deltathunder

I have a lot swirling through my head right now on the subject so i will do my best to keep my thoughts organized and short, you don't want to hear me ramble because it is impossible to follow. Anyhow, I have just been thinking a lot lately because I now have a much nicer 84 delta 88 2 door than the one I have had for the last 6 years. I also have been trying to make strides toward actually throwing a mostly stock 455 in there just for fun, it is what I always wanted to do with my old delta but I always said nah not until I get that body work done, not until i get those floors in yada yada yada. Well while I was saying all that my friends were driving stock lt1s and buick 455s and 5.0s which would have been comparable to what I wanted. Now they are driving supercharged 383 lt1s built 406s and wont be long before a bad caddy 500 is in there too, so my point is this... as I try to read around for information on olds motors I always end up reading the same things, that olds motors are not good for high numbers. I like to think that that is not true and I understand that they are more expensive to build but some people say that above 500 hp they shred themselves even with proper precautions, i dont expect to have more than that anytime soon but i would like to plan something big. You'll never see me in a bbc driven olds, but it is tempting to consider an ls motor because the power comes easy and parts are plentiful. I guess what I'm saying is I will likely do a 455 for now but when i start building something what should it be? Another 455? A 350 dx with boost? A 6.0 done up in any flavor? In what power levels and cost levels do each of these options shine?

cutlassefi

The problem is in the available heads.
I did a 463 BB Olds with Edelbrocks, out of the box but with 2.125 intakes, 10.3:1, Torker, 870 Holley, Hyd roller, 234/240 at .050, .568/.580 lift, it made 455hp/510tq.
I did a 436 BBC on the same dyno, (402 block, .040 over with a 454 crank), with out of the box Edelbrock Performer RPM Oval port heads, Performer RPM intake, 770 Holley, 10.5:1, same hyd roller but with .619 lift. With a smaller carb and 25 cubic inches less than the Olds it made a lot more power, 515hp/540tq.

If you want big power with an Olds it can be done, you just either have to spend more on the heads or do forced induction.

oldcutlass

The actual cost of building a BBC vs a 455 is about equal. The difference with the Olds is you have to be more careful with tolerances and the lubrication. It is not unheard of to get 500+ hp out of an Olds. Make sure the machine shop you choose is both methodical and reputable.

380 Racer

Hmmmm 500 hp, my last couple SBs have exceeded 500 and lived for some time under hard abuse. My current engine is a bored and stroked DX, 425 cubes. Produces 730 HP with 576 ft lbs of torque. NA no boost or giggle gas. But.......it all costs money no matter what brand you build.

deltathunder

380 racer wow the numbers on that dx sounds pretty good! Looking at your name sig and comments i can only assume this was a race car, was that an all out race motor? Are numbers like that possible with a big block reliably? I know i'd be happy with 500 hp but I would like to keep my options open for something bigger.

ah64pilot

I made 500 HP on a stock bottom end (albeit reinforced and meticulously machined) and I didn't do anything special. If I had ported the heads and used aftermarket crank and rods and a little more block work I could comfortably go well into the 650 - 700 HP range. It's all in how much you want to spend and how long you want it to last.

deltathunder

Well I would feel comfortable doing any work I could. I have enough help lingering around that I would do any work I think I could do. That being said I would be willing to pay more/ wait longer while i save as long as I can expect a good gain. I also would like the motor to last a long while haha. I wouldnt be racing it a ton but definitely will see track time. I guess it all depends where I am at that point in my life. That is a big part of why I am asking what kind of power:dollar ratios you guys are seeing from 455s dxs and ls motors.

ah64pilot

I know of a place in Texas that is building a LS3 to 650HP N/A for about $13K. I am waiting on a bid from Nickens Racing Engines for a 700HP N/A LSX 427 or 454...haven't made up my mind yet. I'll let you know what they say.

On the Olds side, for about $13K you can build a $600HP N/A engine that will stand up to the abuse. These examples are all naturally aspirated, if you used a power adder you could make more power but then again, how much do you want to spend...

Do you mind me asking, what is your budget?

deltathunder

Well ah64pilot, its like i always say there isnt as much of a budget as there is an amount of time I would have to wait before having enough money, I am in more of a slow parts gathering kind of mindset. That is why I am always asking about things that I am not ready to make happen yet because I want to give myself a list and say this is what you need money for. I have a 350 coming together for my van once I get some machining done, then comes whatever olds motor i can find in good shape to replace the 307 as fast as I can THEN i will be planning out the big stuff for my olds. Are these 13k motors %100 built and assembled? honestly that would be on the higher edge of what I would want to pay, but whatever I end up with I was expecting around 10-13k i guess

380 Racer

You have to remember the old saying,"How fast do you want to go.......how deep is your pocketbook?"

Trust me, my engine was NOT cheap!!

cutlassefi

Here's another example of "not cheap". I'll bet this guy has well over 12K in this motor from Bill yet it only made 550hp;
http://highperformanceolds.com/phpbb...=3806&start=30

With all due respect I think some of you may be in lala land.
Nicks combo has an advantage in terms of developing hp, he can spin his small block way higher than a comparable big block. It's actually easier for Nick to make that hp number with his combo because in order to make hp you need to spin it higher.

Sans power adders, it takes a lot more $$$ to go from 500 to 600 than it does from 400 to 500, especially on a BBO. You'll run out of production style cylinder heads before that. That BBO listed above has potential, but it's already at 10.7:1, he might be able to go to 11.5:1 or so on pump but then it's race gas time. And additionally in order to achieve a higher hp number he'll then need to increase camshaft size, reducing low end power and drivability. I believe he mentions in there somewhere that he was trying to keep the street manners, hence the smaller cam, even with 496 cubes!

I think it'll cost a lot more than you think to reach your suggested goals.
Jmo.

Highwayman

The saying that I grew up with was ….. “There is no substitute for cubic inches and no substitute for cubic money.”

70Wcars

I agree that after market Heads will get you the most power from your Olds build. When set up properly, the big Olds will go 600 plus HP but as said not free

Both my race cars use somewhat non-standard heads, Rocket Racing on the 468 and Knowlton/Mondello on the 482. The 468 has been together for 4 seasons now...about 600 HP...the 482??? welll...it makes power...then breaks then makes power ...then breaks and ...you get the picture.

Money...time and patience...

Danny

380 Racer

Out of curiosity I checked my dyno sheet to see where my motor made 500 hp. Still don't know, the pull started at 5100 with 574 hp .

ah64pilot

Please tell me this was in reference to the OP...

I liked you before you made this post, now I'm just down right envious...lol! Don't count your money haha!

Anyway, the reason I ask about your budget was because most guys get on here and say they want to make the kind of power some of us have made. Even at a mere 500 HP I have $11K in my engine. Can you make 500 HP for less, yes...but not much less, and then you WILL break it, and spend more just to fix it. Out of the $11K, $1700 is the machine shop bill...the rest is parts as I did all the assembly if that gives you an idea.

I say you can make about a 600 HP BBO for around $13K but that is assuming you want to use a stock bottom end to it's maximum limit...in which case it's eventually going to break.

The reason the LS motors can get higher HP numbers is because for one, they spin a much higher RPM. Second, they are light years ahead of our Olds motors in head design. And lastly, there are so many aftermarket parts available the market is saturated and prices are relatively low. Couple all that with the fact that so many people have tweaked them, it makes them an affordable alternative to using a factory style motor.

If you're interested in the LS motors, Edelbrock just released a 720 HP 695 TQ crate motor you could check out. But again, you're in the $10K plus range

deltathunder

Ya I respect the ls motors for all those reasons but I am just trying to figure out where each motor gets better power for the money, even stock for stock the ls will have more kick but it will cost about 2k to 2500 more than getting an olds motor in there and that is without considering the work. I recall an article in car craft I believe that had a bunch of dmr stuff in a 455 that made somewhere in the 500 hp range for around 5k, now I cant say how reliable that motor was or even if I am giving the correct information but whether it was 5k or 10k into the motor I just am curious to know what the limits are for a bbo that is reliable with street manners and pump gas, because it almost seems like the motor cutlassefi posted about is the limit for the bbo. Although I am still intrigued by the dx is it the same cost to build?

ah64pilot

Have you ever heard the saying "there no replacement for displacement"? While displacement is the easiest way of getting power, it is not the only way. You can build a small block LS or a BBO, or a Olds Diesel block. Any one of these is going to cost you in the $10K range to reach 500HP naturally aspirated.

Sure you can build a stock 455 and spray the hell out of it, but it won't last. The cheapest way to get to 500 HP is to buy a BBC crate motor for around $9K...but that's cheating

380 Racer

Danny, have you had any major problems with your RR heads? I was forwarned about horrible things that were going to go wrong. None of those developed. I have been very pleased with mine.

70Wcars

Nick

The 468 has the RR Heads and I LOVE them and the way that car runs...the "new" car has the problems with Cyl heads...but I knew they were a very limited production and somewhat experimental..I can't be sure I did not cause the prob with the first break of the M/K heads, but can't explain the most recent issue yet.

Really like the way your car runs and leaves the line!!!

Danny

380 Racer

Thanks Danny.......I have always liked those post cars. Both of your cars run some very respectfull numbers . I talked with guys who had run both Edelbrocks and the RRs and the RRs won.

OK you guys talk about BB displacement. Why do you think mine is a 425? The best of both worlds (it has 2.5" mains) but also came with a price. The billit crank cost $3300. Oh ya, on my hood scoop it says:

Small Block Olds
with a Big Block
ATTITUDE

deltathunder

I have read some magazine articles and things like that about the ls motors and i have seen 500 hp with heads anc a cam, pretty wild stuff, but you could consider me a bit of a purist, though it may not sound like it. A low boost turbo will supposedly last with stock internals even... I am actually trying to make a deal on an lq4 with 74k on it right now. Some friends are trying to convince me otherwise, but I think its because he wants to do an ls in his olds and doesnt want to get beat to it.

hotrodpc

There is some good read and points made in this thread, so I won't feel like an idiot waking up a month old thread.



You've brought up the LS motor builds a couple times in comparison to BBO and cost. Of course I take no offense to that at all. I'll even agree the hp ratings are impressive on the LS Builds. I just want to point out to you, check the torque specs too. There's also be several noteable quotes quoted here. Let's remember this one from the Great Late Carrol Shelby, "Horsepower sells cars,torque wins races"

deltathunder

I agree completely , they are known for torque but the only thing I can't shake is how the ls will probably beat the bbo outright everytime in stock form or bolt ons and the olds only starts having a chance in a full build. Would still prefer that but I know I'll be missing that power until I could afford a full build

hotrodpc

That's not hard to shake at all. What is has to do with is electronics and consistancy. Also do keep in mind, most LS running vehicles are much lighter than the older Detroit Iron so that itself explains some of it. But, the LS even in the same type car, year, make, model and all, being of equal weight primarily and same wind drag etc what I'm speaking of will most likely spank the old Olds BBO or SBO whatever the case may be. Lets say the Olds BBO is putting out 400hp/450tq. The LS is putting out 380hp/430tq in the same vehicle. Which would win??? The LS will. So that's the part you can't shake huh??? Remember these ratings are max or peak measurements. The LS is going to be efficiently tuned from the second it leaves the line all the way thru to the end. The old school no electronics motor is tuned middle of the spectrum so it's only at it's peak efficiency for a short time not all the way thru from beginning to end. This is all things considered of course. A/F ratio, timing etc. For example with fuel injection, every cylinder can run identical, especially with direct injection. With a carbed intake, that can't be. It's impossible. You have different length runners to the cylinders, so not all cylinders can be identical. So just because PEAK hp/tq are higher, doesn't always mean it wins the race especially 1/4 or 1/8 mile. Picture in your mind, a hp scale. The old school motor hp scale probably looks like the shape of a cam lobe. It goes up to peak quick and falls down quick. The LS hp scale is probably more like a dome so it's staying in the upper portions of the peak scale much longer and falling off gradually. That's probably a cruddy example, but it is kinda how it works out.

About the same addage, how does a BBO 455 turning 5000rpm spank a BBO 425 turning 5200rpm and the 425 spins up faster cuz it has a bit shorter stroke. But, that's a whole other argument in itself. Some will claim the 425 will win that race cuz it spins up faster.

deltathunder

Hotrod, good information certainly. What I mean by I can't shake it is I know an olds motor is easier and more nostalgic but I'd be giving up power across the board. It just seems like cheap and easy are its only advantages

380 Racer

Think PRIDE!!

1965cutlassragtop

...

hotrodpc

I sure like his thinking about the heads. I've always thought the same thing but it really takes a pro IMO to do the heads as far as operating equipment and having the right tools like a flow bench for example for porting. Without that, you're pretty much throwing $ hit against the wall and hope it sticks as far as good performance. I hear of guys spending big money on aluminum heads and saying they ported them and they did this and... BS, I spend that kind of money on heads, they better perform great right out of the box and bolt on. Of course on that motor there, he hasn't said, or you haven't said what he said, what all was to done to the bottom end. I'll assure you, it's extensive. He's done much more than a couple oil restrictors

1965cutlassragtop

...

380 Racer

That all depends on how fast you want to go. If you want to go right out-of-the-box fast, then use out-of-the-box heads. Remember cheap isn't always best. From experience, go for the aluminum heads right off the bat because the irons will cost more in the long run.

hotrodpc

Oh, I'm not talking cheap. I was commenting about the fact OEM heads can also make alot of power. Me personally, if I am spending $2000 on a set of aluminum heads they better do something for me, and why should I have to work on them before I bolt them on? No doubt, there are reason for aluminum heads, and there are advantages too, cooler combustion chamber temp for example that you can not get in an Iron head, run higher compression on pump gas etc, so I'm not knocking aluminum heads although it sure seems like it huh? I've been told you can't get 500hp with OEM Olds BBO heads and I'll argue that all day long. Yes, you can. Most of us here are smart enough to know that I think. I'm also a bit more old fashioned and prefer to keep the Olds motor, an Olds motor. Not a Olds/Eddy or /ProComp or Brodix etc. Imagine what can be done to set of OEM Olds heads if you spent $2000 on them in leiu of Aluminum heads and still have work to do out of the box.

hotrodpc

Does sound like he obviously knows what he's talking about although alot of the things you mention are common knowledge to Olds gurus, like the cam bank angles, lifter bore sizes, what has a forged crank etc. Sooo, did you tell the guy about this forum? We can always use more knowledge. The more the merrier.

And what city/state are you and/or him in? When I get the appropriate funds set aside for my build, I'm not so sure I trust anyone around the OKC area. I'd like to talk to a good Olds machinist and get some price quotes for work so I can get a ball park budget.

ah64pilot

So is that why the engine in the picture is running Edelbrock heads? Cuz the cast iron are so much better, he wanted to save them for the "real" racers?

deltathunder

Olds pride is certainly something I have! Gm pride too I could have a BBC for a steal right now but I wouldn't want to do that. However I would do an ls because It's "corporate". The real issue is people getting me down sometimes talking about an expensive unreliable rep that olds motors have. If I keep with an olds motor I am into the idea of keeping worked olds heads rather than stock edelbrocks for the price. It's not like every speed shop around knows the ins and outs of olds heads so I don't know if trust just anyone. Anyone know a good place to go for head work in sw pa or a place o order heads from that does good consistent work? I'm not a career race kind of guy so the advantages of aluminum over cast is lost to the nstalgia and "art of the build" mentality. Some of you may be happy to hear that my current thought on the subject is to put a good running 455 In Then maybe do a dx... I saw some cool stuff on rop with some efi turbo dx block builds. That is way cool.

380 Racer

I had to chuckle when 65cutlassragtop said that his new best buddy telling about making all that HP, almost forgot to mention the blower......LOL.

deltathunder

What about caddy 500? Is that heresy? I'm having a hard time finding a nice 455 so my caddy big block fanatic buddy is trying to get me to pick up a cheap 500 to go through and throw in and he says build an olds motor while you drive the caddy. Thoughts?

1965cutlassragtop

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1965cutlassragtop

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VinMichael

...the motor pictured DOES have aluminum heads, HOWEVER, he wishes it didn't. cast iron heads that he has built FLOW BETTER and have NO HEAD GASKET PROBLEMS. when he bought the 69 pictured a few years back, it had the 455 w/ out of box Edelbrock heads already on it. he pulled the motor, rebuilt it the way he wanted, but decided (REGRETFULLY) to run the edelbrocks (since they were right there ready to go) instead of finding another set of olds heads and doing all the work. he went the easy way out, and wishes he didn't..

Ah yes, the coveted cast iron BBO cylinder head. I have a pair of these little gems sitting in my garage that I am willing to trade for those silly Edelbrocks. You know, I would love to see a fellow Olds owner escape the feeling of regret if I can help it.

380 Racer

I shouldn't even go there but...........I know of way too many guys running Edelbrocks with no head gasket problems ever. So what is your guy doing wrong?