TORTUS

Short history, bought the car (70 442 Vert) in January with hopes of driving it for a while before any rebuild was needed, so much for that plan. Luckily the car itself is in good shape, don't have to mess with paint and interior, just drivetrain. Block is not #'s matching. It ran fine, but most of the seals were toast and it leaked oil from almost everyplace, rather than chase oil leaks I decided to pull and rebuild.

So I decided to build a stroker, I have already purchased the 496 kit from Dick Miller Racing and it should be arriving today. I also added a girdle and stud kit, along with windage trays he recommended. The next stop is the machine shop, I picked a reputable shop here in the Phoenix area and am confident in their abilities. So now that I have made my choices for the short block, it's time to move on to the long block, that's where I could use some advice.

I plan to go hydraulic roller cam and lifters, but have little knowledge about cams and cam specs, and how they come into play with all of the other factors, like heads and intake (see below), trans (Turbo 400 w/Dual Gate), converter (??? Stall), rear gears (Chevy 12 bolt, 3.73 Posi). Any advice here would be great.

I currently have Ka heads, but found a set of C heads for a good price and I plan to run those, rather than pony up the $$$ for Edelbrocks. I will be adding SS valves (2.07 Intake, 1.71 exhaust) and hardened seats, along with having them port/gasket matched to my intake.

My current intake is the Offy Dual Quad setup, ported and polished by Mondello's with two Ebrock 750 CFM carbs. I also have a Torker intake I could use. This is one piece that's really up for debate, dual quads look good to some, but don't always perform well. I like that the intake has already been worked, and would carb down to probably 500 CFM carbs with a progressive linkage. I've also considered the RPM Air Gap, but don't know if it will fit under my non W30 hood, does anyone know if there are clearance issues with the stock hood and the Air Gap?

For ignition I currently have the MSD 6AL, and MSD distributor that has a "Cryo" sticker on it, I'm guessing the previous owner did a lot of business with Mondello. If I end up going single carb I will change out to an HEI setup for the simplicity.

Exhaust is Hooker Comp Headers, ceramic coated and 3" true dual.

I realize I just laid down a bunch of data, I'm hoping it's enough for some of the more experienced folks on here to add some insight.

Do you see any issues with my direction so far? My goal is a very fast and fun street car, I'm not concerned with mpg or ET's. I am trying to build for torque and don't plan on ever using power adders.

In summary, Cam?? Intake?? Heads?? Converter stall?? Anything I'm Missing??

Also, It's an AC car with Power disc brakes.

Thanks for any help you can provide! I have been lurking and searching for a while, but haven't found a build similar enough to mine to not start a new thread.

cutlassefi

O.K. I'll jump in here.

First of all don't waste your money on any of the stock iron heads. Just buy a set of Procomps and be done with it, there's easy hp/tq there at the same cost. Shoot for 10.25-10.5:1 compression.

I offer custom rollers but if you can use a better converter (2500 stall or so) then I'd do about a 238/246 @.050 on a 112. That'll give you a broad power band, good enough vacuum and you won't need to worry about low end torque, you have 496 c.i.

I wouldn't have bought all that stuff from Dick Miller, you paid way too much for it. You could have used the extra cash to buy a set of the new Edelbrocks. Just my opinion.

Use the Torker with a 950 Holley or Quick Fuel. Using that dual quad will only cost you about 40hp. And no reason to switch to an HEI if you already have a good distributor.

Again just my opinion.

TORTUS

Thank you for your input CutlassEFI, you are one I was hoping to hear from and definitely want to discuss a cam with you.

I should provide more info on the block, it was already .030 over and the crank was already turned enough that it would not be a good candidate for a stroker grind from what I understand. I realize there are less expensive ways to build a stroker if you can reuse your crank, use some Chevy rods (after some machining) and so on, but I liked the idea of buy one kit and be done. I can't undo what's already done so I have to move forward there.

As for heads, I'm not dead set on the C heads, I can get them bare for $150 and will build them from there, I'm still waiting on a total price for the heads to make my decision. I haven't heard or seen tons of positives regarding the ProComps (Chinese metallurgy), and have also heard that the Edelbrock's often need a valve job straight out of the box, so around $2000 total. I am not saying any of this absolutely true, that's why I am here to get opinions.

I want to run on pump gas, is that possible with the aluminum heads and 10.5:1 comp ratio?

I don't have deep pockets, but I have some money set aside for this build and have some flexibility. I only want to do it once.

I appreciate your advice on the intake, 40hp is much more than I care to leave on the table. Any input on the Air Gap for this build?

Thank you very much!

ah64pilot

I wouldn't waste my time with a 496 if I was going to put anything less than Edelbrock heads on it. It doesn't make sense at all. I made the same power with my 468 that some other guys have made with their 496's. Don't end up paying all that money for the bottom end and then slack on the top...that's where all your power is.

468 & 496...only 28 cubic inches which is going to yield minimal power difference UNLESS you let it breath. Go Edelbrocks, they don't need valve jobs right out of the box...they are gen. 2 heads now and have been improved over the initial released heads.

507OLDS

If you do end up using iron heads,keep the smaller,stock size exhaust valve.This will allow you to run an even bigger intake valve,like a 2.11".You shoudl also do a fair amount of portwork to the heads,to help them breath,but then again,you are getting close to the price of aluminum heads.As for the intakes,the dual-quad gives a nice look,but for better performance,the Torker or RPM is the better choice.Both of them will fit under your stock hood.You are building a nice cruiser.A convertible,with AC & power brakes,so you're not getting real crazy with a cam.Stan Kryla's 496 has unported iron heads,W30 intake,Q-jet,mild hyd roller cam,and the factory W/Z exhaust manifolds,and it made 500hp/540ft-lbs.It is in a 72 convertible,with power brakes,AC,and all the other luxeries.With a better intake/carb,heads,and exhaust,you can go up from there.

cutlassefi

You're welcome. But make sure you machine shop does this right, align hone first, then square deck it and if you can, bore it .060 by locating off the deck and honing with a torque plate. Good luck and keep us posted!!

firefrost gold

http://highperformanceolds.com/phpbb...php?f=1&t=3806

507OLDS

That link is for a hotter 496,but it gives you some more ideas.

firefrost gold

why is it hotter other than the heads ? (And Yes thats a big factor) From what I read Bill said it had a small cam ? I would think if he has his intake done and the heads he could for what 3 to 2500 be in the same range with his current parts ?

firefrost gold

http://highperformanceolds.com/phpbb...php?f=1&t=2675 here is the engine Brian was talking about. Sure is nice looking .

507OLDS

Yes,that second link is for the engine that I installed in Stan's car.It is more than enough power for him.
The 1st link is another step above Stan's engine,but there is still a lot more to be had from that one.

TORTUS

Thanks everyone for contributing. On my mobile so it's hard to address every post, will get to that tomorrow. A short update, the block and rotating assembly are at Duffee Motorsports here in Phoenix, I have heard nothing but good about them and feel very confident after spending time talking with the owner.

I'm happy to see that good numbers can still be achieved with C heads, I may still go with them for various reasons.(that can also serve to leave me room for when I'm "ready for more" down the road, I can add the edelbrocks then) I have also decided to run the Edelbrock Air Gap for my intake. Cam and carb or EFI is still up in the air. More to come...

Thanks!!

TORTUS

Finally back in the game on this one! Time for a lot more questions for the experts here.

I have my block back from the machine shop and will be starting the assembly soon. So far I have the full rotating assembly (496 stroker kit), re-worked C heads, and Edelbrock RPM Air Gap intake. My next major purchases will be Hydraulic roller cam and lifters, and carburator. I have heard I should have selected intake after cam, but it's too late for that, so now I need to make a good choice for a cam to compliment what I already have.

I'm just planning on this being a street car and only see the strip once in a while.

Some of the other questions I have are regarding a lot of the 'In addition to" parts and pieces.

I will likely add a RobbMC mechanical fuel pump, do I need to up the fuel line size from the tank? If so, does that also involve a new sending unit with larger diameter lines? What's a good way to go about this step?

Do I really need to add the oil restirictors? I have read on this a bit and it seems they're only necessary at higher RPM's, which I don't plan on.

I plan to use a Milodon 7 quart Oil pan, what else should I plan on with that? HV oil pump? Pick up extension?

I'll leave it at that for now, but I am sure to have more questions along the way. Now that it's time to build I will be more active here and will provide updates.

Thanks to all who contibute!

oldsmobiledave

Good luck with yoru project.

Just an FYI the C heads are no better than the Ka heads that you already own.

TORTUS

Thank you. It will be fun and I'll learn a lot. Just like I've already learned that I could have done a couple things differently so far, can't change that now, just try to be smarter moving forward. The C heads are now much better than my Ka's were. Still not Al, but maybe add those in the future.

VORTECPRO

Just curious, who machining the engine? The heads are the cork in your combination, you need to find someone who can work your heads, and get it right. In Phoenix I would reccommend Oliver Papp. Factory heads done right can easily get the job done. You might want to CK out my G head port and flow test in the big block section. Allways dyno test your engine after its built, money well spent. Ive seen that tunnel ram make power, but not sure its a good idea for your appplication. Heres a copy of my worked over G head flow test, as you can see they get all over a out of the box Edelbrock.
Had a chance today to finish my cylinder head test. I started out with a virgin set of small valve G heads. Tested on a 4.155 bore, SF 600 bench @ 28 inches, Brezinski flow adapter. Flow bone stock: .200/122 .300/172 .400/196 .500/209 .550/215 .600/220 .700/226. Same head ported 2.072 valve 45 degree seat: .200/156 .300/210 .400/247 .500/267 .550/270 .600/273 .700/278. Installed a 2.100 valve with a 45 degree seat, more porting, :.200/158 .300/213 .400/251 .500/270 .550/274 .600/275 .700/278 .750/282, @ full lift, retainer hitting the guide flow was 298.5. For now Im done with these heads, but I would like to try some more valves shapes in the future. Picures of the test can be seen on my 455 build thread.

VORTECPRO

With mild hyd roller cam, factory intake, Q-jet, factory heads, dyno test, notice the power peak, despite the 4.500 stroke, also notice how the HP carries somewhat after the power peak, notice the BSFCs starting to get funny at 5900 RPM. 437 HP observed in the room HP with a 29.29 baro. This is how its done, nice build whoever did it.

cutlassefi

So 8-10cfm at .500 and above is "all over" a set of out of the box Edelbrocks? I posted the flow numbers for a set of Edelbrocks that had nothing but a minor bowl blend and valve job and they were within about 5% of your numbers with the same valve size. I wouldn't call that "all over", anybody else call it that? Not to mention the better combustion chamber on the Edelbrocks. How well did the exhaust flow on yours, I didn't see those numbers?

And why is it that this dyno sheet posted reflects a much more realistic bsfc than the BBC you claimed made 519hp? This one used 18# more fuel but made over 35hp less at peak, hmmmm how can that be?

And anybody who knows dynos like you claim to knows that you always throw out the first and last number of the pull as they are rarely accurate. That why at the EMC they start the pull at 200rpms before the minimum and end it 200rpms after the max rpm. But you knew that right?

VORTECPRO

Again I keep trying to tell you, fuel flow is measured from observed data, not corrected data, my dyno sits at 6400 feet, any fuel flow numbers are taken from the actual HP being made at 6400 feet, also I use two channels, one the front bowl, one for the rear bowl. So when you test in Florida your observed HP will be higher than it is in Colorado at 6400 feet, thus using more fuel. My question to you is: how much observed HP did my 467 make, and the data to determine that is right there on that sheet. An Edelbrock flows 270 @ .500 out of the box, your data say something different, take a hard look at my .300 and .400 number. If you take your observed HP and compare it to my observed HP (@6400 feet) you will find that my more efficent engine used 190 compared to your 195.

cutlassefi

Yes your .300 is better by 10%, however above that much less so, less than 5%. And you're comparing a fully ported head vs one that has a little bowl work as well as being tested on a different bench. Not sure that's apples to apples.

And what about the first rpm and last rpm in the pull? Do you count those in Colorado cuz no one else does.
Just sayin.

VORTECPRO

Mark, its up to you, feel free not to count the first and last number, its really no big deal. As far as my 2 benches go, both are calibrated with square edge oriface plates. No engine builder into what they do want to lie to themselves with data, see my stuff has to go to the track, and the results speak for themselves...... just saying

507OLDS

BTR did Krylas's 496.I was there for the dyno session,then wrapped it up,loaded it in my truck,hooked onto his trailer with car in it,and took everything home to do the complete swap.The 70 E-heads on that were not ported at all,and still had the bumps in the exhaust ports.Bill was conservatibe with the cam,since the car will be(is) a driver,with all the creature comforts,cruise down the highway with the AC on,etc.

VORTECPRO

Nice build! Its all about getting with the right people. Who did the Q-jet, that was a nice piece as well.

cutlassefi

You missed my point. I was comparing your bench to the one used here in florida. The gentleman who owns Champion race heads has 2 benches as well and one will read higher on the intake and lower on the exhaust than the other. The heads he flowed for me were all done on the same machine.

J-(Chicago)

Rather than looking at raw numbers from 10 different machines, Let us look at percentages of increase. As both of you gentleman know, readings tend to vary. I try and stay away from exact numbers when posting results.

Hoping for 12's , 11's ,10's or 9's in the 1/4 mile is usually a good enough ball park. I save the exact measurements for the engine components.

Flow benches let you know if you went in the right direction with your cuts, and dynos work great for tuning your carb.

Dool Cat

Tortus

I just built a 488 utilizing an Eagle cast steel crankshaft, Edelbrock Heads, Air Gap Intake, 10.25:1 CR, hydraulic roller cam, roller rockers and made appox 600ft/lb torque and 500 HP. I have power brakes and it idles great and has great street manners.

There was not much extra cost part wise and I would not do anything different with the exception of having my Edelbrock heads CNC ported if my budget would have allowed for it!

TORTUS

Dool Cat,

Thanks for bringing it back to topic. Sounds like a similar build to mine except for the heads, wish Edelbrocks were in my budget but they're not right now. One day.

What cam did you go with?

What carb, size and brand?

Did you keep mechanical fuel pump or go electric?

Stock size fuel lines?

Thanks!

Dool Cat

My builder selected a thumpr cam, i was some what hesitant from everything you hear on forums and contacting a few builders. I would say that he selected this based on my entire combination.

Holley 870 SA

Mech fuel pump

Stock fuel lines

507OLDS

When building a stroked 455,compared to a regular 455,you can really benefit from a custom-ground cam.When you change the stroke,you change the piston speed,among other things,and the cam can be designed for that.