455man

So I’m looking at building my ’72 Cutlass S. Daily driver unless its raining or snowing. I will take it to the track some. This will be a lengthy process but I’ve got some ideas down. I'm a single dad with 2 kids so I'm limited with my budget.

455 with E heads w/heat crossover welded shut
Edlebrock 750
Performer intake
HEI distributor
Cam .488/.506 lift, 110 lobe separation, duration@.050 221
9:1 compression. (wanting pump gas)
Headers into 2.5 in. exhaust
TH400 w/2200 stall
3.42 rear gears

Looking to lighten it up a little also:
Going with an aluminum water pump/tstat housing
Fiberglass ram air hood
I’d heard front disc brakes lighten the weight a little.
I’m looking for aluminum rear drum brakes.
Thoughts? Ideas?

f-85

Well sounds like a good start! I wouldnt worry about lightining it up at this point. Its not gonna make that much of a difference. Put the money into the brakes, motor, trans, and rear!

Run to Rund

Welding cast iron is very tricky. I wouldn't bother on a daily driver. I have filled heat risers with molten aluminum (old pistons) after preheating the heads to about 500-600 deg. With the small cam you are choosing, the build isn't radical enough to need filled heat risers (and they will be slow to warm up the intake in the winter). Remember that the early W30 and W31 cams were 232 deg. at .050" lift, and the big W30 cam was 244 deg.

455man

The heads were welded about 15yrs ago when I built the 455 the first time. It ran very cold in the winter and I did not have a choke. This time I'll go with a electric choke and a warmer thermostat. I'd heard the stock rockers could not handle much over a .500 cam so I was trying to stay under that. Also I'd heard to stay under 5000 RPM's with a stock crank. Which cam would produce more power:
Cam .488/.506 lift, 110 lobe separation, duration@.050 221
or
W30 .474/.474 lift, 110 lobe separation, duration@.050 244
the W31 seems like less power than the W30.

cutlassefi

You don't have enough compression for the second cam. What you have listed is a great start, maybe only change would be to a dual pattern cam. Olds motors respond well to that because of the especially poor flowing exhaust, another reason to weld the center divider on the heads to go along with the filled (or welded?) crossovers, helps scavenging, especially with headers.

Electric choke should help cold drivability. Stock crank is good to 6000 if balanced and clearanced correctly.

Good combo.

455man

I have welded the center divider on the exhaust side. So the lack of compression would not run well with the W30 cam? The first cam is a dual pattern with a larger exhaust side.
Thanks guys. Anymore suggestions are welcome. I want to plan it all out before starting to rebuild.

cutlassefi

You only listed 1 duration number for the first cam so I thought it was a single pattern.

67 Cutlass Freak

Good start but I would raise the bar a little myself. If the engine is still running & in the car, continue to enjoy it that way. Find another complete core engine for a couple hundred bucks and build that one up. I think 10:1 compression would be very streetable and run well on pump gas. Save your money and put it into the right components. Light weight pistons, the correct camshaft for all the other components and your goals. Edelbrock heads woud be a great addition. Don't limit your build because of any one single stock component such as the rockers, simply upgrade them to rollers.

Run to Rund

I've run more cam than that with 9:1 successfully. For daily use, the early W30 type with 232 deg. at .050" lift is good and makes power. The only problems with stock rockers are (1) you may have to grind the slot longer if they bottom out on the stands at full lift--I use a die grinder and carbide bur; (2) they aren't real durable with spring pressures over about 350 lb open. NHRA Stockers, however, run 500 lb open with them, just don't expect them to last forever.

507OLDS

If your existing heads are already done & ready,then I would use them.If they are cores,and still need a complete rebuild,you might want to get a price on the final job,then compare it to a set of Edelbrocks,but it sounds like you already have some work done to them and that's fine.
I would run 10:1 if you could.You won't have any issue with pump gas.I would get the shaft style rockers from Harland Sharp.They will bolt directly to your iron heads,without machining,and do not require guide plates or special pushrods.The Edelbrock carb is great for all-around dependability & drivability.I would stay with that.If you want to flatout fly,some type of Holley,or copy will have a better advantage there.The converter & gears will work great together.Just make sure the whole drivetrain is matched well.The aluminum rear drums are out there.More of the turbo Buick guys would know where to get them.As far as the front discs being lighter than drums,not really,but the stopping will improve.An all-glass OAI hood is about half the weight of a real OAI hood,and still considerably lighter than a stock steel flat hood.

cutlassefi

I agree with the rest, your build sounds good as is but you would benefit from increased compression and consequently more cam.

If you're really on a budget, you can keep the stock valvetrain, you can get cams that will work with the stock stuff. Spend your money on good machine work, You can put the best parts in it but if it wasn't machined correctly it won't do you any good.

Look for a set of L2323F psitons, I just sold a set for $225.00 with rings, new never run. With stock heads that'll give you about 9.75:1. A decent valve job on the heads, some new springs etc and you're there.

Run to Rund

I agree that more compression is desirable, if you can get it at a reasonable price. For example, if the deck is going to be surfaced, surface it enough that the pistons are close, perhaps 0.005-.010" down instead of the .025"+ that usually is what happens.

There are a lot of cams out there for reasonable prices in the size range of 225-232 deg. at .050" lift and around .48-.50 lift. Since Olds rockers don't end up quite 1.6 you will lose about .02" or so from the spec lift.

The Performer and Edelbrock carb are fine, but shop for good used stuff if you are on a budget, or use an iron intake and Qjet. The aluminum intake will save about 36-38 lb. even if it doesn't do much else. The aluminum water pump will only save 4-5 lb. and costs about $70 more than a good Carquest rebuilt stocker. I am mentioning these things since you seem to be on a budget.

Texas Jim

How much cam can you run w/ the stock valve trane in the 455? And only the appropriate (heavier) springs are needed to accomodate the bigger cam? Thanks in advance.

Texas Jim

The L2323F pistons say that w/ stock 80cc chambers the compression ratio is approx. 9.21:1.. You are saying it would be 9.75:1. Am I missing something? Are there 2 different L2323F pistons? I know you are up on this stuff. I'm just asking, as I also need some options f/ my 455 in the near future. Thanks again in advance.

cutlassefi

you're right Jim, closer to 9.25 with the pistons .025 in the hole. But if he has the block decked it'll be right about 9.75.

945 Swept
80 heads
10 gasket
18 dish
1053/108= 9.75

The stock valvetrain is more sensitive to lift than anything. Need to keep it around .500. You can use springs with 120 on the seat and 280-300 or so on the nose with no issues.

Texas Jim

Thanks so much, "Cutlassefi." You give some great info/advice.

cutlassefi

Thanks, I try. BTW a better piston would be the KB IC886 I believe, lighter, stronger and is .015 taller with 3cc less dish. That means you don't have to deck as much. Plus the light weight helps in the balancing.

Texas Jim

Looked them up, forged, flat w/ just valve reliefs. Thanks again.

455man

If you guys think I'll be ok with 10:1 compression and still run pump gas I'll do that. I like the extra hp from the compression. I just worried about pinging and detonation with lower octane fuel. Would 87 be ok? I dont expect gas prices to go down and I dont wanna go broke driving this car At $1500 I think the Aluminum heads are out of my price range. I'll look into pistons.
Good to know about the rockers. I already have the edlebrock and performer. Waterpump does sound expensive.

cutlassefi

Unless you have a whole lotta cam, with 10.0:1 you'll need 91 at least not 87 octane.

455man

That's what I was thinking. I guess I need to decide if I want to spend the extra $.20/gal. for gas or give up the extra hp. I'll be parking my v6 and putting a lot of miles on this car so I'm trying to get the best of both worlds...gas mileage and horsepower. The v6 will see my highway miles but I'll drive the Cutlass whenever I can.

cutlassefi

If you keep it around 9.25-9.5:1 with a moderate cam you might be able to run 89. Proper tuning will be that much more important.

455man

A little update on my build. I finally have money to start rebuilding my 455. The stock 350 in my Cutlass finally gave up. I was given a comp cam 280H by a friend that no longer has an Olds. .490 lift, 230 duration @.050, 110 lobe separation. I picked up some comp cams roller rockers cheap from a guy on craigslist. He just threw in the pushrods and the heads they were on cause he was too lazy to take them off. G or Ga heads I forget. Using my E heads.
After tearing it down it looks like I spun a rod bearing. Machinist is turning crank.

455man

I've been grinding a little on oil return holes on the block and heads. Forgot to mention the motor was frozen up so I spent some time getting it unstuck.

455man

Picked up a cheap toro oil pan that the guy had chromed. The chrome does nothing for me since this will not be a show car. We cut and welded in a piece so the hump does not hold oil up front. Welded in a baffle too so it's more like the big block oil pans. I still need to grind it up a little more.

455man

Here's where I've spent most of my time. On the heads. Ground down the AIR/EGR bumps, tear dropping the valve guides and cleaning them up some. Just doing some minor work. Didnt polish the combustion chamber but smoothed it some. Still considering putting in 2.07 intake valves.

455man

Gonna finish up the head work this week hopefully then take them to the machine shop. I need to see how far the block had to be bored anyway. Then get pistons.

RetroRanger

nice pics thanks for showing. im watching this thread I have a 455 w a spun bearing waiting for rebuild as well !!

455man

So the block had been bored .040 prior. .060 bore cleaned up the rust pits. I'll end up upgrading the cooling system. Found some pistons I thought were a good deal. KB277.

455man

Just pulled the old 350 out. Now it's time to clean up that nasty engine bay. Ugh.

oldcutlass

Looks like your moving right along.

cutlassefi

0 deck and 80cc heads you're at 9.0:1. I/m not sure I'd go below that, performance/efficiency really start to suffer.

455man

I guess it depends on the gasket I go with but with 15cc dish, 80cc heads, zero deck and .040 gasket shows 10.15:1 on the summit calculator. Is the calculator off? I was shooting for around 9.25:1.

chadman

I'm getting 10.2:1 on the calculator I use with a .040 gasket and zero deck. That will be pushing it on pump gas with that cam but it can be done. Pretty much what I have compression and duration wise.

455man

I'm not sure what the deck will be at this point but I figured we could adjust with thicker gaskets and maybe no milling. I'll be talking to my machinist tonight.

chadman

Setting your compression with gasket thickness really isn't a good way to do it. You can end up killing your squish which can be worse than the added compression as far as detonation goes.

cutlassefi

O.K. herein lies the problem.
You're telling us they're KB277's but I thought they were 132's. My bad.
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/p...5&RodLen=6.735

The 132 piston will give you 9.0:1 with the parameters I mentioned. They looked like 132's to me, sorry. Yes the KB277 will give you 10.0:1 or better. With the right setup you'll be fine though. What cam are you using?

Thanks.

455man

Comp Cams 280H. .490 lift 230@.050 110 lobe separation. The cam was given to me so I'm trying to make it work. I think I need to CC my heads to see where I'm at.

455man

Got my 2.07 stainless valves yesterday. My heads only had 2.00 valves. Anyone see any problems with not increasing the exhaust side valve size?

danthedirtguy

I suggest getting the exhaust done as well.....what goes in needs to get out