Eddie Hansen

Well finally! I have made some kind of progress not much, but some!!

So I thought I would let you know the progress on my 455 build, and also wanted to get some more thoughts.

I got the motor down to the machine shop, it was cleaned, inspected for cracks, disassembled and everything looks good!
It is an F1 Block, nodular crank, had a very little ridge, but has been sitting forever in my garage so It was decided it should be bored .030

I am getting forged pistons and asked the CR to be about 9.5. (he originally mentioned 8.5 to 9) I have decided to upgrade the rods to "Eagle" type H beam rods even though they are made in China, the price is just too good to pass up it will come with ARP bolts. and the pistons will now be full floating I guess this is a good thing LOL... Has anyone had experience with these? I know it is overkill but they looked excellent, came with ARP bolts and the price was right.

I mentioned before he is installing the oil restrictors, and I have decided to go with a Milodon oil pan # 30765. I called Milodon and they said it holds 5 qts plus the filter and looks pretty stock as opposed to their street pan which will hold 7 qts plus the filter but will hang down 1 inch more. Do you think 6 qts should be fine? I am not racing this thing. But since I was using the hv pump didn’t want to suck the stock pan dry. I had originally thought I would buy a Toro Pan, but because a toro is a front wheel drive car, even though the pan holds 6 qts it is the wrong shape on the bottom to benefit oil flow ( 2 humps in the pan) Has anyone used this Milodan Pan? I will paint it the same as the motor so it looks stock.

I need some advice for a harmonic balancer, I have been reading here about the dorman and some others some folks say the dorman is a slip fit, others say it should be a little more snug? any thoughts? I am not looking for a full race damper, just a good quality replacement with maybe a little more degreeing.

I am using C heads, which had the small valves, I asked for the egr bumps to be removed and the passages cleaned up a little. I am getting new valves hardened seats ,we are putting in the 2.07's and new bronze guides, I am also having studs installed for roller tipped rockers, more for adjustablility later on.
Anybody have any suggestions on make for the rollers rockers? I want to use stock valve covers by the way.

I am using the melling hv22 oil pump and will order the corresponding pickup from Milodon for that pan.

The crank has now been drilled for the 4 speed, and he drilled it for the Pontiac bearing which is a ball bearing type instead of a bushing, I asked for the crank to be cross drilled and he only had to cross drill 2 journals ( the others were already cross drilled ).The crank will be cut .010

Timing chains any suggestions, I know roller but do I need the “premium” double roller?

I asked before but any cam suggestions, this is a street car, 3.08 gears, posi olds “12” bolt , edelbrock performer manifold, stock q-jet carb, 4 speed, power brakes? w/z manifolds ( no headers), stockfish size exhaust ( 2 1/4-2 1/2 pipes).

As far as the Ignition goes will the petronix upgrade be worth it?, I have an accell blue print series distributor ( new) or do I just get the damn HEI! Will there be any clearance issues with the firewall? air cleaner etc ?

I guess that will be enough for now, my little pea brain can only handle so much info, sorry for all the questions, and I have been researching here for answers but there seems to be so many different answers to the same questions thought I would throw them out for some fresh answers with all the new changing technologies we are getting.

J-(Chicago)

Just be aware, that nothing is perfect. Even brand new, you may have to have the brand new rods resized and set to perfect spec. You will have to measure all of your brand new rods and polish your crank accordingly to get the desired clearances.

I use the 7 qt pan, and just put 5 quarts in it. The one you are speaking of is more or less a stock replacement.
A stock replacement balancer should be fine since you are not racing, in my opinion.

Also, my opinion on the heads: The egr bumps won't make a huge difference, but biasing the flow toward the valves will. You don't need new seats if your old ones can be cut for the bigger valves. The valve job, cam selection, and compression ratio is the key to more horsies.

I'll come back to this later on tonight.

Eddie Hansen

Thanks J,

Don't I need hardened seats for Unleaded fuel?
the machine shop is doing the assembly, he seems very very meticulous.

as for the oil pan, yes it is a stock type but the stock pan holds 4 quarts plus filter, this will hold 5 so i gain a quart, and i do prefer to keep the motor as stock looking as I can.

cutlassefi

[quote=J-(Chicago);145207]Just be aware, that nothing is perfect. Even brand new, you may have to have the brand new rods resized and set to perfect spec. You will have to measure all of your brand new rods and polish your crank accordingly to get the desired clearances.


I agree and disagree. You definitely have to check the rods, chances are they'll need work.

But I disagree on the rest. Have the rods and main saddles done. Measure everything, then have the crank ground to get the clearance you want. You said it's being ground .010/.010 anyway. You might need to grind it .011/.011 or .009/.009, you don't know yet. Don't grind it and then polish it for the clearance. The journals won't be even. Excessive polishing tends to favor the center of the journal, too hard to get the same dimension all the way across.

dc2x4drvr

What cutlassefi said x 2....Comp Cams roller rockers fit under stock valve covers, don't order push rods till you measure with a push rod length checker...let us know how it's goin'

J-(Chicago)

CutlassFI is correct. measure everything first, then have the crank, caps, and rods modified to where they need to be. I said polish, but that's only for the finishing touch. Sorry for being misleading. I get ahead of myself. Obviously, (to me) if the clearance is only .0015" on the rods, I wouldn't try to polish another .0010" out of the crank.

Eddie Hansen

Ok gents thanks for the advice, just to be clear the machinsit is doing the assembly and as i have said his reputation is excellent, and he is a pontiac and olds guy. I was thinking about the comp cam rollers, I was given advice for a lunati voodoo cam in my first engine thread

I was looking at this one #60801

• Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 256/262
• Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 213/219
• Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .485/.499
• LSA/ICL: 112/108
• Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
• RPM Range: 1000-5300

is there any other cams i should be looking at?

Eddie Hansen

anybody try one of these? this one looks ok for the price, i know it isn't sfi rated...

http://www.fastpts.com/cgi-bin/hazel...ppdampers.html

Texas Jim

These last three guys gave you pretty good advice on the bottom end. Getting that straight is super important, so take your time and get it right, along w/ a good choice on the harmonic balancer, a topic I brought up the other day due to not hearing anything about this component since being a member, however just since Sept., 09. A well balanced engine gives you more "overall efficiency," what you want. I'm going to rebuild my '71 455 very soon, and I'm going w/ the oil restrictors, slightly higher volume pump w/ appropriate pick-up, larger capacity pan w/ windage tray and oil pan baffle. I'll also slightly enlarge and chamfer the oil return passages (irt; Dick Miller parts/tech manual) and slightly smooth lifter galley. I feel that w/ any rebuild, if oiling can be improved, then do it. It's the life blood of an engine, and in this case is relatively inexpensive to do. F/sure a double true roller timing chain IMO. I really like your choice of using the factory heads because that's what I'm doing. LOL. If you're going to use the factory heads, why not make them flow as well as possible, w/i reason. I mean going to the point where you'll get the most performance f/ your dollar, which, from what I've looked into on the 455 Olds and from my experience w/ having factory heads reworked, would be, in general, the appropriate porting and polishing, bigger stainless valves w/ good guides, and hardened seats. And then the cam can set you in the correct directon f/ valve trane components. If this guy can handle the Olds heads correctly, this should do the job and not brake your wallet. In all honesty, this is what my plans are f/ my '71 455; I'm going to search out a good machinist who does good Olds work, get the block completely machined and heads reworked just like I mentioned. Then install the oil restrictors, etc. and go on from there. Once I have the machine work done, I'm on my way. And I am going w/ that 850 Mighty Demon carb. Like I was saying before, I'm not looking f/ gas mileage. If I were, I wouldn't be building a 455 at all.
I have to say AGAIN, that article link that Joe P. posted in the topic; "450 hp from a 455" was not only one I didn't have, but very close to what I wanted to do, and mostly that had to do w/ the use of the factory heads and 850 cfm carb. I stated before, I originally thought that the 455 could take atleast a 750 cfm carb just due to it's displacement alone, and some said that could be too much, some said it could take it, and not being an Olds guy, I rested and read instead of commmenting. Then Joe P. posted that link to the article I hadn't seen. An 850 Demon was used w/ the factory heads successfully in that dino run. (I had run, in the recent past, 750 and 850 Demons on 383 Chevys which weren't over-carbed.)

So Eddie, there's my opinion and game plan, in freakin' book form no-less. LOL!!! Good Luck w/ your build.

Joe P. should comment here. Don't know why he hasn't. I see Cutlassefi has chimmed in. I only reply when I know f/ sure that I have some useful advice/info. The Olds is new to me.

Eddie Hansen

Thanks for the info jim, I will dig up that article, larry Hansen is the guy doing the work BTW Hansen racing engines in middlesex new jersey, he is listed as an Oldsmobile Pontiac specialist, but I think is heart is really with Pontiac LOL. He gets very good marks by a lot of folks into musclecars around my town, more importantly I felt good, have seen the progress he's made on my motor already and it has only been a couple a weeks. I could have bumped the CR up a little with aluminum heads I know, but I kinda like that c heads were hot in 69 when my car was new, I can not afford D heads LOL... He already mentioned "porting" the oil pump mount etc, the crank has already been cross drilled, drilled for a 4 speed, etc.

I will probably go with an edelbrock performer and the quadrajet carb, I plan on using the hurst olds scoop, and will either but a repop 70-72 cold air system or make one from (gasp) a chevelle cowl induction aircleaner.

I am not using headers, and I really do not like the sound from 3 inch pipes i prefer a low gurgling kinda rumble LOL.... we will see, and i will try to get pics when i drop off some of the parts i am ordering.

by the way any thoughts to replacing the head bolts and main cap bolts with arp units is it worth it in a street engine?

Texas Jim

I'd go w/ the ARPs, as the original bolts are old and have seen their day. IMO, the bolts are like the oiling system, worth the few extra dollars you spend. Good Luck on the build.

Eddie Hansen

Jim makes sense, done. I went with that harmonic balancer too, spoke to the machinist, and he put 7 /16th studs and we are upgrading to harlan sharp rockers now i know they are waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy overkilll LOL

he does not like to put in the puny 3/8ths studs. hope these rockers fit under stock valve covers....

dc2x4drvr

The rockers will fit if you use double gaskets, , you'll probably have to remove the bafffles in the valve covers.
The Voodoo cam you're looking at will be pretty mild in a 455.
just my .02

Eddie Hansen

DC, I am open to suggestions, I do have power brakes, I have been suggested the 71 w-30 cam? I was also told that there are a lot of better cams that have come down the pike since then, I really have no ideas?

The engine builder dod not like the odea of the w-30 cam with power brakes, and he also knows I am not racing this thing, but so far we have now upgraded the rods, upgraded the stock oil pan, and are going with harlan sharp roller rockers.. LOL... I want a w-30 kinda lopey idle but I also want to maintain my power brakes even when I convert to discs, the car has pretty dead gears ( 3.08's) and the 4 speed is the m-20 wide ratio

MN71W30

455 .030 over, slight dish piston maybe .125, stock rods, Stock small valve C heads, 496 cam ? I measured the lift on one push rod, stock pan, quadrajet carb, Pertronics ign. 13.10@103mph in a 71 442. It will hit the 12's this summer. I personally thik you just don't need all the aftermaket stuff.

dc2x4drvr

I'm running a Comp cam 230/236 with power brakes. Take a look at the Voodoo 60803. These cams were designed by Harold Brookshire who used to own Ultradyne, which is now part of Bullet cams. Harold is a legendary cam designer, and the Voodoo profiles are his latest designs.

Eddie Hansen

Thanks for your thoughts I kinda agree, but the thing is the upgrades are kinda flowing into the build with some aftermarket stuff, I wanted some adjustment with the rockers, would have been been ok with the comp roller tips, but he talked me into the harlans when he put 7/16th studs, I read here and other places you can't go wrong with harlans, the machinist originally recommended a stock valve train, but I want that adjustment. The oil pan had been down the road of hard knocks, so I decided to get a new one and it adds an extra quart, with a better design then a toro pan. I got the replacement rods in a trade for an unused lencospot welder
I had, since he does chasis and race car fab so it is good for him and good for me, besides the rods I would want reconditioned anyway, with the new rods I can deduct that price (plus the cost of new arp rod bolts) just made sense. The small valve heads were getting hardened seats and new valves he said he would upgrade to the larger stock valves at the same price, so it made sense, he said he would add restrictors in the price of the block machining. The damper has a minor crack or two in the rubber, so to play it safe I will change it. the bolts are a safe upgrade, you never know and I don't want something going wrong for the want of an 6 buck bolt.

DC thanks I'll look at that

I really appreciate everyones advice!!

MN71W30

It sounds like you got a good handle on the build and the decisions you made were rock solid and sensible. You won't be sorry either.

My442

I would really be careful on the cam, especially with a 3.08 rear end.

As the cams get "hotter", the power band moves up in the RPM range.

A numerically low gear, like a 3.08, will limit the engine getting into the powerband quickly. And, a converter for that gear ration tends to have a low stall speed.

All of that equates to a car that has less low range accelleration.

I run an Engle 20-22 cam in my 70 442. It has basically the same set up as you (W/Z manifolds, Comp roller tip rockers, 4 speed too), but I have a 3.91 rear end. The car was built for where it spends 99% of it's time, from 5-60 miles per hour.

The engine was dyno'ed and tuned to perfection, so I get 15-16" of vacuum, and instant throttle response.

I had to do a bit of carb and distributor work to get it dialed in.

The engine has great street manners, runs cool, and has really, really good low to mid range power - perfect for a street car.

My advice is to talk to a few cam companies, like Engle, before you go too big on a cam. There is nothing worse than a mismatched combination for the street.

I have the Milodon 7 quart pan, windage tray, HV pump. It does not hang below the front crossmember. I do not use restrictors.

Ask me how I know.....

cutlassefi

I can grind you whatever you want or help pick one. With your setup you might want to think about a cam with less intake duration but more on the exhaust side than you would normally and ground on a tighter lobe seperation. For example, Lunati has some lobes that spec out at 223/235 @ .050. Those ground on a lobe sep of 108 with an intake centerline at 104 will give you the sound you want along with a lower rpm peak. The Engle 20-22 is 226/230 on a 110 if I'm not mistaken. A big block will handle that but you need to make sure you retain the low end and your stock exhaust manifolds don't flow too well. Might want to go with a bit more lift than that one as well. Maybe 1.7 HS rockers instead of the stock 1.6.

Without changing the gear that limits your choices.

Eddie Hansen

wow lots to think about, I have absolutely no clue as to cam selection ( as is obvious in my post) I did see that that voodoo cam came in at around 1800 then went to 5800 higher then I would probably use, my car is a 4 speed so not sure how that relates.
I I guess the thing I am afraid of is picking a cam and finding out it is either too freaky, or too lame
I won't be drag racing this car, just wanted a little lump out the rump.. and to hold my own at the AARP stop light drags LOL...

ziff396

I am running the 60803 in my 455. Auto, 2500 stall (Now), and a 3.42 gear. It's rated from 1600 to 5800 rpm. It has a noticable idle just as advertised, not rough. For my street driven Cutlass it seems just right. Great off idle and keeps pulling to 5k when I let off.

Eddie Hansen

Thanks Ziff, how do you think it would work with 3.08's and a 4 speed? I need to research this a lot more it seems? I will also see what the machinist recommends too.
On a positive note, i was digging in the garage for all the miscellaneous parts I had gathered up over the years found a new in the box hv-22 melling oil pump!! with bolt on pick up, I need to see if the Milodon pick up is compatible.

ziff396

Not sure about the 3.08. Lunati calls for 3.23-3.42. However the gearing in your 4 speed may change that. I would give them a call. My power brakes work great and I am pulling about 13-14 inches of vacume at idle in gear.

dc2x4drvr

I used to run 3.08's without a problem with my M20.

skryla

Keep us posted Eddie. I live in NJ and will be doing a similar build this summer. I bought a complete 70 455 with 38k, F Block, E heads. I want to run Qjet, WZ exhaust, stock dizzy with pertronix. Still unsure as to the CR, intake manifold, cam and rockers. I'm thinking about 10 to 1 CR. and a 200R4 trans.

Gears will be 3:42 in my 72 442.

Might run Etown every once in a blue moon but for the most part on the street.

Eddie Hansen

Stan sounds good I sent you the info, went over today as my "stuff" has been coming in, I am actually paying in smaller amounts but more frequently, pretty exciting really LOL...

saw my new rods, and pistons, got a little nervous as I thought they were going to be KB's ( they are actually) saw the box and it was icon brand?
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/test/icon/index.html
anybody hear of these and what do you think???


but apparently they are one in the same, some things to note, the compression will be bumped up a little we are now shooting for around the 9.7 to 1 and he wants me to make my decision on the cam LOL... I hate decisions,

I have to say I like Larry more and more ( in a manly he how bout them Giants kinda way LOL) brought over my new melling that I found in the shop, plus the new water pump etc etc when I purchasded a rebuild engine a few years ago from the auto parts store ( long story, 76 block, not possible 4 speed z bar, took it back refund given) anyway geting full credit on all parts for the build. most guys would say hey it is already included in the rebuild kit tough nuts

he also mentioned he was putting steel freeze out plugs says he doesn't like the brass ones as they sometimes come loose? never heard that?

anyway got to order some more odds and ends... but we are getting there LOL...

cutlassefi

Just an FYI, you can't always go by the printed rpm range. It'll be different based on displacement, manifold, carb, heads, and compression.

I'll say it again, I'd be happy to suggest a few grinds. I still like the custom stuff cuz you can get what you want and it's only a few bucks more.

Eddie Hansen

ok we are getting there just wanted to let you guys know that I have been finding some decently priced stuff, I hope it isn't junk.. LOL..

I bought an sfi approved damper here
http://stores.ebay.com/CRANKSHAFT-DEPOT

89 bucks? not bad..

and a new sfi rated billet flywheel here

http://myworld.ebay.com/ebaymotors/racersoutlet/

both sfi rated so it has t be decent right?

got the parts and they look great bringing over for the balancing on saturday, was suppose to go last saturday but I was too busy treading water to keep my head above the floods we got in jersey LOL...

been talking with Mark (cutlassefi) and others regarding the cam, still not 100% sure which way i will go, my builder likes the 60803 vodoo and Mark was kind enough to work out a custom grind, we have a little time as he still has to cc the heads after the new seats etc are in, to figure the exact compression etc etc.

citcapp

If I can offer any advice I would work with Mark on the cam. His prices are great and he works with you to custom grind your cam to the car. Weight, rear end gear ratio, how the heads are done, etc. takes everything into consideration. Just my opinion

Pat

Eddie Hansen

Pat, I could not state better then what you said I second that, Mark is great to work with and is very thorough!!

panos

x2

Eddie Hansen

went over saturday to drop off the parts I have picked up, and the motor is coming along, it has been bored already, and the valley cleaned up and the oil return improved, the balancing will be done now that I dropped off the damper and flywheel. I am looking for an intake manifold (used) if I can find it to stretch the rebuild dollars, bought a pair of tall, stock looking valve covers to clear the roller rockers.

I was checking the compression and with the pistons selected
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/test/ico...tails&P_id=503

it will give me 9.3 with 80 cc heads and 9.5 with 77's, he will cc the heads once the seats and stuff are done.

while I was there I saw this 68 GTO chasis and drive train, that he just finished for a customer, man full on resto it was gorgeous!!! really gets the juices flowing and hope to make some good progress over the summer on mine!

I haven't settled on the cam yet grrrrrrrrrrrr


anyway thought I would share

skryla

So where are you at in your build Eddie? Don't leave us hangin'