max3ismyname

Hello, I recently posted a thread titled "FWD 455 Build," and in that thread, here are my build details:Original 68' 455 block .030 over -10.2:1 CR
original forged rods and N-crank
Aluminum Edelbrock Performer RPM Cylinder Heads - Milled 80thousandths
Comp Cams dual valve springs
Harland Sharp 1.6 Roller Rockers
Comp Cams Hi Tech pushrods
Custom Comp Cams hydraulic roller cam 39 degree
.574 .569 -tappet lift 274 282 - @ 108 224 230
Comp Cams Hydraulic Lifters
BTR Multi Hole Timing Set
BTR Roller Cam Bolt
Mondello bronze thrush washer
Edelbrock Torker Intake Manifold - port matched and milled .080
Comp Cams Nitrided Steel Distributor Gear
Summit Racing HEI
Cometic Head Gaskets .027
ARP Head Bolts
Mr. Gasket Intake Gaskets
True Dual 2.5" exhaust with Turbo mufflers dumped

Here's the thing....I got my Toro back today and it dyno'd at 229hp and 363ft lbs at the wheels. It actually feels SLOWER than it did. I've just spent over $6,000 on it and I am about to kill myself. Everything is fine as far as oil pressure, engine temp, fuel/air, vacuum, it's just got NO power. It does have the stock manifolds, and a rejetted/rebuilt 750cfm Q-jet. The builder thinks it's a combination of too low compression, not enough carb, and the need for headers.

But still, 229hp? WTF!? How can this be? The static cranking compression is 1400, and should be between 1650-1800 according to the builder. I am not an engine builder or even a 'handyman' type, so I can't really do too much about it unless I bring it back to the builder but after all the money i've spent I'm pretty tapped out. Anyone have any ideas as to what the hell is going on?

max

joe_padavano

A couple of things come to mind. First, if the 10.2:1 CR is actual based on measurements of your parts, then I wouldn't go any higher. You'll suffer from detonation. Second, the stock manifolds are killing you. You've done all this work to improve airflow only to constipate the whole motor with the manifolds. Even if you can adapt the motorhome manifolds, they are designed for low RPM torque and your build is aimed at high RPM HP. This shows the importance of matching ALL parts of a build. It's no surprise that the motor feels weaker than before. You've probably given up some bottom end and the manifolds are restricting the top end. This is probably compounded by the stock Toro final drive.

Is the cam installed straight up, or advanced or retarded? I assume it was degreed?

Finally, there's probably a lot of loss in the Toro driveline, so WHP numbers will probably be lower than you expect.

cutlassefi

I see one glaring mistake, cam is either too small for the intake or intake is too big for the cam, bad match either way. Cam is in at 108 or ground on a 108? Or both?

A roller in the neighborhood of 230 or on the intake on a 110 or 112 in at 106-108 should have worked fine.

Check out Panos' build and the dyno numbers that followed. Yours should have been similar, within 10% or so, you have less cam but better heads.

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ess-455-a.html

max3ismyname

OK, so this is all based on what I remember hearing as I honestly don't know what the hell any of it means But as I understand it, it was ground 108 and installed straight up. I also don't think that it was degreed. The package was put together by Bill Travato and my builder called him to verify he had installed everything correctly following the abysmal dyno run. He said that he uses the exact same set-up to make 480hp at the flywheel with a 950HP Holley (I know, $1,000 carb) and full length headers. I wasn't expecting miracles but 229whp is downright pathetic.

So I should focus on getting the one available header for my toro and a new carburetor then? Or do I need to swap out the port matched torker for a performer? Bill was very adamant on using the Torker over the Performer when he was putting this thing together. I understand the header bit, I will do that as $$ permits, but the carb needs to be swapped to at least an 850 right? Any idea how much difference these two things will make? Please show me some light at the end of this tunnel, I am disgusted with my situation.

I am planning on changing up the gearing in the future as well.

max

507OLDS

Keep the Torker.It is not going to make much of a difference switching to a performer anyway.I would do the headers 1st,then redyno.One step at a time,and do NOT change a bunch of varaibles at the same time,as you can get yourself lost.I would not do the carb just yet,but do make sure it is tuned correctly for that engine,& that all of your air-fuel ratios are good throughout the rpm range.

83hurstguy

Where's your timing curve at? Verify the distributor is advancing correctly?

Are you getting fuel to the thing? A stock fuel pump feeding a stock quadrajet is probably not going to work well on that combo at higher RPM. You did mention fuel/air was okay on the dyno...

That would be potential problem 3, IMO. The first two are easier to check now that everything is together.

bccan

I would start w/ the basics - What is the MEASURED compression ratio? Need to KNOW by it having been measured during mock up/assembly. Deck clearance, head gasket thickness/volume and chamber volume. .080" was milled off the heads - sounds like trying to make up for low compression height. The builder should have measured & recorded these values. If they don't know them you will be shooting in the dark to make nearly any diagnosis of low cranking compression & accordingly low power output unless you find a clearly retarded cam, stuck valve, secondaries not opening, etc.

Even Bill can only help you so much unless you know the numbers mentioned above. I'm ASSuming Bill didn't build engine or you probably wouldn't be asking these Q's - not trying to bust your *****, just saying the devil is in relatively small details that sometimes become big details - TRUE CR & cam timing for starters that may not have been thoroughly contemplated or checked. I hope it turns out to be some stupid oversight that won't take much to fix but looking @ the combo & that cranking pressure w/ a relatively small cam I'm worried there might be some foundation blocks out of place.

That combo, manifolds or not should be putting out a lot more power - my half assed internet engine builder intellect thinks there is 50-100hp missing. 25-40hp could be in the exhaust but there should be more power there even w/ manifolds IMO.

TripDeuces

Something is wrong there. I had a 1970 Toronado, with a Torker, ported cast iron 'E' heads (probably similar flow to those Ebrocks) and a flat tappet hydraulic that was 272 degrees (not at .050) 488 lift that put approximately 300 HP to the ground, not at the flywheel. Engine ran 14s in the Toronado and when I transplanted it into a 1970 Cutlass it ran 12.4. with headers. That was through stock Toro exhaust manifolds and 2 1/4 inch exhaust. So obviously my combination was much milder then yours. With the cam you have that Torker is probably a little aggressive. I'd think you'd have slightly more bottom end with the Performer. I think your biggest problem is you made an engine that's just not suited to a big heavy car like a Toronado. Although the cam isn't that 'big' it's borderline for such a big car. Do you have a higher stall converter in the car?
I'm usually not this opinionated but I've been down this road with a Toronado and thought I'd throw my two cents in. My opinion is that cam is just too big without gears, headers and a converter to use it. I know you wanted a 10 second Toronado but that's not gonna happen with that combo. Regardless of my opinion that engine is more then capable of putting out much more power then you are seeing. Did you do a compression test on it? What numbers are the cylinders showing. I'd try shooting for 185, you're probably near that now and if not that should be a red flag. Is the distributor curved properly? 36 degrees total all in by 3500-4000 would probably be good with initial around 10-12 degrees. Btw, I ran the stock QJet on my Toronado with just richened up main jets (+.003) and it ran perfect.

George

nonhog

I have no idea on your build but wish you luck.
As far as headers go you might want to talk with Stan.

http://stans-headers.com/

He's a bit south of you but as far as custom work goes he is the guy to talk to. If you decide not to run MH headers.

my 2 cents

max3ismyname

OK. I'm going back to the builder today and talking to him but this is what I know right now. The distributor is advancing correctly, the fuel/air is good, the Q-Jet is working perfectly with secondaries fully opening, the vacuum is good. Everything was measured before the build and my true CR should be about 10:1. The pistons were .042 in the hole so in order to make up for it we milled .080 off the heads and used .027 cometic head gaskets. We plugged the numbers into a few CR calculators post-build and came up with the same numbers (10:1) The timing is 36-37 degrees.

I just don't know what to do, I don't build engines or have any expertise in that area so I can't really do much on my own. I'll go back to him today (my headlight grilles are not getting vacuum) and see what he thinks that low cranking compression could be from aside from a miscalculated CR. It's just funny because we had this thing on a Dynojet and were tuning and seeing every little detail on the computer and everything was perfect. It runs GREAT. It's just slow as all hell.

max

BTW- Watched The Dark Half last night, that black Toro is baaaaad.

Oldsguy

I second Brian's recommendation to do one change at a time, whatever you end up doing.

507OLDS

What pistons are in that engine?Flat top or dish? My 507 has flat tops that are in the hole .045".My heads are 70cc,and my compression is 11:98:1. If you milled an Edelbrock head that far,it should be in the 60's,as far as cc's go,so to only have 10:1 after all of that,your piston must have a good-sized dish in it. I'm just trying to help figure this out. I saw that movie last night too.It was cool.
You do have a heavy car.Your total timing should be in at 3,000-3,300rpm.Put the lightest set of advance springs in the distributor,and let it advance itself.Unplug the vaccum line from the engine,& plug the port at the engine or intake,wherever your source is.

BlackGold

I don't think there's anything wrong with the combination Bill put together (though headers would definitely help). Once you figure this out, I think you'll be happy. Don't give up yet.

I still haven't seen a for-sure answer to perhaps the most important question: Was the cam "degreed" when installed? It is very important when installing an aftermarket cam and timing set that you verify it. You can't just line up the dots and hope it's right. If your builder did not degree the cam, then make him do it; he should know better.

Next question: How well do the ports line up with their respective manifolds? Was any attempt made at matching them?

If all of this checks out OK, then I suggest you bring the car to a different dyno shop to get a second opinion. Not that I'm doubting the dyno numbers; I'm suggesting the ignition and carburetion might be better tuned by someone else.

Erinyes

This reminds me of a co-worker who was building a convertible for the quarter mile track. Put a ton of money in it, and it ran well - but just like yours, it just wasn't making enough power. The shop we worked in had a dyno, and he had that ragtop in there every other day for weeks trying different stuff.

It finally turned out (as I recall - it's been twenty years or more) there just wasn't quite enough piston to cylinder wall clearance. Too tight by just a couple thousandths, or something. He ended up pulling the engine, honing the cylinders to proper spec, and then it ran like a bat out of hell.

gearheads78

Is the transmission and converter stock? Could it be you really are haveing transmission issues and you are not seeing what the motor is really making because you are blowing through the converter or having another other transmission issues?

max3ismyname

OK, to answer as many questions as I can...No, the cam was not degreed because the builder said the engine would have to have come out of the car, or would be very hard to do without doing so. So, he installed the cam straight up. He said he wondered about the degreeing being the problem but because the car idles so well, pulls vacuum so well (12-13") he doesn't see how 1-2 degrees of it being off could cause a 50-100hp difference. He believes that one of the piston rings may be unseated, or another problem with the bottom end causing a massive loss of compression. (thus explaining the 140 static cranking compression)

The tranny is stock, and so is the converter, but it should still feel better than it did even if those two components are hindering the true output right? Because as it stands, it feels almost exactly the same power wise, with the power band just being slightly higher in the rpm range. The intake manifold was port matched by Bill T. and my builder said it matched up 'perfectly.'

My pistons are dished, low compression pistons. They are most likely .030 OE replacements. I am heading back there on Tuesday to try an 850cfm carb to see what difference that makes. I'll mention using the lightest possible springs and letting the distributor time itself. Actually, I'm going to print out this entire post and have him read it to see if he gets any ideas from it. In the end, he said to redo the bottom end will cost me about $4,000 and that really sucks. If my problem does lie in the basement of the engine than the $6,500 I just spent is completely worthless until I can get ahold of another gigantic lump sum. At which point I'll have dumped over $13,000 into it and could have bought a different damn car.

max

sx455raidercelticfan

But as I understand it, it was ground 108 and installed straight up. I also don't think that it was degreed.

talk 2 the builder the cam has 2 be degreed 2 run correct!!! you can lose 50hp right there!!

you must get headers your choking it!! thats another 50hp

the carb should be fine if its tuned!! my 455 is 30 over, 10.1, ported stock intake, ported stock heads, 270h cam, w/z manifolds, and it has a rebuilt 1974 or 1976 olds carb i run 12.4s all day, your carb should be fine!!

what compression ratio is the cam rated for??? if it needs 12.1 and your motor is 10.2 your going 2 lose! ive seen many youngsters put 2 much cam in there car without compression and a stall converter and there cars get slower!! your power band must match up!!

im not sure how front wheel drive cars work but i know a rear wheel car with that motor would need a stall converter, do front wheel drive cars use stalls??

a torker intake has a higher rmp range than a performer so your motor has 2 rev higher 2 get into its range, olds motors are not hi rev motors like chevys!! so you motor is going 2 have 2 have headers 2 breath when your pushing it up in the higher rpm ranges,

cutlassefi

4K to redo the bottom end is ridiculous. Before I did that I'd pull it and dyno it by itself. That way you're taking other variables out of it and you can then have your builder check the cam timing.
If your compression is around 10.0:1 you're fine on the cam if degreed right, a 224/230 on a 108 is fine with 10.0:1 especially with a 455. I'd still double check the tranny.

The low cranking compression is bit of a concern. He said he installed it "straight up". At best he can only HOPE it's straight up. Straight up only means it was ground on a 108 lobe sep and then installed on a 108 intake centerline. My guess is he put it in on the "0" mark on the chain set. That means nothing, I've checked them in the past thay way and had the them be off over 10 degrees. THAT will make a difference I guarantee it. Any good builder ALWAYS checks that, period.

Bill's a great guy and an extremely accomplished engine builder but just an FYI, that combo on a desk top dyno with stock manifolds was only rated at about 363hp/485tq at the crank. Take into consideration a drivetrain loss of a 100hp and tq and you're not that far away from what you have. Even if you add headers and that still ain't 480 crank hp. Something is missing or all the info isn't correct.

TripDeuces

I wanted to point out I think the combination you have is fine as far as the engine goes. Your engine parts complement each other but not the transmission. You need more stall and probably more gear. You could get away with that in a Cutlass but not a car that weighs over two tons empty. My Toro was close to 4600 pounds empty. The tight piston thread made me think of another possibility. Do you have adequate main thrust bearing and rod side clearance? Was this the original engine that you just had rebuilt? If so those clearance should be fine. But here's another one. Did the rebuilder put the rods in the correct way so that the rod bearings clear the crank fillet and aren't on backwards? Or even a cap on backwards. That would tighten it up in a hurry. I also think that 4k to rebuild the bottom end is crazy.
I'm just trying to help here not tear this all down. I know you must be out of your mind atm with anger, emotional pain and a whole lot of other stuff. Just hang in there. There's nothing that can't be fixed.

George

firefrost gold

when they put it on the dyno did they take any air fuel ratio's ? what are you running for fuel pump? Is the tank clean and flowing as needed the combo you have sound hot and most of us on here would love to have . The other ? I have is you say 10. plus compression in one part the other you sate you have dished pistons did bill or your shop set the heads up for you ?? Did you play with any carb jets or ignition stuff during the dyno run? Did you see them dyno it.

firefrost gold

was the bottom end running in the car before the heads and cam were done on it? what type of a air cleaner are you using with hood clearance being a problem with that edelbrock intake? The spectra ram air set up might be a idea when funds come up If you are choking it out with a small filter ???

max3ismyname

OK, yes I was there when they dyno'd it. They rebuilt and rejetted the carb and the fuel/air was perfect. The guy who did the carb work/tune was a Q-Jet guru and picked up 20hp and 60ft lbs with some tuning and that's where we eventually left it. All the engine info was displayed on a computer screen and it was all good before they took it off.

I am using a very thin air cleaner with a deep dropdown base on a Torker that had the flanges shaved significantly. Also the hood looks like a ram air unit because we had to put spacers in the hinges to have room enough for the air cleaner to fit at all. Actually looks kind of cool, pictures soon. When they dyno'd it they had the air cleaner off completely so that wasn't the issue.

The bottom end was not done by this guy, it was done by the previous owner and was running/feeling fine before the top-end was done. It was a stock rebuild, and based on the good fuel pressure and running I can only assume he did a fair job. But you could probably ask him because I believe he's a member here, forget the screen name but he's from Bonney Lake, Washington. I'd love to talk to him but he's never responded to my posts

The fuel pump is bone stock, I'm not sure if the tank is clean but the fuel gage doesn't work I've never noticed anything negative about the gas that I get, no sputtering or roughness. I do have low compression dish pistons but the heads were shaved by my builder (not Bill) and we used .027 Cometic head gaskets to compensate. Bill did the calc's and he came up with a bit over 10:1 for my true CR with that set-up, and all CR calculators seem to indicate the same. It IS the original engine to the car, but as far as the other questions Trip, I just don't know. That's getting very technical for me, but they will be good questions for the builder, thank you.

I'm all out of money at this point, if anyone has an 850cfm carb they want to get rid of for cheap, let me know. I will bring this post to him on Tuesday so feel free to post more ideas for his and my benefit here. You guys all seem to be mentioning degreeing the cam. If the cam was not degreed correctly would it still idle well, and pull good vacuum? That's the builders' reason for not suspecting that at this point. Thanks for all the help guys, I'm excited to know what he gathers from all of this.

max

BIGJERR

Dished pistons with ebrock heads is not a 10 to 1 motor....but if BTR says its so it so,He knows his shyt......


A stock fuel pump will not feed this motor good enough..........

Start with a after market fuel pump. and go from there .........my .02........Jerr

sx455raidercelticfan

dont spend your money on a carb the 750 should be fine!! buy the headers 1st!!

if you know the exact model pistons you used please post

firefrost gold

what rpm did it make its numbers at ?

firefrost gold

Is the hei new to the car or is a hold over from when you got the car?

oldzy

I made a similar mistake, spent tons on the engine, but it ended up being slower than stock.

Only thing I never did change was the rear end GEARZ (2.73's). So I have to assume it was that.

MI455

that 108 lsa seems really tight for an olds motor

max3ismyname

You really think the fuel pump could be the culprit? Would be a fairly cheap fix... I don't know the exact pistons used, they were put in before I owned the car. It made the most power at 4200rpm, and the HEI was already on it before I got it. What does that 108 lobe separation tightness actually mean? My builder has mentioned this several times but I don't understand it. Could that be the issue?

I am now completely convinced this engine is, pardon my language, 'fucked.' It is so SLOW, it's actually embarrasing. To show someone my engine and tell them the amount I just poured into it and then when they ride in it, it's slower than a minivan. I am SO ANGRY. I am completely broke, and have a massive credit card bill to pay off for a year or more and a car that sounds like the devil and drives like a wheelbarrow. There is something horribly wrong with the engine, I just don't know what to do at this point, as they say 'the money is spent.' The only thing I have to say is, does anyone want to buy a 1968 Toronado?

max

71 Cutlass

Part of an engine build is degreeing the camshaft. If the knucklehead who did your motor didn't degree the cam, then he should take the motor out of the car and degree the cam, regardless of what else can be done to add power.

sx455raidercelticfan

i agree 100%!!! degreeing the cam is major!! thats a young mistake!!

like i said b4 i know 4 fact that if this set up was in a rear wheel drive car it would need a stall converter or it would be slow!!! do front whell drive cars use a stall converter???????? if so you need 1 or your going 2 be slow!!!

it might be something minor dont give up!! it could be stall!! it could be a combination of headers and stall!! if front wheel drive cars use converters than you need a stall!!!!!!!! a big cam needs a stall 2 get moving, ive seen this mistake many times with youngsters they put a big cam in there car without a stall and the car dosnt go any where!!

with all the olds motors ive built ive never used a high rpm cam, stall, or intake and they all run very very hard!!!! olds motors are not high rev motors like chevys!! if you build a olds motor like youd build a chevy motor its not going 2 run hard!! chevys like 2 rev in 3500-8000rpm range olds motors dont!!! a stock crank street/strip olds motor should have a power band from around 2200-6000rpm, your cam, stall, intake should all match!! olds motors are torque motors not high rev horse power motors!! you cant put a high rev top end on a low rev stock bottom end

sx455raidercelticfan

i just did some googling, front wheel drive toro's do use a converter and i looked up the specs of your cam it says your cam HAS 2 HAVE A 2800+ STALL CONVERTER and 9.5 compression with low gears!! thats alot!!!!!!!!! is your car a race car??? troque moves a car not horse power!!

im about 100% sure the reason your car is slow is because you have a race cam with a stock bottom end with no stall converter!!! i tell people all the time bigger is not allways better!! you dont need a big cam and high stall in a olds 455 to run hard, olds motors are torque monsters a street/strip cam and 2200 stall is all you need!!! the stroke will do the rest!!

cutlassefi

First off a 224/230 cam ain't a race cam. By all standards that's fairly mild for a big block anything. And you don't need a 2800 stall. Please don't take cam descriptions verbatim, they are general statements. Alot has to do with how a cam effects the running characteristics of any engine. All else being equal this same cam in a 307 won't behave the same as if it's in a 455.

Rule of thumb, when you tighten the lobe sep it will make more power earlier, more peaky. When you widen it less peaky, flatter torque curve. A Toro is heavy so in theory a tighter lobe sep isn't so bad, more power/tq earlier. However a Torker intake is not a lower end rpm intake, that makes it work against that cam a bit imo.

Also when you tighten the lobe sep (lower number) you "fool" the motor into thinking it has a bigger duration cam because of the increased overlap. And lift has less of a role in the powerband. More lift will typically give you a wider power band without the expense of losing low end tq. Having more duration won't. If you add it will be trade off, more duration raises the power curve much more than more lift will. Again a 224/230 cam isn't that big for a 10.0:1 455.

Also if you have the deep dish pistons I think they're 24cc. That coupled with a .027 gasket, .042 in the hole and shaved heads (65cc) makes about 10.0:1, or thereabouts.

I agree with the others. Your engine builder should contribute to the expense of pulling the motor to check cam timing although it can be done in the car, but it's a pain in the ***.

My recommendation? A different cam (one ground on a wider lobe sep and with more exhaust duration seeing as how you're using manifolds and not headers), a Performer Intake and a well tuned carb. But all that after you've exhausted all other possibilities. I still wouldn't overlook a tranny that may need rebuilding.

One other word of note, cams with tighter lobes seps will typically have lower cranking compression than ones ground on wider lob seps, hence your 140 cranking psi. Case in point my 350 has nearly the same spec hyd roller, 222/230 @ .050 but on a 112 not a 108 and in at 110. I have a measured compression ratio of 9.7:1 and my cranking compression is in the 175psi range.

BIGJERR

Fuel pump.......

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/olds550.html

Then see what happens.......If its still slow or lacking power go from there....It has got to be something simple,Timing,Cam degree,Carb issue etc.......there really no reason why that motor should not be a screamer......

cutlassefi

But if the fuel pump is weak or bad then you would think it would be starving the carb and making it run lean. He said his air/fuel was good. Not sure how this would have that much effect without showing up as a lean condition.

firefrost gold

How did they measure the egt ? I have only dyno snowmobiles so we drill and put a band clamp EGT probe in the header pipe or weld on a bung and it reads the temp to tell how lean you are running I will set up m H/O with a EGT or pyrometer gauge when I build it . There are some rich lean gauges you can get from jegs and others . Dad always ran them in his semi and when he turned up the pump and ran bigger turbo it saved him some holes in the pistions a few times pulling a steep grade. knowing when to say when . I would think if the tranny was weak it would not last in there with a healthy 455 . Wouldn't it show some funky numbers of high rpm and low numbers??

dc2x4drvr

My true 10:1 BB has 175# cranking compression, with a 230/236 cam on 108 center..

max3ismyname

The fuel/air was measured through a bung installed in my exhaust and was, when tuned, fine. I still think that 140 cranking compression is low. If one of my rings is unseated, or the piston/cylinder wall clearance is too tight, can these things be determined with the engine in the car, and if so, how much should I expect to pay for a proper diagnosis? Can either one of those conditions create low compression?

max

MI455

how big did you set your ring end gap?

442scotty

I might have missed it but I dont recall reading that the bottom end was done at all...Was at least a re-ring done? All I see is top end work.