the wall, like an incorrect timing tab...

- Eric

1970-W30

The key words are; "It ran a whole lot better before I worked on it today" from the first post. That tells me whatever was swapped and/or adjusted is faulty..... The timing tab didn't change, very unlikely that the balancer spun exactly at the same time the changes were made. High probability that the "new" Ebay HEI is the culprit.
Just my two cents......

MDchanic

^^ I can't argue with any of that ^^

- Eric