crholds442

I am going to pull the '74 455 out of my 69 442 conv. and rebuild it to a level that it performs well with a TH 400 auto. This is not going to be a dragstrip queen or a street runner.... just a fun car to pop the top and go for a Sunday cruise with Nana and the grandkids. I have evisioned Eldelbrock heads, manifold and a 750 Holley doublepumper with mechanical secondaries. Also, new forged pistons, Melling Hi cap oil pump, 7qt oil pan, Crane roller cam (good lo rpm torque) and a Petronix HEI. I get excited just thinking about putting this stuff into the 455. But, in reality, am I overbuilding this engine as I have described, or would just taking the "J" heads, having them exhaust ported as best possible, with a milder cam/forged 9.5 to 1 piston setup really do the job for the type of performace I am looking for? This '74 455 has a rebuilt stock 4-barrel and is rated at 230 hp. It runs lousy and I certainly want much better performance. More than a couple guys in this forum have given the "j" heads some decent credit. What does it take to make J heads work well and is it worth the price differential as opposed to 1800$ for Edelbrock heads? There is a lot of good experience in this big block forum and I'd like your input before I start tearing the engine down... Thanks!!

svnt442

I'll give you my experience with them. I build a mild 455 about 17 years ago. I used off the shelf TRW L2323-30 pistons, stock rods, the crank was -.010/-.010 main and rods, stock J heads, Erson double roller timing chain, Erson JB100 cam

"2,500-

cutlassefi

Like Randy said, Speed Pro L2323 and good valve job with the right cam will get you pretty far. At that point it depends on what your ultimate goals are.
But unless you're planning on 450hp or better and a good gear, scrap the idea of a double pumper, use a vacuum secondary carb.

Randy, how does that JB100 idle? We mostly do those on a 110 now.

crholds442

Some great information to get me started. I think it makes sense to start out with cleaned up stock J Heads and go from there. They can be switched out if I get bored!
Summit has a rebuild kit with forged pistons, and I would like to find out more about the right cam to use in this set up. I think the extra cost up front for a roller cam would be worth it. Edelbrock, Crane, Erson. Where do I find info and prices on Erson cams for a 455?. Which cam and duration, etc. would be most practical? I don't want to lose any low RPM torque.
I had a 70 GTO with a Hurst 4 spd manual and I loved driving it with carb that had mechanical secondaries. My kit 5.0 Shelby Cobra has a 650 cfm double pumper with mechanical secondaries. I know exactly when the secondaries will open up on the throttle. Does the automatic trans make the difference? I am not opposed to vaccum controlled secondaries. I would go with a 750 Edlebrock in that case. Great info. thanks, guys!!

cutlassefi

Yes you can by more often than not with a double pump when you have a manual trans.

Erson flat tappet cams are $225.00 plus shipping with lifters, Hyd rollers are $650.00 plus shipping with lifters. Tell me exactly what you're looking for and we'll grind one up for you, probably something around a 226/234 or so. Lifts will vary depending on what the rest of your valvetrain consists of and the profiles chosen.

svnt442

EFI do you work for Erson or something? I used to work for Super shops when they owned Mallory and Erson back in the day and I remember calling Steve Tanzi (sp) for advise and direction when helping customers looking for cams and custom grinds.

I loved the way that JB100 idled. It had a nice lope, but not crazy radical. And low end torque was what that thing was made for. With the stall and the 2.56 posi that thing was a 300'-500' burn out MONSTER!! All I did was lift off the brake and stab the gas and the show was on. Ahhh to be young with a big block with an ample supply of free take off tires .

I wouldn't mind getting another one of those cams sometime in the future, but my rebuild is sometime off at the moment.

cutlassefi

I'm a dealer for Erson and yes Steve is still there, he runs it. I normally deal with Eric Bolander, he's second only to Steve. Eric has told me of the Super Shops days, lots of fun.
Erson has changed a few of the grinds but have really stayed in touch with what works. They have great profiles for the older stock headed stuff as you can attest too and also more modern profiles for aluminum headed/ported applications as well.
That JB100 is now a TQ50 ground on a tighter lobe sep but we can still do anything needed, all at the same price. They're great guys to work with. Glad you were happy with yours, look me up when you're ready again.

Warhead

It's good to see that you "reigned in" yourself.
For what you are doing, the J heads will be fine. The stock rockers will be fine, the non adjustable valvetrain will be fine. This will still make some great power, it just won't excite the kids when you say "stock".
If it was mine, I would put in larger intake valves, and not worry about the exhaust valves. We wasted ALOT of time chasing exhaust flow with absolutely NO return on it, 2.07, or 2.125 intakes in a set of .030" cut "J's" along with the pistons you have, a zero decked block, and a good hyd flat tappet cam will have an ecellent return on investment. Have the heat crossovers filled with aluminum, and the center bowls blended. You will need to run an electric choke, but the whole engine will run cooler, and make consistent power for a long time.
Save gas money, build the Q-jet. Fuel savings alone, will pay for that.
I can see you doubleing the power with these parts.

My Opinions.
Jim

crholds442

From what I've read the 1974 J head design has exhaust ports that are restricted down to 1 inch diameter. I have not opened the engine up to take a look at the heads. Will the engine still put out good torque at lower rpms with the untouched restricted exhaust ports? I'm inclined to leave the J heads alone and keep costs down if I can get the engine up and performing with a good Erson Cam Grind appropriate for the stock heads and increased compression to around 9.5 to 1. I am not going to use the stock manifold. I'll go with a Performer and a Edelbrock or Holley carb. The stock 74 quadrajet has fixed idle jets and is set up for emissions, which I don't need on a 69 Olds in this state.
Milling the J heads .030 and 0 decking the block all takes machine work and more dollars. What C.R. will I wind up if this is done to the heads and block? Head gasket thickness enters into the C.R. as well. I am not going to use high compression forged pistons, just forged pistons in the rebuild kit from Summit. Back to the cam grind: would there be any performance and wear benefit to going with a Erson roller cam, ground to maximize the set up with stock J heads? Is there a history here for doing this?
This engine already has what looks like full length headers into 3 inch collectors with oversize pipes to the back. Great comments and good things to think about.... Thanks Guys!!

svnt442

Again I refer you to my previous post. I had UNTOUCHED J heads on my 455. I ran a high 13 quarter mile with a 2.56 rear in the car. I could do 400'-500' burnouts at will. Is that enough low end for ya?

RAMBOW

if you don't have a source for head work, buy those Big Valve G heads that cutlassefi had for sale for $650... Thats a very good deal for fully rebuilt stock heads.

You'd easily spend that just trying to "fix" j heads.

67 Cutlass Freak

I have to agree with Rambow here. That's a pretty damn good deal. It's my opinion that you don't need a roller cam for what your looking to achieve. The roller set-up with cam, lifters, springs, rockers, push rods and guide plates will set you back close to $1000. Save your money and put it into quality machine work or bottom end upgrades. You might want to check into a lighter weight slightly higher compression piston. I would shoot for 10.5:1 compression. Should be streetable & run on pump gas. I also would recomend balancing the rotating assembly. J&S Machine sells a nice 5 main Halo for very reasonable $. Skip the straps. Cutlassefi can help you with choosing the correct cam for your application but you really need to fill in all the blanks about your engine, car weight, rear end ratio, performance goals and bottom line budget. If you really have your heart set on the roller set-up keep in mind you can always upgrade the heads at a later time and go with a larger cam as well. The cam is less money than the roller lifters I believe. You might also want to look into the Offenhauser Portosonic intake. I think it's probably the best mid-riser single plane intake on the market. Better port lay out than the Edelbrock Torker IMHO.

cutlassefi

10.5:1 is a bit much for the street with cast iron heads imo. However I do agree on the swapping of the roller for good machine work. Will a comparable roller out hp a flat tappet? More often than not yes, but it comes down to budget and personal preference.

What constitutes a high performance piston? Most would say it has to be forged, I would agree but there are some good hypereutectics out there as well. A lighter, stronger piston is always a good idea, I recommend the KB IC886, great piston, light, strong and with a cast head will give you about 10.0:1 with zero deck.

Depending on your anticipated/desired hp another option for an intake would be the old Holley Street Dominator, there are still some around.

Warhead

I pretty much agree with everything Mark is saying here.
A roller WILL make more power than a flat tappet, IF it has more lift, and it is ground to lift valves faster. This cam WILL cost more dough, but keep in mind you will have to buy more parts to work with that cam, that will add to costs. Lifters, push rods, rockers, springs, retainers, etc that you may not have to buy with a stocker type cam.
Machine work is #1 on the priority list.

I keep going back to an old Feb 99 article of Car Craft, had a 65 Cutlass with a 74 455 that ran 13.60's with a 3.08 non-posi. Stock 74 Q-jet, performer manifold, recurved HEI, X/Y exhaust manifolds (no headers).
The guy just kept working on the tune. Stock cam, 8.5:1.

If you do not want to run the Q-jet, that is fine. The idle jets just have caps or limiters on them, but they ARE adjustable.
If you don't want it, I'll paypal you $25 for it, as long as no one has ever messed with it.
Jim

Joel

I'm not an expert on Olds heads, but based on my experience with a couple sets of J heads I have worked on, there's nothing wrong with using J heads on a budget build. But I wouldn't put stock J heads on a dogsled! Because you can make a huge improvement on them for free in a few hours.
Here's a before pic of my '76 J heads. See those huge obstructions cast in all the way around, just above the valve seats?

feb22o8002.jpg

Just grind them away, be carefull not to hit the seats unless you plan to have the seats ground anyway. This has got to increase the opening by at least 50%! There is no reason not to spend a few hours doing it. I'm not a head porter, this one is just so obvious, anyone can do it. Here are the after ports:

feb22o8011.jpg

This will make a seat of the pants difference. Good luck! Joel

67 Cutlass Freak

Ok yeah that might be just a tad bit high on todays crappy gas. I think it might be hard to get that from off the shelf pistons anyway, without milling. I also have heard good things about the hypereutectic pistons for a reasonable alternative. I have ported a few sets of heads and will say, to do a complete job takes a lot of time and patience. Bigger is not always better. Here's some photos to give you an idea of what can be done to improve cast iron heads. I will say if your going to go all out with porting you should start off with better castings. "C" heads are everywhere and cheap. You can turn your "J" castings into flow master pieces. It will just take more grind time.

RAMBOW

wow, those photos are AWESOME!!!!

Saved them to my hdd to refrence when I do the porting on mine.

crholds442

Pictures and comments by Joel and 67 Cutlass Freak are great. I pulled my 455 and TH400 out of my 69 442 last weekend and I will open it up this weekend. I'll see if I can figure out if the engine is in original condition or not. I could not pull the engine and trans out without first dropping the full length headers down first. Such a very tight fit.... I guess I need to expect that is normal for all aftermarket headers. I sorta would like to grind on my J heads just for the experience. Joel's work looks like the first and easiest step and should be done if I go with the stock J heads. Are the restricted J head exhaust passageways a result of added cast iron, or has the waterjacket been reconfigured in this area, resulting in thin waterjacket walls? I don't think I have the equipment or the right heads to do the nice work that 67 Cutlass Freak did on those pictured heads. Thanks again.... any other ideas?

67 Cutlass Freak

I don't believe the water jackets are larger on th "J" heads but maybe you can find a junk one and do a cross section. The exhaust side isn't as important as the intake side IMHO. I think it's awesome your going to try to do a home port, but I will warn you that it's very time consuming and you really need to do your research before you dive in. As far as tools go, you don't need too much. On top of the list is a good compressor and an angle die grinder with a few carbide bits. The other option is to go with a good high quality electric grinder. Here's a shot of some of my porting tools-
CIMG3193-1.jpg

I'm going to give you some links to other threads that will help you with your research. Keep in mind there are also links in these links. Read up young Skywalker. You should consentrate your efforts on the areas that will net you the most performance increases for the least amount of effort.
http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic....ht=valve+angle

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...xhaust+divider

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...cation&start=0

crholds442

I took the block and J heads to my machinist today. He will zero deck the block among other things. What I found out from him today about my J heads is I need new valves, new cast iron valve guide inserts, and what really suprised me, the heads don't have hardned valve seats which is needed for unleaded fuel. These are 1974 J heads. Shouldn't they have been manufactured with hardned seats?. I have started porting one head and am amazed at how much cast iron I have removed in a short time ( 2hours last eve). With all the porting and machine work that these heads will require.... I'm beginning to think that the extra cost of the Edelbrock Performer Heads may be worth it. Also, they would be "value added" to the car instead of worked over "J" heads and the stigma around these heads.
In any case, my machinist with 33 years of experience rebuilding classic engines holds Erson cams in high regard and I have been talking to Cutlassefi about a special grind for my application. I'm sure he can come up with a setup compatible with Edelbrock heads. If I decide to go with them afterall.

RAMBOW

This would be the point where i would check to see if cutlassefi still has those G heads he had fully rebuilt for $650

If the J heads need everything, then i would not put anymore money into them- Look for a better set.

MDchanic

All US cars in 1974 had hardened valve seats (or valve seats that were inherently hard enough to resist valve recession with unleaded gas).

There may have been some made for boats or stationary engines that did not, but my guess would be that economies of scale would have required them all to be made the same way.

- Eric

citcapp

You need to find better cores. C, E, of G heads go for between 100 - 200 dollars for the big valve ones. Post where you live, most likely someone nearby has a set. I know John in Oregon does.Or by the G's from Mark as stated below. and save yourself some money

matt69olds

If the J heads need guides, valves, springs or other costly machine work then either better factory heads or Edelbrocks make more sense. The Edelbrock heads are easily a 50-60 horsepower bolt-on. With a solid short block (a flat tappet mild cam would be fine) and reasonable compression it should be a fun ride.

crholds442

I feel like GM cheated me on my '74 J heads by not putting in hardened valve seats. There is no way that cast iron in that head can take the punishment of higher rate valve springs and higher lift cams! I would have been perfectly happy to port out my J heads and get valves, springs and a Erson cam to match my application. The Edelbrock performer heads will go well with the Edelbrock Carb and Performer intake manifold that I already have on order. The initial layout of cash for the new heads will not seem too bad 4-5 years from now or if I sell the car. I have gone full circle on this whole thread about this "J" heads or not quest!! What opinions do you gents have about Edelbrock heads in comparison to C, E, G, etc. large valve heads, with the center exhaust divider built up, the ports polished, and the exhaust crossover blocked with aluminum??
I have learned so darn much with this discussion.... a great bunch of motor heads... I gotta say!!

MDchanic

I don't want to sound contrary or low-tech here, but why are you saying that these heads don't have hardened seats?
J heads were only used form 1973 to '76, and all cars in those years were required by the federal government to have hardened seats so that they could run on unleaded gasoline.

If you're thinking of trashing them anyway, then why not just port the heads, do minimal to no real machine work on them, get the cam and springs you want, and run them as-is while you slowly look around for your "perfect" set of heads, then, when the time comes, use the parts you've carefully acquired to rebuild the "right" way? At that time, you can check for valve recession and see whether the seats really were "hard enough." What's the worst that could happen? The seats recede? These aren't VW's, and they do not "swallow valves" with normal use.

Just my 2¢.

- Eric

citcapp

Olds did not used hardened insert seats on the J heads they hardened the area of the head itself

Red71

The J heads have what is called induction hardened seats.
that's why they don't have the replacement type of exhaust seat
you are probably use to seeing.

MDchanic

Yes, Pat, they're induction hardened.
The hardness is not quite the same as it would be with hardened inserts, but, as has been discussed ad infinitum on these boards, even the non-hardened heads do not tend to show signs of recession outside of extremely high mileage / high stress situations.

What is the problem with this guy staying in-budget, using the serviceable heads he's already got, with minimal additional work, and no thoughts of having them last 100,000 miles (hey, he's already got them, they're FREE), and having a fun, better-running car to drive while he learns more and does a slow, calm search for exactly the parts he wants to make his motor just right?

It seems this project is growing larger than it needs to.

- Eric

67 Cutlass Freak

From what I've heard, and read about, there is a bit of a misconception about hardened valve seats. Some old timers feel you don't really need them. I guess it really depends on your application and what your intended usage is. Cylinder head cores right now are plentiful. If your heads need guides that pretty much seals the deal, in my eyes, that you should look for another set. I currently have three sets of "C"s, one set of 3's,4's,4a's,8's,Ga's,5a's,7's. My machinist will do three angle valve job reusing stock springs and valves for less than $200. To resurface the intake and block mating surface adds a couple of bucks but it's well worth it. To give you an idea of time involved with porting, it took me close to 80 hours per set to do full blown port job on BB heads. Raising the roof on intake and exhaust, filling heat risers, welding dividers, bowl work, widening, tear dropping guides, removing bumps. It's a lot of work. I say go for it with the porting yourself but you really should start with some better heads. "C" casting, big valve head cores for $200 and start grinding. My best advice to you as a porter, set up a compfortable work station with good lighting, headphones, ample beer supply, minimul distractions and a but load of patience.

crholds442

Question, which of the large valve heads already have hardened seat inserts? I know that 1970 was the last year for high compression engines and leaded high octane fuel. So, many of the pre-1971 heads ( most probably did not have) may or may not of had hardened seats of any kind. If I buy a set of large valve heads I think they should come with hardened valve seat inserts. I'm going to have to watch my machinist carefully... he may be making business for himself! Yes, I've got a lot to learn, and the large block forum is really helping to speed up the process to make the best selection at this time... while I've got the car apart.
There is something else I'd like to know/learn: If you had a rich Uncle who had an extra set of completely worked over and ready large valve Olds heads, and a set of brand new Edelbrock RPM Performer heads, and he wanted to give you one or the other as a birthday present for your "project car"..... which one would YOU choose.... and why??

cutlassefi

Joe P. would probably know the answer to the first part better than me, but as far as the second part I'd go with the Edelbrocks, better combustion chamber, better exhaust ports and you can run higher compression ratios because they're aluminum. That'll give you more power and efficiency.
But you'll pay more for that as well, but imo for a mild street motor like your building, there's nothing wrong with a good set of big valve C's, G's or whatever.

crholds442

Do the pre 1971 high output Olds 455 engines have stouter connecting rods than the low compression engines after 1970? Not that it really matters with a mild engine rebuild using J heads. I'd just like to know at this point. I'll get with my machinist and see what he says about the induction hardened valve seats. I examined the seats a little more carefully and I really don't think there is much recession. This, in an original condition engine that needs a .040 over bore!. I'll see what it will actually cost me if I don't go with hardened inserts. Will I need to shave the heads to get close to 10:1 with a zero decked block and the TRW forged pistions? My machinist will probably know after decking the block ( he says GM blocks in general need a significant amount of decking work as compared to other manufacturers). Thanks again!!

cutlassefi

Don't take anything for granted, your machinist may or may not know what your compression will be. The compression distance of the pistons will also dictate how much needs to be taken off the deck. Some cheaper pistons are shorter.
But after calculating, a zero decked .040 over block with 80cc BBO heads and a typical head gasket will get you about 9.75:1 with the L2323F piston. Imo perfect for any street application. And it's high enough that if you wanted to put a bit of cam in it you'd have no problems.

Hope this helps.

crholds442

Thanks cutlassefi for the input. I know I am wandering all over the page with this engine rebuild...I've learned all sorts of things.... and I really appreciate all the input. The front clip is off and the car is in a frame shop for a major tear at the lower control arm rear bracket. I am determining how much rust and bondo lurks beneath the pretty red paint. I have to decide on the whole project.... how much do I put into it over all without going too much over what it will be worth for sale and for my own use/enjoyment. This is really a major rebuild project at this time with lots of variables.
I would like to do a frame off restoration.... with out killing myself or someone else. Decisions on the engine will come as parts come and as my machinist prices his work... thanks again everyone!

crholds442

I'M assembling the 74 455 engine. I went nuts and went Edelbrock heads and Performer intake with Cutlassefi's Erson roller cam and PBM lifters. These lifters are tall and will they interfere with the metal valley pan gasket these engines use? Can I turn the PBM lifter cross bar between lifter pairs facing the cylinder wall instead of the valley? I think the lifters will clear in this case. Also what push rod length will I need? I have an adjustable push rod so I'll figure this out... I just wanted to cross check.

I've been doing a frame off restoration with new rear gears and positrac and SSBC cross drilled rotors all around. The frame looks pretty with the POR 15. T-400 tranny has been rebuilt and I'll stick these on the frame pretty soon. I've been watching some very good olds conv rebuilds on this website.

matt69olds

Don't use the factory style "turkey tray" intake gasket. Use the Mr. Gasket 404 gasket, its about 15 bucks and can be ordered from Advance Auto, Autozone, etc. Use a aftermarket tray that bolts into the area under the intake to keep the hot oil from splashing onto the underside of the intake. You can probably fabricate something or order the tray from Mondello, Dick Miller, BTR, etc.

RAMBOW

Turkey tray is not needed when running the edelbrock heads because the exhaust crossover is blocked, so you don't have to worry about the oil baking on the bottom of the intake manifold.

Just run the gaskets edelbrock recommends for the intake and you'll be good.

crholds442

THANK GOD I DON'T NEED THAT @#***!! TURKEY TRAY. What Ben and Matt have said makes good sense. PBM does not have a user friendly/extensive website. I found my answer on the PBM rollers on a Chevy team website. The lifter crossbars MUST be installed facing the valley, not the cylinder walls.
I have not touched this engine for almost a year and I did document with pictures (not enough, though) and with liberal numbers of labeled zip lock bagged bolts(not enough bags) so it is slow going placing the original bolts. Soooo, I discovered I left out a circular oil splash guard off the front of the crankshaft after I bolted up the front plate, water pump, harmonic balancer. I figure my front crank seal will be well lubed now. I did install the bronze button on the end of the roller cam. Do I need to tear the front down to install the crank splash guard?? Better now than when it's in the car!!!! Gentlemen...thanks for the input.

cutlassefi

Glad you got it sorted out.
You don't need the oil deflector. In fact some double row chains will eat them up. You'll be fine without it.
As you mentioned it's been awhile since you bought the cam, what were the specs on that one?