coppercutlass

But he would have an undercarbed engine down the road if he ever want to get that engine goin in the higher rpms.

oldcutlass

Maybe at the end of the track, but I'd be willing to bet on the street it would be just fine.

coppercutlass

For me it was a big diffrence off the line between a 650 and the 600 . But I went from an edelbrock to a double pumper. I went from not being able to spin my tires to shreadding them from a stand still.

442rocketdave

Its true the carb was not the main issue although a 650 is small for a 461 cubic engine with a mild cam and high compression pistons, by the flow chart it is too small especially for any performance applications like Oldcutlass said its the advance problems and like MDmechanic pointed out about that module there in lies the problem IMO and I also experienced that Crazy timing light problem with my snap on and sun light dial timing lights back then!! and after putting the points back in it stopped and then I hooked up the MSD6A and never had a problem.

442rocketdave

Coppercutlass thats a good point with the vacuum secondaries it could also be just some adjustment to the carb with lighter spring to open sooner!! Good point!! with a double pumper you have instant action and like the old Holley 780s you had a alot of tuning in the secondaries so its probably the same with his new carb needing to secondaries adjusted slightly

coppercutlass

Yes even on a small block the 750's need some tuning on the secondary side. We spent some time tuning my friends chevy 350 with the 3310 holley . But again this is addressing another issue ., not his timing issue but i feel as the carb should also be properly be set up for it's intended use. For example i had some issues from when i took out my old old 350 and put it in my dads car. It seemed really under powered. The first issue was the car wheighed much more than my cutlass and he ran manifolds it has a 2.56 ? rear gear., headers make an engine lean so I first though it was the carb being rich well it was along with a few other things things. The timing was coming in too slow so we changed that. i changed the step up springs in the edelbrock so it could get a little less fuel off the line, and we stopped using 87 octane which for a 9 to 1 combo isnt bad but it made a diffrence probably becasue the car say for long periods in between being moved or driven orund the shop lot and alley. My point being is everything has to work together properly . Now the car moves out of it's way even for being a mid 70's b body with an sbo and a econo gear set. it really wakes up around 20 mph. Now if i where to add lets say a 3.42 rear gear it would work that much better. It all has to be part of a complete package. I might use used parts and use what i got but i dont mis match it., it all has to work properly together. Even when i had a tight converter and a smaller carb on my last 350 it perfromed very well it didnt bog it didnt surge it just lack a little power off the line but still ran strong., It's what you wanted on the street but for faster et.s not the best., a bigger carb and looser converter would have lowered my et.'s but probably not my mph by much . The edelbrock carb was sufficient but not enough fuel off the line imo and the converter would have let me launch at a much more desriable power band. Little things make a diffrence.

coppercutlass

This happens all the time to people who just drop a rebuilt engine in and they dont back it up properly No offense to anyone but it happens and is true and i kinda went through that. You install a cam but dont add the proper converter or gear , or intake, or headers, etc. This is more or less what happened to me. i expected this to be a straight forward install and it would run great. Well it ran great on my car but my car was lighter, i had a diffrent converter, 3.73 gear, free flowing exhaust. My dad's car was the opposite and it took me sometime to learn how to tune it for his set up . even though it is a very mild mild build which you would think hey it should be fine behind stock rear gear and trans and exhaust it wasn't. the icing on the cake would be the 3.42 gear but my dad is no hot rodder he just likes driving old gm steel.

442rocketdave

Thats right one change makes something else work different, for every action there is a an equal and opposite reaction, that is very true! Change the cam and intake and carb every thing is different. Right now Scooter has the right carb and I believe a good setup for street driving and he just needs to get that distributor up to speed and retime the engine, readjust the carb and get the secondaries to open at the right speed and he should be running good!!

scooter123

for those who were wondering about the timing.....I now have my inital set at 8 deg @ 600 rpm

coppercutlass

Why so low ? Did it affect anything ? Any diffrence in performance .

cutlassefi

I may have already posted this but I just dynoed a 10.0:1 iron headed 455 a few weeks ago.
Even with a fairly larger cam than yours I lost 6hp going from 33* to 35* total.
Chances are you'll need to keep your spark curve fairly conservative.

scooter123

this is where I backed it off to avoid engine pinging for now!!!!

coppercutlass

have you thought about getting some 110 racing fuel to see if that helps. i know you mentioned 93 octane .

scooter123

right now it has 91 oct.....thats all i can get around here.....I will talk to the guys at napa to see if they can get race fuel!!! I might try that befor I mess around with the distributor

oldcutlass

Just wait for the recurve kit. The race fuel is very expensive and will screw you all up trying to recurve the distributor. You want to set your distributor with the fuel your going to run.

scooter123

Very true...great point!!

coppercutlass

I was just suggesting the race fuel for instance if you wanted to run the timing where you had it at before and see if the pinging would go away just with fuel . But racing fuel is expensive. I think it's 7.50 out here.

scooter123

copper woud you just run straight race fuel or would you just mix it with a lower octane??

coppercutlass

Im one to find a simple solution first then work on fixing it in a more complex way. I would run you tank down to E them run some 110 in it and put the timing where you had it and see if it goes away. This in no way will be a fix but atleast you will know the pinging will go away. The only times i have ran 110 is at the track i usually blend 3 gal. of 93 to 6 of 110. Not sure why but usually when i filled up my fuel cell would be only about 3 gal. In my case i wanted to see how much timig i could run to get some advantage in et.'s and it wasn't worth the effort. Like i said tht 110 wont be a fix as much of way to know the pinging will go away. You will have to tune it for the fuel you will run.

captjim

Detonation (pinging) is caused by a combination of cylinder pressure (most important factors being compression and cam) and timing and to a lesser degree fuel curve. So what if the 110 cures it, just tells the OP what he already knows. Running 110 on a daily basis is not practical. How does that help? You suggested the carb change, which did not cure the ping. Big surprise. Then defended that suggestion endlessly. With the specs he has provided, cam comp, etc, he should be able to run pump gas. IMHO.

coppercutlass

Jim say waht you want. All im saying is first make sure the 110 will fix the issue. Which yes confirming what he suspects is always good. i never said a bigger carb would solve his issue with pinging but it did richen it up and it will help him in the long run. I never defended that it would fix his pinging. YOU ARE AN IDIOT ! You constantly say thing i dont say . I also never said he should run it on a daily basis. I just said he should just put some 110 out his timing where he had it and see what happens. Then once he knows it does not ping he can go ahead and have that little piece of mind that yes his engine wont ping then tune for the 93. And yes he should be able to run pump gas. Im running 10 to 1 on iron heads on 93 and 92 and 91. whatever premium i get is what i run. So jim You can go f*** your self. I clearly said 110 wont be a fix as much of a way to know the pinging will go away. You seem to forget to read. Personally if i had pinging and i knew 110 would cure it i would run some for S*&^'s and giggles to make sure it's that. I had what i though was detonation. Turns out at high rpms my flex plate was slightly hitting the starter and it sounded like detonation. I fixed the problem and no more noises. I also Once had an exhaust leak at very high rpms at the collectors and it sounded like pinging.

captjim

Scooter stated that reducing his timing eliminated the ping. This ruled out flex plates, exhaust leaks, etc. Running race fuel would do the same thing, tell him what everybody already knows, he needs to dial in the timing curve. Running race fuel has no value in regards to troubleshooting the problem, IMHO. You keep making suggestions (get a bigger carb, run race fuel) that cost him time and money and do not help him with his issue. Again, IMHO.

scooter123

Will have the spring kit for the distributor this week so I hope to find a guy to tune it.....there is a guy in town that builds race engines I hope to talk to him this week....if he dont have the time he might be able to recomend someone who can!!

scooter123

If I cant find anyone.....can someone list in a step by step which springs/weights to use!!
Like with the engine pinging that Im getting now.....would I lighten the springs or would I use a heavier spring?

I dont know the theory behind it all........Ive looked for videos on youtube but didnt find anything of any use!!

captjim

Here is a good read,
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c3/joe..._Recurve.shtml

The problem is that every set up is different, it takes some time and trial and error to get it just right. You can try to find a similar build and copy that tune, just to get you close.

scooter123

thanks

coppercutlass

Correct jim 110 wont troubleshoot i never said that the 110 would fix the issue. I just stated my flexplate and exhaust leaks issues as examples not that it applied to his situation . Scooter i have an hei here i can give you just pay for shipping it needs new elctronics module etc. if you want it let me know. the crane cams advance kit has a very detailed set of instructions and is designed to work with the stock wheights it explains where the advance starts and where the advance will end with what wheights. this set of instructions helped me undertand alot when i was curving the dist. on my dad's car

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cr...a/instructions

read the pdf file for instructions most kits just give you the graph sheet and thats confusing as hell atleast it was for me.

scooter123

Thanks guys...both good reads....I think I will give it a try on my own!!

cutlassefi

CC- Because of your incomplete/ranting posts, this is why we think you eluded to the fact that a bigger carb would cure his problem. Where does it say that you DON'T think this will solve his problem. See my point, again?

cutlassefi

Yes you did, read above. And I think I was the one who mentioned rejetting and caught hell for it from you, right?

I think you're not sure what you say sometimes, you're in such a hurry to respond. I believe you just like to hear yourself type

Jmo.

coppercutlass

I clearly mentioned his lean issue. Again it's the same people who jump to conclusions and make ASSumtions. Again mark he is better off with the bigger carb. Yes he could have re jetted his carb but on the top end his engine would have insufficient fuel.

cutlassefi

And you didn't make assumptions? You said a bigger carb would cure it, it didn't did it?

And at the top end it would have insufficient fuel AND AIR. If jetted right it would have plenty of fuel. You can make a big carb run lean just as easy as you can make a small carb run rich. It doesn't matter.

You'll never admit you were wrong so why bother. You'll just keep dodging your posts.

Whatever.

coppercutlass

I guess mark is saying a 650 carb is good for a bbo. Whatever. Opinions cannot be wronf since it's what one belives. My opinion cannot be wrong since it's what I belive and like I said why reccomend he dump money on a carb any other engine builder would tell him not to bother with.

scooter123

Just a little update...I call the engine shop this morning and he said he machined .008 off the heads and .008 off the block!
So my pistons are SEALED POWER #369P.......CAM IS COMP CAM XE262.....WITH G HEADS

Any rough calculation of compression using these parts!!

Thanks

captjim

.008 is not very much, just enough to clean things up. As Mark stated back on page 1, CR is probably around 9.5 to 1. The 160 cranking psi along with the cam you have makes that number about right. I had a 355 with 185 and it ran fine on pump gas. You just need to be patient and get it right, you will.

oldcutlass

Did you get your kit yet?

scooter123

No kit yet,,,but I did get a new thermostat today!! The car was running a tad bit warm around 200/210 so I bought a new 160* stat....the one I took out was a 195*.....Will this 160 stat be ok to run...I took it for a drive and it runs at about 180*....Im thinking this os good??

oldcutlass

It's fine.

scooter123

Just an update guys...I got a distributor spring kit......tried two of the heavy springs and still getting engine ping with me initial timing at about 14 deg.......not sure what else to do with this, the car should be able to spin the tire with the new engine.....like I said before the old engine I could hit it from a dead stop and it would lay a strip of rubber 50 ft long!!!!

Withall new engine and the new comp cam and the new 10.1 pistons and a new 750 cfm carb, I was under the impression that it would be able to do much better that the old stock 8.1 pistons.

Im going to try and get it into a performance shop this week to see if they can fine tune this engine.......maybe a new distributor is in order...the one thats in there looks pretty dam old......and as for the bushing thats supose to be in there .....there is nothing in there I could find!!!

oldcutlass

Did you change the weights and put in a medium and a light spring.