1973olds98

I was watching 2 guys gagrage today on tv and they was showing and bolt on complete EFI system..Remove your stock carb and bolt on there unit which comes with a computer box and basically self programs itself...Has anyone ever tried thee units...

Allan R

Never seen a computer that programs itself. You catch the episode number? I'd like to see this for myself. I lack the tech knowledge about the product (that i don't even know the name of) but I do understand the FI is a much more efficient way to feed those cylinders. How long (real time) did it take them?

The Stickman

Sounds like a TBI type system. I know I have a Throttlebody that can either be used as just a throttlebody or as a TBI unit with 4 inectors installed. I am choosing to send off my intake(SBO) to have tdrilled out and bungs welded on with fuelrails installed then run a Megasquirt.
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jslabotsky

I think it's this one from FAST:
http://www.efisupply.com/fast_ez_efi.htm

TBI with wideband O2.

Looks like a slightly more sophisticated alternative to Holley's TBI. Does not appear to be upgradable to control timing. Limited to 550 HP per FAST web site.

Stickman, keep us posted on your Megasquirt install. It's not at the top of my priority list right now, but one of these days I'd like to try MS, then maybe forced induction.

cutlassefi

Yes it's from FAST. The self learning feature is from Fords EEC-IV. There is no spark, fan, or torque converter control and the bottom line is it's still a throttle body, meaning it will have a lot of the inherent flow/puddling issues that a carb would on the same manifold. Thats why you can't use it on anything making over about 550hp. You start to need a much bigger injector for that and it makes the problem worse. Remember you get almost as much benefit from the programmable spark side of EFI as you do the fuel side. This system is basically a stop gap or band aid.

Olds64

IMHO, unless you want EFI for the nostalgia or for show just go with a high quality carburetor and HEI distributor.

jslabotsky

How is it a band aid? I don't see how this would be used as a half-arsed way to cover up a problem, which is what I take the term "band aid" to mean. I'll agree with you in that, at this price point, it really should be able to control spark, fan and TC at a minimum.

Based purely on functionality, this system does offer some advantages over a carburetor. Excellent cold starting and warm-up. Better economy. Consistent performance. No adjustments. Fewer parts to wear and affect performance over time.

With all that said, the price is the deal breaker. A guy could have a Q-jet rebuilt several times over before spending what this setup costs. Unless I planned to put a ton of miles on the car it wouldn't be worth it to me.

If this system were priced at $999, they'd fly off the shelves. At an after-discount street price of $1,675-$2,050 it's just not a good value.

Olds64

You have a point about the price. I believe most of the things you mentioned can be acquired with a carburetor that is calibrated properly though. I doubt the mileage increase would be that much going to a TBI system.

jslabotsky

I'll agree that a properly tuned QJet can address most if not all of the drivability concerns. However, to perform at that level, consistently over time, requires a)carburetor expertise and b)regular maintenance.

OTOH closed-loop EFI will run exactly the same for years with zero maintenance, in all types of weather. Oh it may not run 100% optimal all the time like a carb or EFI that has been exhaustively tweaked and tuned. But I'm willing to bet it'd be much closer to ideal than the average guy is able to tune a QJet in his garage, with a lot less hassle.

I do want to be clear that I'm thinking in terms of a stock or mildly modified engine, which seems to be the intended use of EZ-EFI and similar systems.

Again, though, I concede that any gains are subtle enough that the expense wouldn't be worth it to most people. I'd rather put the extra $1K+ toward a new paint job.

85supreme

It's not as plug and play as the system you're all discussing but there's another option. You can purchase an EFI intake manifold with injectors and fuel rails. It comes with a computer and software to tune it. I'm sure some if not all of you have heard of it but just another suggestion...

cutlassefi

By band aid I mean as compared to a multiport. Yes it will give you better cold starts etc as you mentioned, but until you've experienced the diifference between a multiport, throttle body and having or not having spark control I'm pretty sure you'd agree with me.

Quite frankly I didn't realize it was that expensive. In simple terms then it's basically an electronic carburetor.

bigoldscruiser

The Mass-Air Flow system is multiport and is self programing but is quite a bit more expensive. Of course you get the whole enchalata including intake with bungs, properly sized injectors, distributor, coil, complete harness, etc. It raised my mileage from 15 mpg on high test to 20 mpg on regular. This is not significant unless you are putting on very many miles a year. I just did it to have something different. It will never pay for itself in my lifetime but it is quick starting in any weather and runs very well.

cutlassefi

You're right, the Mass Air systems work fine if your motor is only mildly modified. But if you have any amount of camshaft in it you're sunk and they don't control fans, converter and such without extra cost. Don't believe me, just ask the guys at Palm Beach Hotrods in my Accel video. They'll give you an earful.

jslabotsky

We get it - You really believe in your product. It's the best deal on the planet. Everything else is crap. Blah blah.

You make a legitimate point that people need to do their homework and understand the limitations of any system before jumping into something. But can we just accept that there are applications that don't require the full complement of bells and whistles and that other systems *might* suffice in those applications? Not everybody is building a race motor - or even an aggressive street motor.

jslabotsky

I'm with you on that. But I think we can agree an "electronic carburetor" is still a big step up in terms of consistent driveability and low maintenance. If the price were comparable to a carburetor - or within 50% of a good carburetor - I'd be more inclined to go that way. But if you're going to go broke, might as well go all-out and do the full deal.

And as negative as I may sound, you really have persuaded me the Accel system is very good. Too bad I can't afford it.

1973olds98

I didnt realize the huge cost in this system...Thats a paint job

captjim

I'll weigh in with my .02 on EFI/ vs carbs. Being almost 50 and a full time tech for a lot of those years, I got to work on many cars with both systems. EFI hands down for cold weather starting and driveability (and emissions, which is another reason they went with it). Mark is absolutely correct IMO that the benefits are not fully realized until you tie in timing and match it to the fuel curve. That's what gives you the nice lean mixture that makes FI so responsive and torquey. Keep in mind, too, that these technologies came along with advances in cylinder head and combustion chamber designs. Pop in a modern set up off an LS engine on an Olds with a big, slow burning chamber and it will not run the same.

The Q-jet is a sophisticated and reliable carb and rarely needs adjusting once set up correctly. IMO, a FI system is no less maintenance, the fuel pumps go out more often and you can't change one in a parking lot in 20 minutes like you can with a carb. The throttle bodies get carboned up and need servicing, injectors leak and get clogged, etc. Carburators get old and dirty and need rebuilding. I also agree with Mark that port fuel vs throttle body is apples and oranges, no comparison.

cutlassefi

I believe I said it will work fine if the mods are mild didn't I?

When you've done and experienced what I've had the pleasure of doing, then we can talk. And that relates to many different systems. And yes there are other good systems out there besides Accel.

Check out the newest issue of Pontiac Enthusiast Magazine. Just did a piece on a carb to EFI conversion on a 76 Bird.

jslabotsky

Yes, you did, then proceeded to explain how worthless it is.

Oh so now I'm not qualified to talk to you about it? Wow, sorry boss. I didn't realize I had to submit a resume.

You know, I'm not quite the dumbass you seem to think I am. I am familiar with all the reasons multiport with ignition control is way superior. You don't have to convince me or condescend to me. Really. I get it. Got it long before I came to CO, TYVM.

I think you and captjim are so bent on extoling the virtues of multiport you are overlooking the point I attempted to articulate. I will try one more time:

IMO, a system like EZ-EFI does have a place in the market but it would have to be priced a lot lower than it is today. Preferably within spitting distance of a good aftermarket carburetor. Priced as it is now, the guys who would want it can't afford it, and the guys who can afford it want better performance than TBI can offer.

OK, I am finished beating this horse. You may now have the last word and finish putting me in my place. Typical forum BS.

cutlassefi

[quote=jslabotsky;114321]Yes, you did, then proceeded to explain how worthless it is.

IMO, a system like EZ-EFI does have a place in the market but it would have to be priced a lot lower than it is today. Preferably within spitting distance of a good aftermarket carburetor. Priced as it is now, the guys who would want it can't afford it, and the guys who can afford it want better performance than TBI can offer.



Yes I did, for anything with any amount of camshaft, otherwise they're fine. Done a bunch of them (Mass Air) that just didn't work on anything with lower than normal idle vacuum withour major concessions.

Yes, EZ EFI does have a place on the market, and I think you hit the nail right on the head. Yes it's too expensive for most, and it doesn't have the features or capabilites others want and they can get for a few bucks more. Exactly my point, I guess I just didn't convey it well enough.

I don't mean to be condescending, but I run into too many people who have researched EFI and/or done 1 or 2 applications, and now all of a sudden they're experts. They're not, trust me. And even after doing over 20 different tunes/applications, a How-To DVD and magazine articles, I'm still learning something all the time, no question. I'm here to help.

captjim

"IMO, a system like EZ-EFI does have a place in the market but it would have to be priced a lot lower than it is today. Preferably within spitting distance of a good aftermarket carburetor. Priced as it is now, the guys who would want it can't afford it, and the guys who can afford it want better performance than TBI can offer."

I agree with that statement 100% As it is, the swap just is not really worth the cost, as you and others stated.

"I think you and captjim are so bent on extoling the virtues of multiport you are overlooking the point I attempted to articulate. I will try one more time:"

I am not bent on extolling the virtues, I just think is is better, but I never said that it was worth the cost of doing it. A properly set up port fuel system on an Olds engine would not be cheap, and would not be so much better than a dialed in carb as to justify the expense. IMO Too bad you can't grab a complete system from a V8 car from the boneyard and do a nice conversion. But, maybe you can and I just don't know about it.

The Stickman

I have thought about trying this myself. Afterall you could convert an HEI distributor and use the wiring harness, computer, off another GM engine then you would just need to adapt a TB to an intake aswell as having the bungs welded on.

Destructor

For years I drove a 72 Eldorado and a 71 Deville both with Q jets, I also rebuilt both carbs. They are not difficult to rebuild, just don't bend any of the rods or other adjustments other than idle screws and float level with a new float. In the middle of winter at 0 degrees these cars would fire up on the first turn and run fine, every few minutes the idle cam would step down another notch. The warm air intake is also critical for winter operations, and I kept the points ignitions. They ran better than my current Edle on my 70 Cutlass, not that my Cutlass runs bad but just not as well as my Q jets. The cost was about 20 bucks for rebuild kits and floats.

Olds64

Destructor, I agree 100%. A Q-jet is an excellent carburetor.

seansw-31

About two months ago I put an EZ-EFI on a '76 Corvette; ZZ4 crate motor w/hot cam kit, A/C, turbo 350, HEI, headers.

The owner of the car had been fighting with driveability issues, stinky exhaust, erratic idle, subpar performance etc with the Holley that came on the ZZ4. After installing the EZ-EFI, and a LOT of trial and error , the car runs fantastic. In the installation manual for the EZ-EFI, they say you MAY need to upgrade to breakerless and CD (MSD-type) igntion because the ECU requires a "clean" signal from the distributor. Long story short-I wasn't able to get the EFI system to work reliably with the "dirty" signal generated by the HEI and had to convert to a breakerless distributor and a CD box. This led to the factory tach not working which required another module to process the tach signal. What started out as a $2800 upgrade (incl labor) evolved into a nearly $3900 upgrade.

The owner of the Vette is very pleased anyway; the driveability is great in all conditions, mileage increased by 1.5 mpg, and the car pulls much harder than it did when it was carbureted.

1973olds98

3900,,,,damn

Oldsguy

Very interesting but way out of my price range, just can't help but think there are lots of people out there in the same boat.

cutlassefi

Exactly my point. And it still won't do spark timing, fan control, Torque converter lockup etc. It's still a throttle body system after all that. Why do you think it will only handle 600hp or less? Cuz you need bigger injectors for that and that's when the EFI part becomes less effective being the fact that you are now at the mercy of the manifold, fuel puddling and driveability issues become more likely just like with a carb. If you have a BBO you can buy an Accel or FAST XFI kit coupled with a PP manifold using an HEI and have multiport EFI for uinder $3000.00.

Glad the Corvette runs great but I'll bet it would run even better with a multiport system on it.

Or you can even get an Accel or Holley throttle body setup with wideband for less than $2400.00 that will do virtually everything the EZ does and more like I mentioned above. And that's about the same price as the EZ-EFI "Master" kit. The only difference being they're not self learning like the EZ system. But with the wideband tuning is a snap.

Look at the new Hot Rod mag, they just did a feature on it. Even in there it says "you can't do fine tuning with the hand held programmer". Sooo where are the real advantages to this system for the money? I fail to see any. Remember FAST is owned by Comp, is there a better marketing company on the planet than them? Not in my opinion.

yammiman

cutlassefi - I have a 67 Nova with a 383 stroker motor, MSD 6A, MSD distributor, and a 700R4 transmission that is my cruiser car - I want to put an EFI system of some kind on it, and this system caught my eye - are you saying there is a system out there for less than the $1850 base price of this unit? - the TB Accel's I have found start at $2250 and they have to be programmed - the FAST XFI is a total system and starts at $3850 - am I missing something?

cutlassefi

The EZ EFI according to Hot Rod is $2247 for the sytem with a pump. The $1850 is the base system as you described, no pump etc. You'll need one, can't use the pump from your carb setup.

Depending on your hp level, the Accel TBI would be about $2500.00 and change for a base kit with a wideband. I'll load a base program into it to get you started. The difference between that and the EZ EFI? The Accel datalogs, does the spark curve as well, just as infinitely adjustable as the fuel curve, big plus!! It'll lock up your converter on that 700R4 when you want it too. With additional wiring it will power 2 cooling fans independently and shut off your A/C compressor when you put your foot in it. Plus it will drive better than the EZ, I guarantee it. Per the Hot Rod article, "you can't fine tune the EZ with the hand held programmer". Again with a good wideband the Accel and others aren't that hard to tune, honest.

You decide.

66ninetyeightls

Simple Digital or Megasquirt all the way. Far cheaper than these systems and they are completely configurable.

http://sdsefi.com/

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

yammiman

cutlassefi - couple more questions - so I can run a standard electric pump and regulator with the Accel and not the EZ? - it will adjust the spark curve on my current MSD set up without adding or changing anything? - I assume it turns the fans on and off depending on the engine temp?

66ninetyeightis - doesen't the standard Simple Digital 8F system require a TB?

cutlassefi

No all EFI's use a higher pressure pump. Gotta use one with this system as well.

Yes, lock your cirrent advance mechanisms on your MSD and the Accel will control it from there.

Yes, it will turn on 2 fans, at the same time or independently ar different temps or the same temp. If you hook up the A/C feature it will turn one on when you kick on your A/C. Plus with the A/C feature you can program it to adjust the IAC in harmony with the activation of the A/C clutch immediately, no lag. Makes it nearly seemless when you kick it on, just like the new stuff.

Megasuirt is O.K. too. But be careful, compare apples to apples. An assembled Megasquirt with harness and like features is almost the same price. But like alot of the others, doesn't have the transient fueling tables the Accel does. That's what will make it drive better. Don't believe me, download the software and view it for yourself.

66ninetyeightls

Same as every gasoline power engine in the word. A carburetor is just another form of TB.

This is a good one. Please explain what a "Transient" fuel table is & why you would need one?

507OLDS

Try a FAST XFI system.By the time you get that whole thing,& a fuel system,you will be tipping towards $5,000.00. It is really somewhat overkill for a mild,naturally-aspirated engine,but has infinite tuning capabilities.You will need to tune it yourself,so having the ability to manipulate a computer is key.I am fortunate to have access to a chassis dyno less than 1 mile from my house.
Something like that EZ-EFI is enough to say you have EFI,but there are other EFI systems that can do more.The EZ set-up has 4 injectors built into the throttle body,so the computer is actually controlling 4 injectors.That is another reason why it is limited to 550HP.If you just have a daily driver/cruiser,I would think you could get a better system that you could also grow into in the future,if you have plans on making big power.

cutlassefi

Should I take this as sarcasm? A transient fueling table is a fueling table that effects any change in throttle position and/or load and RPM. In otherwords DRIVING the vehicle. Do you think you might need these? Probably huh? Accel has 8 different tables that effect this. How many does Megaquirt have? FAST? They don't have 8, look for yourself. That's why I said the Accel will DRIVE better than anything in this price range. Does the Megasquirt have multiple idle stategies as well? I could go on and on. As I said, as far as driving the vehicle the Accel has more features, again download the software and look for yourself.

As far as an XFI, even though it doesn't have the transient tables Accel does, not a bad choice either. Has some features the Accel doesn't but none that effect driving quality. But you can get a complete Accel Multiport kit for a SBC for about $4000.00, and about the same for a BBO, not $5000.00.

yammiman

...Same as every gasoline power engine in the word. A carburetor is just another form of TB...

My point of that question was that in addition to the 8F system at $1990, one would still need a TB, pump, and regulator - correct me if I'm wrong, but that would put that system around $3000+ by time you were done - I'm just looking for the best bang for my buck!!

507OLDS

If it's for a SBC,then you still need an intake for an Olds.You have to look at the whole cost,start to finish.An intake set-up will cost anywhere from $400.00 to $800.00+,depending on what intake you get,& it you need to machine it for the bungs & rails. Either way,you have to be serious about converting to EFI,due to the cost.Yesmyou can get a lot of carbs for $4k.One for every day of the week.

mugzilla

I can get a '77 jag xjs for $500 w/ rebuilt engine ...

I was thinking if I got rid of the Lucas injector control I could actually drive this beasty around ...

It is multi-port ...

68conv455

Hot Rod Mag. Just came yesterday.
FAST system install.
$2200 complete