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So after over a decade of messing with oldsmobiles. Im finally building a big block. Well sort of. I got the engine from a good friend. He bought it for the heads ( aluminum). What exactly did I get... well I got a .030 over 455 with speed pro pistons ( I know not the best ) but im using them, I got it with ported J heads ( I know don't mention it either ). It came it a solid ultradyne cam. My buddy ran 11.60' with almost this exact combo. Im pretty much freshening it all up. The engine was built by an olds racer in the early 2000's for a friend and then it change hands a few times and it lived quiet a life. It spent sometime seeing nitrous being street raced ended up in a street car until the head gaskets quit. My buddy ended up with the E brocks and he said they checked out fine. I plan on sending the block out to have all the basics done despite the fact I think the block Is fine its cheap insurance.
My question here is for the more seasoned engine builders. IN an engine that has seen this type of abuse what should I look for ? My buddy pulled the caps off and all the bearings looked good. As I tear it down I plan on measuring everything out but tips are appreciated as to perhaps specific things to look for . I actually have been contacted by the guy who built it who really wants to know how everything has been holding up considering all the abuse this engine saw. For my small investment even If I need a new block or rods etc etc. I wont be upside down. which is a big plus lol.
This engine is destined for our 77 Pontiac boneville. I say our because my wife wil be driving this car and racing it. It will keep the sniper EFI that's in it now. IM shooting for low 12's in this car plan on having a 3.73 gear a th400 and a 3500 stall. This will be a street strip car.The goal will be much like any of my other small block builds., Build a capable engine and try not to spend a fortune .
This will also be the first big project I will document on my youtube page as the car as a whole has to be set up for the engine and it needs frame work etc. You cant find that at my page @ coppercutlass on youtube for those interested.
Last edited by coppercutlass; Sep 29, 2019 at 04:55 PM.
I’d say if everything checks out ok, duplicate the build. It obviously was built correctly, judging from the abuse. If something is out of spec, then either replace or refurbish, or upgrade. For example, the factory rods leave much to be desired, I’d be surprised if the big ends aren’t out of round. Aftermarket rods aren’t all that expensive, but the machine work to use them adds up. There is also the possibility of damaging the pistons pressing them off.
engine is still together. Planning on putting it on the stand soon. I have had it almost a year and haven't touched it ., which is like a new record for me lol. IM excited ., my wife and I will be working on it side by side. I was teaching her to weld this past weekend. She has followed me from track to track and picked parts up for the last 5 years. Its her turn to enjoy the hobby too.
Last edited by coppercutlass; Sep 29, 2019 at 05:53 PM.
@matt69olds That's pretty much my thinking. IM going to duplicate what was there and just make sure everything has lived well. We will see how out of round the big ends are. I had thought if I need new rods I may as well go to a lighter piston. That's if I absolutely have to. I have half a mind to just find some good used rods and add arp fasteners and just run the speed pros again. For now its all just a thought.
Use a 4 hole spacer or your sniper will have an annoying whistle. Im having my torker intake. Welded up with a super sucker so it will do 2 things lol.
Well kinda. It's for my wifes 77 Pontiac boneville. My 72 will continue to be a small block until this engine is done. Current best e/t is 11.89 @ 111 mph. Still gonna chip at it when we are done with this engine build and car build
So today my wife helped me with the year down on the 455. She learned a few things, took notes and helped. Here is what we found I only measured the rod side clearance and thrusts as the rest can get done later. But everything looks to be ok and it has some things that due to the fact someone sprayed it came inherent ( wear wise) .
Rod side clearances where betwee .010 and .012
Rods #5 and 6 had some heat marks on the faces of the big ends where ar some point it could have been starved for oil. Just those 2 rods tough , very minor but i made note of it. #8 rod bearing had some serious wear and probably due to a bad tune with nitrous ( detonation) uniform but down to the copper, main # 2 had some copper showing, along with main # 4.
Now i think who ever sprayed this engine balloned the converter and the crank thrust was .020 and was wiped out on the back side.
The bores look great visually ( have not measured yet) and the bearing surfaces all look great.
My main concern is with main #3 the thrust surface on the crank has a slight groove. From being pushed up against the thrust bearing I assume. Should I just check for thrust with new bearings ? Or should i look for a new crank.
It has ARP main bolts, stock rod bolts , if I go with ago rod bolts and resize would i have to rebalance ? Or as long as weight on rods is maintained in good ?.
First time digging into an engine like this so this is kind of a new playing feild for me.
So today my wife helped me with the tear down on the 455. She learned a few things, took notes and helped. Here is what we found I only measured the rod side clearance and thrusts as the rest can get done later. But everything looks to be ok and it has some things that due to the fact someone sprayed it came inherent (wear wise) .
Rod side clearances where betwee .010 and .012
Rods #5 and 6 had some heat marks on the faces of the big ends where ar some point it could have been starved for oil. Just those 2 rods tough, very minor but i made note of it. #8 rod bearing had some serious wear and probably due to a bad tune with nitrous ( detonation) uniform but down to the copper, main # 2 had some copper showing, along with main # 4.
Now i think who ever sprayed this engine balloned the converter and the crank thrust was .020 and was wiped out on the back side.
The bores look great visually ( have not measured yet) and the bearing surfaces all look great.
My main concern is with main #3 the thrust surface on the crank has a slight groove. From being pushed up against the thrust bearing I assume. Should I just check for thrust with new bearings ? Or should i look for a new crank.
It has ARP main bolts, stock rod bolts, if I go with ARP rod bolts and resize would i have to rebalance ? Or as long as weight on rods is maintained in good ?.
First time digging into an engine like this so this is kind of a new playing field for me.
I know you like to do things on a budget but a few concerns here;
If 2 and 4 mains are showing wear then it’s most likely out of balance. And I would align hone it, especially now.
Rod bolts won’t weight that much different. Problem is stock BB rods spread on the big end. It makes it hard to get a consistent dimension on them.
And spraying an engine shouldn’t make it wear like that, it was a bad tune.
Get a new center main and see how much clearance you have. You might be able to have a crank grinder just dress the face very lightly.
Lastly if you can find the cash opt for Eagle Rods and a better more appropriate piston and have it balanced. It should live a long and happy life then.
Last edited by cutlassefi; Oct 14, 2019 at 01:52 AM.
So today my wife helped me with the year down on the 455. She learned a few things, took notes and helped. Here is what we found I only measured the rod side clearance and thrusts as the rest can get done later. But everything looks to be ok and it has some things that due to the fact someone sprayed it came inherent ( wear wise) .
Rod side clearances where betwee .010 and .012
Rods #5 and 6 had some heat marks on the faces of the big ends where ar some point it could have been starved for oil. Just those 2 rods tough , very minor but i made note of it. #8 rod bearing had some serious wear and probably due to a bad tune with nitrous ( detonation) uniform but down to the copper, main # 2 had some copper showing, along with main # 4.
Now i think who ever sprayed this engine balloned the converter and the crank thrust was .020 and was wiped out on the back side.
The bores look great visually ( have not measured yet) and the bearing surfaces all look great.
My main concern is with main #3 the thrust surface on the crank has a slight groove. From being pushed up against the thrust bearing I assume. Should I just check for thrust with new bearings ? Or should i look for a new crank.
It has ARP main bolts, stock rod bolts , if I go with ago rod bolts and resize would i have to rebalance ? Or as long as weight on rods is maintained in good ?.
First time digging into an engine like this so this is kind of a new playing feild for me.
You do not need to rebalance is you install ARP rod bolts. They are the same size bolts. You’ll never notice a difference.
Last week I had some rods resized with the pistons hung on the rods. I had material taken off the sides on one bank to get .016” side clearance.
I would check the big ends of those rods. On the 455 I’m working on now, some of the big ends were out of round .0015”
The only way to tell if your crank is usable is to install it with a new thrust bearing and check. Be sure to check with the thrust bearing cap torqued down. Before it’s torqued down, smack the ends back-and-forth per usual. If the groove on the thrust side of the crank is superficial is could be polished out with some very fine wet sandpaper and WD-40. Or a machinist can polish it.
Last edited by VinMichael; Oct 14, 2019 at 02:10 AM.
Thanks. The thrust surface is smooth but it ended up with a very small ridge. Like how a bore on a cylinder gets but not as severe. I figured as long as thrust is good with a new bearing i should be good. I gotta buy a new bore gauge and i will chexk the rods and the bores for taper and what not . for now I wanted to do a basic analysis. Thanks Vin for the advice.
Hopefully the thrust specs out. You probably already know this but it should have been line honed if ARP main bolts are used per ARP installation instruction. They call for more torque.
Stock main bolts work fine and eliminate special installation instructions. Where I am a line hone is $150 - $180. I had it done to the first 455 I built, but not the one I’m working on now. The one I’m working on now is actually more consistent dimensionally in the main bores than the one I had line honed.
Last edited by VinMichael; Oct 14, 2019 at 10:57 AM.
I had it done to the first 455 I built, but not the one I’m working on now. The one I’m working on now is actually more consistent dimensionally in the main bores than the one I had line honed.
Then your guy did a crappy job, sorry. They should’ve been very consistent on the one that was align honed.
And when using ARP bolts or studs you MUST use their lube. They quit giving torque specs with oil because of the variances in oil.
Then your guy did a crappy job, sorry. They should’ve been very consistent on the one that was align honed.
And when using ARP bolts or studs you MUST use their lube. They quit giving torque specs with oil because of the variances in oil.
Here's the variation I measured after the line hone. 1 - 3.1886” 2 - 3.1886” 3 - 3.1890” 4 - 3.1892” 5 - 3.1892”
On the other hand I found the main bores on the factory block all measured within .0001"
My ARP 185-5001 instructions specify only ARP lube to 100 ft lbs.
Here's the variation I measured after the line hone. 1 - 3.1886” 2 - 3.1886” 3 - 3.1890” 4 - 3.1892” 5 - 3.1892”
On the other hand I found the main bores on the factory block all measured within .0001"
My ARP 185-5001 instructions specify only ARP lube to 100 ft lbs.
Unacceptable variance plus you’re over the high on 4 and 5. Like I said he did a crappy job. His stones are tapered on the arbor, he should’ve flipped the block around. I’d have him redo it.
Last edited by cutlassefi; Oct 15, 2019 at 06:50 AM.
Unacceptable variance plus you’re over the high on 4 and 5. Like I said he did a crappy job. His stones are tapered on the arbor, he should’ve flipped the block around. I’d have him redo it.
Thanks for pointing that out. What's the acceptable range? The engine is already in the car and running. But I was planning to pull it in the next few months, anyway.
Thanks for pointing that out. What's the acceptable range? The engine is already in the car and running. But I was planning to pull it in the next few months, anyway.
So today my wife helped me with the year down on the 455. She learned a few things, took notes and helped. Here is what we found I only measured the rod side clearance and thrusts as the rest can get done later. But everything looks to be ok and it has some things that due to the fact someone sprayed it came inherent ( wear wise) .
Rod side clearances where betwee .010 and .012
Rods #5 and 6 had some heat marks on the faces of the big ends where ar some point it could have been starved for oil. Just those 2 rods tough , very minor but i made note of it. #8 rod bearing had some serious wear and probably due to a bad tune with nitrous ( detonation) uniform but down to the copper, main # 2 had some copper showing, along with main # 4.
Now i think who ever sprayed this engine balloned the converter and the crank thrust was .020 and was wiped out on the back side.
The bores look great visually ( have not measured yet) and the bearing surfaces all look great.
My main concern is with main #3 the thrust surface on the crank has a slight groove. From being pushed up against the thrust bearing I assume. Should I just check for thrust with new bearings ? Or should i look for a new crank.
It has ARP main bolts, stock rod bolts , if I go with ago rod bolts and resize would i have to rebalance ? Or as long as weight on rods is maintained in good ?.
First time digging into an engine like this so this is kind of a new playing feild for me.
Ck the crank for run out. Maybe 1 out of 100 aftermarket new cranks can get by with out being straitened.
Last edited by VORTECPRO; Oct 15, 2019 at 08:23 PM.
So essentially the stones are cone shaped and honing from both sides would average out the bores within 3 tenths. Because right now I’m out 6 tenths
Line honing is complex, flipping the block several times during the line hone is standard in a good shop. The honing is the easy part, setting up the caps correctly is the time consuming tricky part of the job.
1. The front face of the cap must be 90 degrees to the mating surface
2. On a Olds the 1st cap is cut .003, 2 3 4 cap is cut .004, the rear cap is cut .003
3. The oil pump is Torqued up during the honing
4. If one cap hones faster IT IS NEVER LOOSENED, it is cut more
5. I flip the block every 20 strokes
6. The guide shoes and hone stones must be tight.
7. I wouldn't vary more than .0002
8. Pretty much these steps eliminates the chances of you getting the job done right at a majority of most machine shops-good luck
9. I charge 275.00 for this operation, more if its problematic
Last edited by VORTECPRO; Oct 15, 2019 at 08:20 PM.
Line honing is complex, flipping the block several times during the line hone is standard in a good shop. The honing is the easy part, setting up the caps correctly is the time consuming tricky part of the job.
1. The front face of the cap must be 90 degrees to the mating surface
2. On a Olds the 1st cap is cut .003, 2 3 4 cap is cut .004, the rear cap is cut .003
3. The oil pump is Torqued up during the honing
4. If one cap hones faster IT IS NEVER LOOSENED, it is cut more
5. I flip the block every 20 strokes
6. The guide shoes and hone stones must be tight.
7. I wouldn't vary more than .0002
8. Pretty much these steps eliminates the chances of you getting the job done right at a majority of most machine shops-good luck
9. I charge 275.00 for this operation, more if its problematic
Most shops around here don't even have line hone at all.
He did a good job on my Chevy 4 bolt main 3970010 block that he worked on a year after the he did the 455. Chevy block was within .0002"
I'm sure he'll redo the 455 block for me when I bring this to his attention.
Last edited by VinMichael; Oct 16, 2019 at 03:01 PM.
Hypothetical question here. Say I add the ARP rod bolts. I torque them down and measure at multiple points to see how out of round the big ends are. what's the acceptable variance is any is ever acceptable ? If the rods have been resized will this be an issue.
From what the original builder told me ( which I wont mention his name but he is a builder and olds racer and trustworthy source) this engine kinda got the works I guess for the time . Keep in mind this was built in the early 2000's . This engine had to have been balanced as the rods got notched and what not and im going to assume the rods got resized. Will that be an issue if I get them resized ???
Balancing the rotating assembly , and align honing it and polishing the crank and taking care of the block shouldn't be a deal breaker. Not trying to a complete cheap *** here but I am trying to pretty much run whats there without replacing a whole lot. It will get new bearings and rings and stuff like that. That's kind of where im going with this build.
I can only say for myself, but round rod housing bores is not something I want. The vertical housing bore clearance is what you measure, the parting line measurement runs big. Taper and vertical clearance is what your concerned about. You would change the bolts, ck the housing bore to see if the vertical clearance is in spec, ck for taper, then TQ up the rods with the bearings and ck the bearing to crank clearance, then adjust to get the desired clearance if possible.
Last edited by VORTECPRO; Oct 16, 2019 at 08:49 PM.
It's time to knock the dust off of this thread. I finally checked the end play and although I didn't get a chance to put a dial indicator on it. It's gonna be OK . ( Left it at work ). . I decided this is gonna be a down and dirty budget build. I only have 1100 into it and truth be told I'd rather start a new build all together to do it my way. I'm gonna just clean this up check and measure everything. Put it together and run it. The plan is to have it done by the end of August. I have most the parts. All I need is rod bearings. Rocker arms will be on load and push rods will be provided by a friend in a few sizes that will hopefully work. If not I will order them. I will be in search of a cheap set of BBO A body headers. Nothing about this build will be " proper" but you can watch the Trainwreck for nothing 😂😂. I think it should be ok.
Car ran 11.60's in horrible weather. Mid 80's 55 percent humidity and 3300 D.a. the gear in the car was wayyy too much (4.56) but over all not bad for cobbled up. Engine is already sold and I'm onto the next project.
NOT BAD FOR FOR A J headed engine. I'm sure with cooler weather and further tuning it could go bottom 11's. But the plan was for a one and done deal. We ran it then the trans took a crap after 6 runs. All's well that ends well.
The car was still a tad heavy with driver with weight being just over 3000 lbs 3100 to 3250 . Forgot the exact number
Last edited by coppercutlass; Oct 12, 2020 at 03:41 PM.
Car ran 11.60's in horrible weather. Mid 80's 55 percent humidity and 3300 D.a. the gear in the car was wayyy too much (4.56) but over all not bad for cobbled up. Engine is already sold and I'm onto the next project.
NOT BAD FOR FOR A J headed engine. I'm sure with cooler weather and further tuning it could go bottom 11's. But the plan was for a one and done deal. We ran it then the trans took a crap after 6 runs. All's well that ends well.
The car was still a tad heavy with driver with weight being just over 3000 lbs 3100 to 3250 . Forgot the exact number[/QUOTE
Mehhhhh we where not worried about HP. We got close enough first time out with no tuning. Our goal was 11.2 had we changed things and had a better trans . It should have been there. But engine is coming out and being sold. Done deal. Never mind the fact we rolled the car off the trailer , made zero changes besides trying a 950 carb . All in all not bad. Trans crapped out 6th pass. We where out of time , tired and called it done lol.
Last edited by coppercutlass; Oct 13, 2020 at 06:42 PM.
Yes th400 for the big block. My current small block has a TH350. Actually the trans that originally resided behind the 455 when it originally was in the 75 LeMans. Long story lol.
