citcapp

Been doing a lot of research on EFI systems. There are quite a few options and opinions. One that intrigues me is the Performance Products Power Injection III system. It is self contained and made in the USA. I have search reviews and found the previous to the the III generation of software there were a lot of problems. The reviews on the III generation are good. Has anyone here installed this system. I can be purchased for around $1,600.00 if you shop around.

Allan R

Does this mean you're converting to EFI on your car? That would be a neat thread to start and follow. Go for it!

citcapp

The 455 will be completed in the next week or two and this is something I would like to do. I would just like to meet someone who has done this conversion and get his thoughts on the performance. My 455 will produce somewhere in the 470 to 500 hp at the flywheel and I just need to learn more before I spend the money

Allan R

LMK what you find out. I'm going to start a 455 build later this year for my 72. I'm not looking for 470-500 though, just around the 300 is fine. What kind of trans are you installing? I was thinking of picking up a 700R and maybe overbuilding it a little.

cutlassefi

Read this thread, it might change your mind on the PJIII. And be extra careful when you run these systems on applications with larger camshafts.

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.ph...93#post1799093

Allan- if you go EFI why not do something that does everything? The PJIII doesn't do torque converter lockup, control fans, A/C clutch, doesn't do spark either. That's where you're really missing the boat, it can have a profound effect on running quality, especially when very cold and/or very hot.

Jmo.

citcapp

I am running a TKO-6 5 speed stick setup

What i don't like about the Excel unit is the need for a special manifold plus I don't see a system listed for a Oldsmobile 455.

I have looked at the Holley setup as well. It all becomes very confusing on which system would work best for me without breaking the bank. Systems are listed from a low of 1600 bucks to well over 6000, so what is a good choice for a 570 - 500 hp street/strip setup with my cam profile? And I thought this would be easy, not so

leadfoot067

i have a holley commander 950 EFI TBI setup on my off road rig...its tunable with a laptop.i see now holley offers the plug,play self tuning setup.i dont see my setup listed anymore..it took me a long time to get the setup dialed in. could have been alot faster if i wanted to pay for some chassis dyno time..for reference the motor in my blazer is a 040 over 350,flattops,67cc world heads,crane 278 cam.bowtie intake,headers..it idles fine with a nice chop and pulls better than the carb did at mid to hi RPMs..but it took along time with the laptop in the rig with me driving around and wheeling on easy trails with it to get to this point..now that im at this point im happy..overall im happy with the holley setup..even thought about putting it on my olds...

cutlassefi

Pat I was speaking in general terms for those who might have an automatic.
The FAST is pretty much the same as the PJIII when it comes to control, that's why I recommend the Accel and Holley as they both make good throttle body systems. You don't need a "special" manifold for anybodys throttle body, you don't even need one for a multiport, just the addition of the bungs and fuel rails.

There is no more of an "Olds" setup for the PJIII as there is for the Holley, Accel or other. The ECM has no idea what brand of application it's controlling nor does it care. It's not a she or a he, it's an it.

An Accel TBI with the right size injectors will run you about $2500.00, that includes the pump, filter, throttle body, harness, sensors, Wideband O2 and ECM, complete, and I'm here to help.

As I've said many times, there is a boatload of either bad or incomplete info out there. Hopefully I can explain thru some of it.

Aceshigh

....with a 570hp 455 ??

I can't imagine how much torque but I'm guessing more then 600 ft lbs then

I feel sorry for that TKO if that's the case. Don't see it living long.

coltsneckbob

How do u convert a carb engine to FI? Do u have to drill into the manifold or the heads?? Just curious I googled this but found nothing very informative.

Aceshigh

Pull off the manifold + Carb and bolt in the new FI manifold.
http://www.mondellotwister.com/IntakeFuelSys.htm

Not many options for Olds motors though. Not enough interest for Edelbrock or Accel to do it.

Example picture.


There's also options like this.

coltsneckbob

So, then this system must somehow tie into the accel cable so it can adjust fuel. It must also tie into engine temp somehow.

Does one put on the original carb or just some sort of straight pipe to hold the air cleaner.

Does this system have an injector for each cylinder or it more like it just squirts fuel into a few select places in the intake with the expectation it will disperse evenly?

alphacharlie

Here is an option that you can also try, it is disigned specifically for olds

alphacharlie

It's available at www.massfloefi.com for $3999.00 and it comes with everything as seen in the previous picture.

cutlassefi

O.K lets try to set the record straight.

First of all no system, PJIII, Accel, FAST whatever knows or cares what it's controlling. The only difference between the applications is fuel and spark requirements/needs. The best way to explain it would be, remember in the 60's and 70's when GM used the same size 14x3 air cleaner element for virtually every one of their 4bbl carbed engines? When you went to the auto parts store to buy one, did the filter element know or care if it went into a 350 Chevy, 350 Olds, 350 Pontiac or a 350 Buick? No. Its the same with EFI.
And the only people that make an "EFI Ready" Olds manifold is Professional Products. Doesn't mean you can't use anybody's controller with it. Most all systems use GM/Chrysler sensors and IAC's, in that respect they're all the same.

I have dozens of global calibrations meaning the whole tune of every application I've done. Apples to apples the only differences are the fueling at cruise and parts of wot. For the most part at peak X amount of spark and X amount of Fuel will make X amount of hp, period.

Take a manifold, any manifold, drill and weld it for bungs, rig the fuel rails and go from there. On a true throttle body the injectors are already in there. But just remember when you use a throttle body you will, for the most part, have the same inherent issues with that than you would with a carb. If the manifold doesn't do well in certain rpm ranges with a carb, guess what, it probably won't do much better with a TBI. You're now just running basically an electronic carb.
On multiport things change because the air is not laden with fuel till the very end. And with the ability to control spark it's easier to "tune out" the bad spots that would normally occur with a carb in the same combination.

I hope this helps. If you guys get anything out of this please just realize that it doesn't matter or make a dam bit of difference who makes an "Olds" system, a good aftermaket controller doesn't care, it only does what it's told to do, whether its an Olds or a Yugo. That's where the capabilites of the ECM and tuner come into play. I've done, Chevys, big and small, my Olds, 440 Mopars, Fords, big and small, 8 stack systems, single 4 barrel air valved applications, single turbo, twin turbo, Roots blown and others both multiport and throttle body with the same ECU, no issues.

cutlassefi

That's a Chevy manifold in the pic and if they have an "Olds" system then all they're doing is installing the bungs in someones manifold for you.

I'm really trying to keep my cool here but wake up guys, please.

cutlassefi

As stated in the website they are converting an Edelbrock Victor, just like I eluded to in my earlier post. And if you have anything much over a stock cam they don't work worth a s..t. Plus among other things, you can only control the spark in a span of 20 degrees, they don't do fans without the upgrade and you have to get to 180deg in order for the fuel enrichment (essentially the choke) to shut off.

I try to stay on top of the competition. For the record I can give you a fully sequential system that does a whole lot more for about the same price, theirs is batch fire.

citcapp

Oops! fat fingers strike again 470-500 hp at the flywheel

Aceshigh

$4000 for a fuel injection system?!?!?!
Bend over.......not even worth it for that price.
You won't save enough on fuel to justify the cost even after 10 years on a big block.
God I remember the Pro-Flo systems were under $1800 not that long ago.

Cutlassefi IIRC is a dealer for Accel systems, and he's in this featured video on their webpage.
He sent me this awhile ago. http://www.accel-dfi.com/
I think he's probably the most qualified guy to ask about EFI.

I hope you know the torque curve though.

[Master of the obvious mode on]
All Olds 455's I've seen have obnoxious torque #'s to go with their much lower HP figures.
(Fun to play with, but God awfully bad for transmissions longevity if it hooks with slicks or drag radials)

If you have the stock rims that are only 7" wide or 8" wide.....can't remember.
Then I think it will be okay. But for me, when I put on 18" rims in my rear with 10" wide Nitto 555's
I can't even break em loose with 425ft lbs anymore. The rubber is VERY good for launching.

507OLDS

Mark summed it up pretty good. Once again,you get what you pay for.Your $1600.00-$2,000.00 systems are more basic,with not as many capabilities or functions.Some of them just have a throttle body,with 4 injectors,and a ECM that is designed to run those 4 injectors.The bigger systems run 8 injectors that are in the intake runners,and will also have more capabilities.A lot of the cheaper,self-programming systems do have a HP limit as well.Research that.Another thing to consider is that most EFI kits will supply everything to convert the engine & the ignition system,BUT you still need to do the fuel system.Just another thing to think about.
I run a a FAST XFI system with pretty much all Aeromotive fuel components,and a modified Victor intake.You could use a Torker or Port-O-Sonic intake to gain more hood clearance.

Oldsguy

Mark,

I always enjoy reading threads about fuel injection and your posts concerning this subject. I realize there is a lot involved and it seems to me that a well performing system requires sensors and a computer that can use that information to control spark and fuel delivery under all circumstances. I have one question regarding injector placement. Is there an optimal 'placement' for injectors which would give the best atomization of fuel into the ports? And I guess a second, follow up question would be this (made myself a liar there). If there is an optimal placement for injectors, is this knowledge provided as part of the directions in the system you represent? I am thinking here that if the answer to the first question is yes, then the 'application' could be different for every manifold.

cutlassefi

Hey Dan,

The best place to put the injector for the street is aiming at the backside of the valve. Ford was the first to optimize this, they were the first to be able to have their applications only be in enrichment mode (choke) for roughly only 45 seconds. At that point the intake valve is warm enough to atomize the fuel sifficiently to run at 14.7:1 or stoich. Look at the new LS's with the cathedral port, why do you think it's that way? But guess what, when you go to batch fire or TBI those benefits go away. Granted sequential is done that way for emissions as well but it also gives the benefit of more efficiency just about everywhere for a street application.

And on top of that why do you think newer cars don't need oil changes as often? 2 reasons, better oils and far less oil dilution from rich mixtures. That's why ring packs last longer today as well, less wash down. You don't see too many newer cars with 100k on them burning oil like you did in years past do you?

Now with that said for performance you want to move the injector up the runner. F1 puts them right over the bell stacks, why? Simple, at 18,000rpm there's only so much time to mix the fuel and air sufficiently before it enters the combustion chamber. But remember they use 2400psi of fuel pressure.

Most companies don't get into injector placement because there's too many variables, runner size, length, can you get to the back of the valve etc.

In some ways maybe a lot of you are right, or are you, older Detroit V8's weren't really made for EFI? Hmmm, maybe. Again look at the LS for example, it was designed from a clean sheet of paper and from the ground up for EFI, port design, injector placement, intake runner design etc. In fact they are so efficient that they need little to no transient fueling. What does that mean? Simple, in carburetor terms they would drive just fine with the no accelerator pump. Now when you install a 4bbl manifold on them that changes the dynamics, but in essence they need very little additional fueling when equipped with EFI in it's current configuration.

But even with all that it doesn't mean EFI has no place on older engines, quite the contrary. Imagine an Edlebrock headed Olds with the right injector placement, the added efficiency of the newer heads and an overdrive lockup transmission. I think it would be safe to say the benefits would be significant, I know I wouldn't trade mine for anything.

joe_padavano

Agreed, but for a simple EFI conversion onto an older motor, TBI or batch fire has the advantage of not requiring a crank position sensor. Yeah, it's probably not that hard to retrofit, but I'd guess that even TBI or batch fire is an upgrade from carb for street drivability. No question that sequential is better, but there's a trade of cost/installation simplicity.

cutlassefi

I agree and disagree Joe. Yes it's all an upgrade over a carb but to go sequential isn't that difficult if the ECM will do it. You can get a Dual sync distributor from Accel as I have that has both pickups already in it, or you can use a crank trigger, which has advantages on it's own, along with almost any standard electronic distributor and break 7 of the 8 teeth off the reluctor wheel and use that for your cam sensor, a very common practice.

joe_padavano

Clever idea. I hadn't heard of that before.

Oldsguy

Yet deceptively simple too!

Thanks Mark for the answer and Joe for the related comments. FWIW I will probably never end up using EFI on any of my Olds engines but who knows? If I get rich someday I may. In the mean time it's carb, manifold and distributor. I can live with the poor fuel economy, crappy cold weather behavior, and mediocre horsepower of a basically stock 455.

507OLDS

The better running conditions/mixtures that Mark has described are also why the modern piston/ring designs have much thinner ring stacks.No need for the thicker rings anymore,like the past.The modern engines are putting hundreds of thousands of miles on those tiny rings,and there aren't any issues.Just looks at the tune-up requirements as well.Most of the new stuff is good to at least 100,000 miles before they suggest changing plugs or wires.Yes,there are better plugs & wires today,but the efficiency of the engine tunes are what is really giving that advantage.
As for the injector placement,yes,like Mark said,make it hit the back of the valve.A fuel injector placement is different than a nitrous injector placement,which is usually higher up on the runner.If you look at any premade intakes,any make,the injector bung is as close to the bottem as possible,and in some applications,the injector is angled for optimum placement.
An intake like the Professional Products crosswind,with the bungs & rail kit,is suitable for most of the average BBO applications,but the high-HP/strip/race applications can take more benefit from a Torker or Victor.The Victor brings the issue of hood clearance with most cars.I cut 5/8" off the top of my Victor,and my throttle body is substantially shorter than a carb,and I did get it to fit under my hood,but barely.I took a massaged drop-base lower section,a 2" filter,and a filter top,to make it work.I really should have a different aircleaner system,but it's better than sucking in dirt.
There's a lot of different ideas about having EFI.You can have a basic system,that's enough to call it EFI,or you can have a fully tunable system,to custom taylor to your car,and they are priced accordingly.

joe_padavano

Well, not quite. The reason new cars go 100,000 miles before a tuneup is needed is because the gov't required that - EPA regulations mandated that cars be able to pass an emissions test after 100,000 miles (later reduced to 80,000 miles and then 50,000 miles) without any maintenance (a good choice, given the average American driver's maintenance habits). Similarly, the thin ring packs on newer motors are really driven by reducing internal friction for increased gas mileage. Same for the use of roller cams on pushrod motors.

Yes, the more precise mixture control that sequential EFI affords enabled these changes to be made, but the EPA and CAFE requirements are what forced automakers to incorporate them. It has really been a system-wide design upgrade. The EPA and CAFE forced automakers to improve mileage and reduce emissions. That led to reduced internal friction and sequential EFI, which led to the increased longevity and reliability. Emissions requirements aren't all bad. Of course, none of this would have been possible without the dramatic increases in computer processing power and decreases in computer costs.

cutlassefi

And the other things noted that were "forced" upon the industry.

507OLDS

OK,that sounds better. You can't have one without the other. Is their a chorus behind that?

joe_padavano

Amen, brother.