1976Oldswagon

I replaced the cam, lifters, rockers, intake+carb, and most ignition parts.

I can get the engine to fire, but it won't turn over...how do I get the timing close enough to start it? I eyeballed it to 0 degrees TDC and rolled it back a bit. the new intake doesn't allow enough clearance to turn the distributor as much as I'd like.

also, I took the power steering pump pulley off, and there is an indention on the shaft and the pulley?? is there a pin of some kind that goes there? I couldn't find one.

car is a 1968 olds delta 88.

oldcutlass

Make sure your firing order is correct. Some manifolds interfere with HEI distributors. Advance your timing a little until it starts and then set it to where it needs to be.

joe_padavano

We need a little terminology clarification. To most people, "won't turn over" means that the starter won't turn the engine. Is that what you really mean, or do you mean that the engine is sputtering but not catching? If the latter, it sure sounds like the distributor is 180 deg out.

The notch in the PS pump shaft is a keyway. The pulley should have a matching notch, and you should have a key like the one between the crank and harmonic damper.

1976Oldswagon

When I installed the distributor, I had the valve cover off and put #1 to the compression stroke, and did the firing order off of that. The distributor is a points unit with a pointless kit, and an MSD blaster 2 coil, and won't clear the offy intake. Today I will completely revise the system to make sure the firing order is right, and it isn't 180 out.

The power steering pump shaft and pulley have a notch in, neither has an outward notch. It's nothing like the harmonic balancer.

joe_padavano

Remember that the Olds distributor turns CCW, opposite of a Chevy.

I don't know what you mean by "a notch in". By definition, a notch is a female feature. The shaft should have a notch on the OD, the pulley should have a notch on the ID. There should be a separate key that goes in the notch and keeps the two oriented. The pulley is retained by a nut.

Here's the notch in the pulley:



This photo shows the pump shaft with the key installed in the notch. The key is semi-circular and the notch in the pump shaft is rounded at the bottom to fit it.

1976Oldswagon

Okay, so the key disappeared somewhere along the way...can I attack a penny with a bench grinder to get something to make it work? Is there a substitute I can get?

I don't have a shop, the car is parked on the street in front of my friends house, I keep my tools in the trunk, and if anything falls out of the engine bay it is carried away by the drainage on the street. Less than ideal, but it's what I've got.

don71

No I wouldn't try the backyard penny approach. Unless you want to do things twice or three...A decent auto parts store should have a selection keys to choose from. Tell them you need a woodruff key and what you're working on.

I will admit, not a fun search, but you got do this right.

1976Oldswagon

okay got home. found the woodruff key, it landed on the framerail and was saved.

I'm going to re-assemble the p/s and put the rad/fan/shroud back on, and then mess with the timing.

damn school, takes up 80% of my oldsmobile tinkering time

don71

Good save on the key!

You got the timing right now? or there abouts?

Macadoo

[QUOTE=damn school, takes up 80% of my oldsmobile tinkering time [/QUOTE]

Try being a Prof, it's more like 90%

Let us know how things turn out with the timing. I'm installing a new HEI and performer intake, along with a cam, lifters, and springs. Not the same as you but I don't mind learning from other's mistakes

1976Oldswagon

okay, I think I found the problem. as long as I am on the starter, it runs fine, but as soon as I let the trigger go, it dies.

I pulled the coil wire out of the distributor, turned the key on, and did not get a constant spark, however it does spark vibrantly when I crank the engine.

the alternator is not installed.

this is a MSD blaster 2 coil, which does not need a ballast resister....right?

I haven't touched the electrical system in this car, did I accidentally make a problem somewhere, or is there something I am overlooking?

Barry Jones

It sounds like the start switch at the bottom of the steering column.

oldcutlass

It sounds like your missing the run circuit from the key switch. Did you connect 2 wires to your coil + terminal. There is 1 wire from the starter and 1 wire (the resistance wire) from the plug on the firewall.

1976Oldswagon

2 wires come out of the harness and go to the positive side of the coil. is there another one?

oldcutlass

Shouldn't be another, I believe your problem lies with the resister wire coming from the firewall plug, or I believe the pink wire from under the dash. You can run a temporary jumper to the coil plus terminal from the battery to start it.

1976Oldswagon

when the key is on I get 3.7 volts at the positive side of the coil, when I attempt to crank it, I get 8-10.

I jumped it with an old extension cord, and had a hard time holding it to the battery/coil and have a hand free for the starter, and a free hand for the carb. it definately stumbled longer. I am hesitant to wire in the extension cord to the battery/coil in case I have to kill it fast, but I guess I have to try. I can't see anything out of the ordinary in the wiring that would cause this problem...where does the resistance wire start? is it the entire thing?

oldcutlass

Check the harness that has the wiring to the coil in it for damage or the ??. It goes all the way to the connectors under the master cylinder.

1976Oldswagon

its probably the connector under the MC then, I checked the connectors at the coil.

in other news, the engine does run, and of course I found a few problems with it as soon as I started it-most importantly, the primarys on the carb do not work, only the secondaries do.

anyone have any ideas? no amount of carb cleaner did anything.

the engine will simply not run unless I am holding the secondaries open. if I pump the throttle a few times, it will fire, stutter, not continue to run. carbs are not my specialty.

1976Oldswagon

also, the pushrods are wearing against the pushrod guides, so I need to buy hardened ones.

can someone give me a link to what I need to buy? I went on summit and couldn't figure out what I need.

Edit: ordered new pushrods

1976Oldswagon

hosed the carb down with carb cleaner, and tapped it with a hammer to un-stick anything inside. I don't think the jets are clogged, because its BOTH primaries.

when I crank the engine and don't hold the throttle open, I can see the inline filter gets dry every time the engine pulls some air, is this because of the idle circuit?

64Rocket

Sounds like you need more timing, advance the dizzy clock wise a little at a time.
Fuel problem, may be a fuel pump, or maybe pump has not drawn fuel from the tank yet.

Gene

oldcutlass

Did you get the car to run?

1976Oldswagon

it will not idle long enough to set the timing in...the carb is getting plenty of fuel.

only on the secondaries.

the current status of the 88:
pushrods wearing on pushrod guides, hardened ones in the mail
still deciding on headers.
looking for second hand MSD 6A.
carb is fubar. exhibiting symptoms of a computer controlled carb without a computer, vehicle it was removed from and date code say it SHOULD be a CC unit, but there is no electrical connectors on the carb for the computer. also says its off of an '83 caddy with a manual transmission...so...it might just be a freak.

may buy new one, may rebuild it, may have it rebuilt by someone who knows what they are doing.

as soon as the pushrods come in, I will adjust the valves one last time, put on the valve covers/AC+alternator brackets/cooling system and finish anything else I can, its starting to get cold and the motorcycle isn't going to cut it for too much longer, this car needs to get done.

joe_padavano

Sounds like the idle circuit is plugged somewhere. No amount of spraying down the venturies will fix this, only a rebuild.

Post some photos of the carb and the carb number. I've seen frankencarbs there were pieced together from mismatched parts. Did this car ever run correctly with that carb?

1976Oldswagon

THIS car never ran with this carb, I did see the truck I pulled it off of run fine. 305 or 350, idk.

I can't get my phone to connect to the computer right now, but here is the carb no. 17084231

1976Oldswagon

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oldcutlass

Love the bolt spacers. What idle RPM are your running? And are any of those vacuum lines open when the engine is running.

1976Oldswagon

I left the bolts that went with the carb at the salvage yard, the only ones that were remotely close enough were too long...so now there are nut spacers.

the engine will not idle.

I plugged every vac line I could find, I'm confident in saying that that isn't the problem.

oldcutlass

What is your timing set to? The reason I ask is if the timing is too low, then you have to crank up the idle past the idle circuit. Is there access to the 2 idle/air mixture screws or are there little freeze plugs still there? I would unscrew those all the way out and spray carb cleaner in the ports and wipe off the needle screws. Then screw them all way all the way in and back them out 2 1/2 turns each.

1976Oldswagon

I will check my timing. it is fixing to rain here, so I'm going to wait before going to the car.

MDchanic

There is a piece of sheetmetal sticking up behind the primaries that I don't recognize.

And that looks like an electric choke to me - is your choke closing and operating properly?

- Eric

1976Oldswagon

the choke isn't hooked up, I have not tested it for function.

I know the piece of metal you are talking about, I have no idea what it is for, and it is clearly home made. it was on it when I got it/saw it run, so I haven't messed with it.

joe_padavano

First, you have a 1980s-vintage emissions carb. It is not a CCC carb, obviously. It is calibrated for 1980s truck-class emissions (light trucks have different requirements than automobiles).

Second, do you have the correct base gasket? These carbs often have different passages on the bottom that need to be sealed to the manifold correctly to avoid a vacuum leak. The wrong gasket will result in a leak and no idle.

Third, this is one of the crustiest carbs I have ever seen. A rebuild will do wonders.

Fourth, why this carb? It's set up for an entirely different application. This would NOT have been my first (or second) choice for this engine.

Fifth, the choke needs to be hooked up and functioning properly if you want any idle when the engine is cold.

Sixth, the piece of metal in question is a factory-installed baffle used on some Qjets.

1976Oldswagon

truck carb from the '80s-makes sense since I pulled it off of an '80s truck

I'm not sure, but it is one of the thickest carb gaskets I have ever seen, it goes around the outside of the carb, not through the "bridge" created by the gap between venturies.

a rebuild is probably going to happen, I just need this car on the road soon.

it was cheap, I'm broke, I needed something functional/rebuildable.

define cold. if I remember correctly, the choke on my cutlass kicked in at 57 degrees, every time I've tried to run it its been in the 80s. on that note, how do I hook up an electric choke where there wasn't one before? switch in the interior?

cool. what was the purpose of the baffle?

joe_padavano

The choke isn't an on/off arrangement. It will close progressively, depending on temperature. Keep in mind that it also controls the fast idle cam, which you do need active when the engine is cold. For electric choke connections, see this thread.

1976Oldswagon

thanks for that thread, I will most likely do the second method using the relay.

once the new pushrods come in, I will install the alternator, and wire that up.

when I do rebuild the carb, what jets/metering rods should I order?

1976Oldswagon

okay, made some more progress with the car.

new pushrods came in, after a minor freak out that they were longer than the ones I pulled out, and a phone call to Comp, they are installed and work fine.

if I pump the throttle 5 times, and hold the choke, the engine will start, and run as long as I hold the choke. after it warms, it has a VERY slow rough idle, that is most likely because the timing has never been set (I don't have 3 hands )

valve covers are on, hopefully for good, the alternator is going back on, along with the cooling system. I'm going to leave the AC compressor/system off for the time being.

how much smoke should come out of the PCV breathers? there was A LOT when it warmed up.

I put the coil back in the stock position, and unhooked my jumper line for the time being. I don't think the spark was strong enough with the timing as far off as I'm sure it is.

will post a pic of the engine bay later, it actually looks a lot better than I thought it would.

1976Oldswagon

how do I verify that I have a good seal between the intake manifold and the heads? I think that might be the problem.

coppercutlass

Spray a little carb cleaner around the flange where it meets the heads while it's running. If it the rpm goes up you got a leaking intake gasket.

1976Oldswagon

been a few days, but I got some work done.

pulled off the intake, replaced intake seals, enough RTV to seal the hole in my bank account this car is causing (okay maybe not)

put it all back together, installed alternator and half of the cooling system (missing a few hose clamps, thermostat, and I need an adapter, but nothing serious)

the car will start now, and it runs half decent, but it won't idle, and a few seconds after starting, it makes a tremendous sucking noise from the top of the carb, and it stalls unless I'm on the throttle.

its worse when I'm holding the choke

I can post a video tomorrow.