Engine is 1965 Olds 400, fully rebuilt, 60 over, roller rockers, cam specs in picture, C heads, Quick Fuel 750 vacuum secondary carb, MSD pro billet distributor and 6AL box.

I inherited the car as an empty shell pretty much. From the end of June until now I’ve chipped away at it and today was finally the day.

Primed the oil pump with a drill, primed the fuel system, eyeballed timing at around 10 deg. First two cranks didn’t result in anything. Decided to advance timing and she fired up. I immediately brought the RPM up to 2k to break in the cam. She was running OK but not great. Good enough to run about 10 mins at varying RPM 1500-2500 before she kinda got hot...210 on the gauge. I read a lot about air bubbles and figured that was the cause. Shut it off, let it cool. Found a few loose plug wires and fired it up again, seemed to run better. Did the rest of the break in and then decided check timing. I was stunned to see it at like 35 deg at around 800-1k RPM. Retarding the timing would sink the RPM and she would stall anywhere near 20 degrees or less. Also noted I have no power brakes. On the factory vacuum gauge it was in the “power range” at idle. Like 8 or so.

I tried to back it out of the driveway and it did not like being under any type of load, so I pushed it back in the garage and here it sits. It starts at the click of the key but something is just not right.

I’m sure I have a combination of issues.

I’ve read that a vacuum secondary carb may not be great for the car, especially with the manual trans.

I’ve read that I could potentially have a vacuum leak somewhere. I sprayed ether around the brake booster fitting and nothing changed. Factory vacuum gauge is the only other accessory using vacuum. Have a PCV valve on the pass side valve cover and a breather on the other. Everything else is plugged.

I’ve read that the balancer marks could be off if the balancer spun. It’s an aftermarket balancer with timing marks milled into it.

I’ve read that there may be more serious problems too, like something that went wrong with the break in. I am using Amsoil break in oil, high in zinc. A few weeks ago I also pulled the intake and doused the cam in more assembly grease and confirmed the push rods were spinning, just in case. I am really paranoid about cams as you can see.

Any thoughts? I attached a video of it running. Seemed a bit rough but not sure if it’s just the nature of the cam or something more.






Video:


Thanks for the help. It was my dad’s car and I’m trying to make him proud.

 

Go back and double check the spark plug wires are plugged in the distributor cap in the right order. Then verify they go to the correct spark plug. Then find TDC on the compression stroke for cylinder #1. Check to see where the timing mark is on the harmonic balancer.

 

Early vs. late timing tabs put zero different places, and must be matched with the damper chosen. If the engine is a 1965 B block, it has 45 degree lifter angle not 39 degree as 66-7 E blocks and later like 455s.

 

Thanks, just triple checked wires, they are correct and in order. Will have to confirm if TDC matches the mark on the balancer. I have a piston stop tool somewhere.

When I first set the distributor I want to say it matched but I am second guessing after hearing this “B” block has different timing marks. If it was a bit off I might not have noticed. This is what I am working with.





From what I can gather, this is the balancer he put on, which only fits late 400 according to Jegs.

https://www.jegs.com/i/Professional+...BoCJXUQAvD_BwE


Might be onto something. I guess if this is the problem, I’d be left either finding true TDC and relabeling what I have, or just replacing the thing with an OEM part if I can find one?

 

Might be a 39 deg cam check. as the block is a 45 deg. cam

 

Aside from the things mentioned above, you said you pulled the intake weeks ago. Are you sure you got it sealed correctly after that, as in using a new gasket?

 

Yup, I didn’t use the turkey tray though, just normal gaskets. Added silicone around the water ports and aviation sealant on the intake ports.

 

Any documentation to show the cam is a 45 degree profile?

 

Darn, that’s not what I wanted to hear. Any way to find out? I have a copy of the cam card but there’s nothing specified about the bank angle. I would assume dad ordered it correctly but looking at the symptoms of the wrong CBA, it seems like it might be possible. Somewhat erratic running below 2000 RPM, etc.

 

In addition to verifying that you have the correct cam, and that the timing set is indexed correctly, be SURE the TDC mark is verified with a piston stop. You have the early timing tab and an aftermarket balancer that is designed for the later tab. They are slightly different. Back to basics - sorry there is no easy answer here. Did you assemble the motor, or did you get it assembled?

 

I see your cam card. That is the cam I have in my 70 W30 455. Not sure, but I didn't think they made that cam in 45, and 39 degree? I may be wrong will try to find my old book and look it up.

 

I was wrong about that cam being the same as I have, mine is 110 lobe center , and yours say 108, noy sure that make a difference?

 

Tighter lobe sep normally just brings the power in sooner.
If this has C heads then I would think they would’ve had to have the pushrod holes machined for a 45* block? Might want to check a rocker/pushrod or two for interference as well.

 

It was done by a local engine builder. I am going to try to unearth some of his paperwork/ invoices tonight to gain more insights. Problem is much of this work was done 20 years ago.

 

Thanks, that’s another thing I wasn’t sure of. He did have the heads worked on but not sure if they did anything beyond a valve job. I pulled a valve cover and didn’t see any obvious problems. Pushrods seem clean and move free. There wasn’t any nasty sounds from the motor.

I guess I will know more when I pull the intake. Seems unavoidable that I will need to take this thing half apart. And if so, I may just replace the cam anyway if I can find one that might be a better fit.

 

Why does #2 and #3 rocker arm stud look like they have more threads showing ? Could they be mis-adjusted ?

 

When you pull the intake, throw away that goofy Offy intake and get a proper intake.

 

How much lifter preload are you running?

Also, are you checking the timing with the vacuum advance disconnected?

 

While those are obviously important, they are second order as compared to ensuring the cam is correct for this block and the timing marks are indexed at TDC. Those things need to be done first.

 

Distributor is mechanical advance. Offy intake was just a place holder. Want a performer but budget was thin and this thing is still not done dinging me I guess.

Just rummaged through a ton of receipts from the early 2000s. Invoice for heads shows just the usual valve job and mill. Is it possible this engine somehow does NOT have a 45 degree bank angle? Otherwise, would these heads ever work unmodified on this engine? It seems like if the pushrod holes were the wrong size or angle, something would have eaten itself alive in the 30 mins I ran it, but I guess I don’t know what I’m looking for.

Pic is from a few weeks ago when I had the intake off if it helps. Haven’t had a chance to pull it again or check TDC.

 

The block casting number confirms it is a 45 degree CBA.

Any chance you found a receipt with the camshaft on it?

 

That balancer requires an aftermarket pointer for a 6.5 in dampner. The original timing tab is way off. Even using 68 to 72 pointer it's 11 degrees off.

 

I had the same problem years ago I put a 39 degree cam in a 1965 425 with a 45 degree cba car ran like cramp had no power I have c heads on it have had no issues with the pushrod holes

 

No such luck.

 

You are totally right...just did a quick check...0 on the pointer is roughly 20-25 on the balancer.

So quick math to compensate...when it ran the best and I read 35 degrees, it was actually 10-15. But I really played around all over that range...could not get any kind of decent idle. I guess it may again point to an incorrect cam.

 

Good to know, thanks.

 

Once you get the TDC marks correct you should be able to check the cam pretty easily without doing a lot of work. Just pull the valve cover and watch the intake pushrod for the number one cylinder. Slowly turn the engine by hand and when you see the number 1 intake pushrod just starting to move look and see where the timing mark is. Looking at the cam card it should be fairly close to 10 degrees before tdc. If its way off then it will be time to put a degree wheel on it.

Am I reading correct that it is a mechanical advance only distributor ? If so that might be a lot of your problem.

 

Actually, this will only tell you if the cam is indexed properly for the No. 1 cylinder. You need to do this with an intake lobe from each bank to determine if the cam matches the block. I'd check No 1 and No 6, for example. If one is indexed correctly and the other is off by, oh, say 12 degrees, well, guess what...

 

Good point if they actually degreed it in on #1 ....... didnt think of that possibility

 

Just to put a bow around this...forgot to post earlier in the week...I found the original yellow Engle box for the cam in the shed. It was just marked “olds” by the factory, no specific bank angle. That was enough to pretty much condemn it, but I trailered the car to my buddy’s shop where we have more room. We found true TDC and degreed the cam. It was like 5-7 degrees out in each bank, one retarded, one advanced. Forgot which side was which but it doesn’t matter.

I guess that was a predictable result, but I sure learned a lot in the process, never did one before. Very grateful for a sharp friend (a Chevy guy but I can let that ride). Also appreciate all of you who offered your insights...I don’t even want to think about how long this crap would have taken me to discover otherwise.

Have a new Performer intake in the pile of parts to go back in. I like the retro look and appeal of the Offy but it’s flat as a pancake and very basic compared to the Performer!

Just need to locate an appropriate cam and hopefully will hit the road in the fall and running better than new.

 

I can help in the cam dept if needed.