Are those the cadillac LS pills? I put a couple in an old econoline, it helped, some.

 

Understood, and I think based on how it does when it runs long enough to get the timing/carb back in the ballpark-that'll determine what I do next. More than likely however, I'll probably just tear the cover back off of it and reapply the gasket. If I can figure out how to do it without tearing all the things back out-that'd be a plus..but at the same time I doubt that'll be doable. If that front seal wasn't such a bear..I'd not think twice about it.

 

I bought my engine from Cutlassefi as well and had to change out the water pump soon after because of belt mis-alignment. We probably have the same timing cover plate. I did not use gasket sealer when installing the new pump and it leaked. I expected better since it was a new timing cover, new gasket, and new pump surface (I always sand the mating surface on a flat plate). I removed the water pump and put gasket sealer on both sides of the gasket, wire brushed the timing cover to super clean it, re-installed everything and no more leaks. Something about that timing cover was very non-stick without the gasket sealer.

 

I'm sure it wasn't meant to come across this way, but I just want to reiterate with my engine-it was not from CutlassEFI. As much help as he's been in explaining things during this whole debacle, I at least want to make clear that the issues caused by assembly shop errors were not him. This engine was assembled locally (Dayton, OH) using parts purchased both directly by me, as well as parts purchased from machine shop & assembly shop.

With that being said, I feel like the only sealer on the paper gasket was on the timing cover side. Even then though, I'm sure it'd been tampered with enough times that there's no telling how it actually sealed vs just kinda smudged out of the way. During disassembly, there seemed to be quite a bit of grey sealer around the gasket, and there was even some on the bolt threads. I'm assuming that was just incidental from putting the bolts in where the sealer had compressed out due to the weight of the cover.

 

I guess I should also make a clarification. I was not implying that Mark made an error, only that the timing covers were probably both from the same supplier and may have trouble sealing without a true gasket sealer. They may have some kind of stamp release coating on the steel surface that resists mild sealants.

 

I'm curious if I can take the bolts out and just knock the cover back enough to clean the surface again and reseal with a new gasket/more sealer. If not, getting the balancer off wasn't a task (especially once I got the right depth socket). It's just that dang front seal that sucks.. lol

 

Just to clarify, you put the pump on with sealer on just one side of the gasket?

 

No. I'm talking timing cover & block. Pump was not removed from cover. Fluid is not leaking from Pump to cover.

If I remember correctly, sealer was applied to the backside of the cover, then the gasket was placed on the sealer-but nothing applied to the block

 

I think sealer on both sides of a gasket is good practice.

 

I would agree after this instance, ha!

 

I used to spray GM High Tack on both sides of the cover gasket and water pump gasket. I would let it set up for the recommended time and then installed. I then let the sealer set up further after install and before filling the coolant. I just kept working on other items while it was setting up. Some like to use sealer others don't. New cars they advice against seal as it interferes with the gasket doing it's job. Today you have so many choices of sealer on the market making it a task just picking a sealer.

 

Ironically, I was talking with Pops a bit last night and he goes "ya know, we didn't put anything on the block side of the gasket, that's probably where its leaking." I wanted to welcome him to the party (also because I mentioned that when we were installing it but he swore there wasn't any on what he removed) but figured that just helped solidify my feelings of needing to take it back off and do it again. I'm not thrilled about it, but it is what it is.

I went ahead and ordered another gasket set last night, and it should be here in the morning. In talking with the wife about other small things that need attention with the car, I may just go ahead and have a local shop quote it (along with the other things) and if it's reasonable just go ahead and schedule it. If it's not reasonable, well it shouldn't take nearly as long as it did before.

 

Well, I was on the fence about doing the timing cover gasket myself, or just taking it in to a local shop and have them address a couple other things that I've been scratching my head at..but the wife talked me in to working on that gasket this afternoon.

I'm not gonna say that was a mistake, but I am going to say that I shouldve just went ahead and scheduled it in elsewhere.

I was feeling pretty confident about it sealing well, but trying to get that front seal lip on there has pretty well trashed all confidence I have in it. It is currently still apart, and have gone ahead and ordered yet another gasket set and Ultra Grey. To add to it however, I got underneath to start taking things apart and noticed about a quart of Transmission fluid on the ground. Not sure where it's coming from, but it definitely didn't help the situation at all.

 

The trans leak could be nothing more than the dipstick tube o-ring. When a car sits for a while all of the fluid drains back to the pan and when the fluid level gets above the o-ring it can and will leak.The reason it takes a little while to leak is it takes the convertor time to drain back.

 

Ya know, I swore that was a real thing and about a year or so ago was told that was a myth. Ironically, I'd had an issue where fluid was actually running UP the dipstick tube and out. Similar situation, the car was on stands in the front, and it was late January/early February when that happened last year. I do feel better if that is indeed what happened again (though not thrilled about cleaning all of it up again)..but that just puts me back to the frustration of this dang front seal. I'm going to go out this evening and clean everything back off and in the meantime try to figure out how the heck to get it on there without cutting the seal. The last one, Pops trimmed the ears as noted elsewhere on this forum, but at the same time the wife brought up a good point about trying to get the rubber gasket warm so it was a bit more pliable. I may try that with the old timing cover if I have time tonight, just out of curiosity.

 

Alright, take 2.

After being swamped over the last couple weeks, I finally have the car back together. So far-no leaks..but the true test will be once it fires up and starts cycling coolant through the engine. I'm hoping to do that within the next couple of days, and at that point I'll finally get to work on setting its baseline tune again. From there I'll just need to change the oil, verify the trans leak is the converter drain back (and add fluid to make up for what came out) and I believe this will finally be over.

Still shooting to have exhaust done, then throw it on a dyno to allow professionals to tune it..I just want to make sure it's done leaking before scheduling all of that.

 

Any difference in how it runs? Best of luck on everything going smoothly.

 

Not sure, though when I fired it up the couple times before tearing everything back apart..it did seem to shake less at low idle. I think I'm more antsy to figure that part out, than to just go out and drive it..haha.

 

This is the most mixed up diagnosis in a while on here…there’s been some doozies.

once you got the dial indicator on you said it was 29deg retarded from the cam card..then you said you may have screwed that up, it’s maybe 1.5 retarded ..so you said you’ll maybe advance it 2.

that’s when you stopped everything to do with why you took it apart and went right into worry about a leak.

what did you end up setting it at?

 

Quick clean up...
In the process of removing the crank bolt, the crank moved from TDC slightly-but enough to cause the initial 29° off. I was unaware the crank had rotated, so assumed I was going from TDC at the time.

I then reset my process, and tried to find TDC via piston stop & wheel, but for some reason wasn't grasping that at all..so I went back to the tried and true method that Ive used for years and its never failed-a dowel. Once resetting to TDC, we swapped the gear set and noticed the dots on the original were about a half tooth off from lining up. With the new set in place and lined up on 0, we put the dial indicator on the pushrod for INT #1, and monitored how far the wheel moved until the dial indicator read. 050" and compared it to the card. That put us pretty far off as well (16° IIRC).

After multiple phone calls throughout this extravaganza, I went out one morning before work and noticed while I hadn't touched the car, the indicator was no longer on the pushrod. So while at work I went though my process again and realized I made a mistake. So back to TDC we went when I got home, then backed it up further BTDC and reset my dial on the pushrod, then performed the test again. After getting the the reading showing we were 1.5° off still, I made another phone call and confirmed that the gearset needed to be advanced 2°.

As we were putting everything back together, a leak arose..which has led to the last page or so. Thats on me as I probably should have just started another thread-but to me they were part of the same job so it stayed the same thread. I am literally just nice weather away from firing it up to get the air out of the coolant system and start the baseline tune/verify vacuum is where it should be. We went from 60° weather to 4" of snow in a matter of days, so it's kinda pumped the brakes on my progress.

 

Alright, got off work at a decent time tonight and opened the garage up to fire the car up. Ran it for about 10-15 minutes, enough to be confident that the coolant was flowing and the system was air free. So far, no leaks.

I did notice though that the alternator belt was flopping around, so not thinking anything about it..I just slid the alternator on the bracket a bit more. I fired it up again to see if it was charging, and realized the belt had come off of the PS pulley..which was not only the reason for it being so loose, but also the culprit of the squeal.

Picked up a new belt after dinner, so hopefully I can get off work in time tomorrow to beat the rain and fire it up again to make sure I have the belts tight enough (they are all on the appropriate pulleys now). Then I'll work on that baseline tune and get it to where it's happy, and pull vacuum readings since the roads are still covered in salt (don't want to drive it around until we get a good rain or two to wash that off)

 

Forgot to update this Thursday, but I went out after work and changed the oil. Then I fired it up to check for leaks and figured I'd throw the timing light on while it ran. I noticed it was set at 10° BTDC, so I bumped it back to 14° and it ran a bit better. For giggles i threw the vacuum gauge on it and it was rock solid at 7hg. So after a moment of dejection, I realized that I was once again associating cam timing and ignition timing.. even though it's been said multiple times that they're not related.

So hopefully tomorrow after church i can get home and put the ignition timing back where it was originally and see how it acts.

At the very least, this adventure helped eliminate a variable.

 

Normally it would run better at 14btdc than 10. I’d leave it at 14 as long as your total is within reason.

 

it did run much better at 14 than 10 (well, idle anyway.. too much snow & salt to drive it yet) but before this I was at 18 IIRC based on total timing of 32.

I'm hoping the snow melts enough so I can at least get out of the garage today, and set it back to where it should be.

 

Just went out and retimed it. Good news-it runs pretty dang good. Bad news-best I can get is 8hg vacuum.

I think theres still plenty to make up with the tune, but I don't expect to see much more vacuum than that. But, at least the variable of the cam being out of time has been resolved.

 

To ALL, this is another reason why you do it upon assembly.

 

x2

 

Can you post a picture of where you have the vacuum gauge connected?

 

my main go-to is the port on the intake that the transmission modulator goes to.

 

Ok. I wanted to ensure the gauge is connected to manifold vacuum, not ported vacuum. An engine that only develops 8" of vacuum but runs well is counter to my experience.

 

Yeah, in short..I dont get it. if drive ability is fine (all thats really left to test is on/off/on a few times consecutively) then I'm just gonna live with it. I've wondered if maybe it's an intake problem, but plugs are consistent. I've also wondered if it's due to not having headers, but that too seems like a bit of a stretch. I can't believe it's overcammed based on the amount of people with similar builds having no issues..but I'm checked out. If it runs fine, I'll leave the vacuum gauge in the toolbox and move on with life.

 

Something you could do, is put a different timing curve in it. Weights to give more initial timing should give it more vacuum. An aftermarket distributor with a fully adjustable timing curve will help. Also what are you running for vacuum advance? How are the brakes with such low vacuum?

 

I have the original distributor, which has been rebuilt & recurved by Ken at Everyday Performance. I am running 18* initial, 32* total IIRC (currently at work and the total is a bit fuzzy). The only time I remember 'really' having an issue with the brakes is when we were lined up to get into the July 4th car show. The line was pretty decent sized, so I was on the brake or letting it idle forward a lot. Eventually it got to where it was starting to just lurch forward as I was holding the brake, so I just started throwing it in Neutral while we were sitting.

I'd love to say my vacuum gauge has been wrong this entire time-but I've had 3 different ones hooked up..lol.

 

Congrats for taking it apart, replacing the timing set, and putting it all back together correctly. That is a huge accomplishment. If it actually runs better afterwards, that is a win! Don't let perfect become the enemy of good. If it runs good, drive the hell out of it and enjoy it. You can make improvements to the tune along the way to making it perfect.

 

This is mentally where I'm at..haha. I can't think of anything else that'd be a reason as to why it'd have such low vacuum, but if it runs & drives well-and I can start/stop multiple times (something it struggled with last year) then I'm good.

 

Well that answers my next question.
I'm sure you've already provided the cam specs, but once more please.

 

 

Oh boy. That is a fairly radical cam. I'm not sure how much vacuum you can expect. Advancing the initial timing 2* at a time to balance performance and ping and exprimenting with ported vs manifold vacuum advance is all I can offer.

 

I'd be looking for a vacuum leak. That will screw everything up. I don't think 223/235 is that radical. My 236/242 would pull about 14Hg on a gauge. I would check the 247/252, but it's not in the car.

 

Can't find one. I've exhausted that hoping for the quick and easy fix.