Ok...so I finally broken down and found a salvage 455 to start a build to replace the OE 350 in my 1972 convertible. The motor was in a running car that was totalled. I am sure that I will have lots of questions of the coming months, but the most immediate is to see if anyone can assist in helping me to ID this motor. I did a fair amount of research in the tech pages of 442.com but I am now a little confused by the combination that I have.

The block is casting number 396021F which I believe puts it in the 71-72 range. What is odd is that it has J heads on it which I "think" put it more in the 1973+ range. So question 1 is to see if anyone has any additional insight as to the likely year of this core / combination.

Question 2 - are J heads worth machining or should I look at aftermarket? Most of what I have seen puts the earlier heads in the more desired category.

My end goal is not a race engine, but rather a very over-powered ice cream getter for cruising around town....with the option to get busy when I want to play. I plan on headers, more agressive cam, Edelbrock intake, etc...The car is otherwise very stock so I won't be doing anything too radical with the engine. Ideally an OAI hood will be in the post engine swap future.

Thanks in advance. Always appreciate the input!

 

Your first problem...

And now we know why...

Again, that site has many known flaws. The F casting block was used from 1968-1972, with documented uses well into the mid-1970s, so an F block with J heads COULD have come from the factory. Of course, rather than speculate, just look at the VIN derivative stamp on the block. That will tell you EXACTLY what model year the block came from, and if it's earlier than 1973, you know it was not born with J heads.

J heads can be ported to match the flow of other heads. This will likely cost far more than just buying a set of aftermarket aluminum heads.

 

I agree with all that Joe has said. Except how much you will notice the difference between a stock 72 350 and a 455. The difference even if it is a mid 70's smog 455 is amazing. For the uses you mention, I suggest freshen it up with a mild build and go with stock dual exhaust manifolds over the headers with a good flowing exhaust and you will be very happy. Headers sound good but, are a total pain in the butt. They leak, get loose, reduce clearance and just are a pain. Stock dual exhaust manifolds work very well and don't compromise ground clearance and don't come loose over and over causing leaks if installed correctly.

Just my two cents.

I would guess you have gears in the 2:73 range too. Actually these are also nice for just cruising and reliability. If you don't plan on much highway cruising you can get allot of performance "feel" from a gear swap.

Hope this helps
Larry

 

I would be hesitant to buy aftermarket heads. I've heard many folks say that the Eldelbrock heads don't flow much better than stock heads (I assume the C castings). Just find a set of C heads you can buy on the cheap. Then have new valve seats put into them and put roller tip rockers on them (you would still be under the price of aftermarket Edelbrock heads).

 

You're kidding right?

You can get the Procomps for about what you'll have in restoring a set of irons.
They're lighter, allow you to run higher compression, flow a little better than the stockers, take a more popular plug style and have better combustion chambers.

Did I miss anything? This is a no brainer.

 

Joe, point taken on where I found the block info...I should have checked in here first for sure.....Tech sheets sure looked impressive, but lesson learned! According to the guy that I bought it from the car was a Olds 88 which he believed was a 72-73. I obviously found the casting number and J on the heads. Where is the referenced VIN derivative stamp on the block?

 

On the driver side, left of #1 under the head.
There is a small machined pad with
the #'s Joe speaks of.
It will probably be covered in crusty oil and dirt.
The pad is app. 1X2".
Scrape off the gunk with a putty knife, and then
a little emory or lite sandpaper, you will see them.

 

The second character of the VIN derivative is the model year.

 

Can we please put this VIN stamp and maybe some other common ID cues in a sticky?

Most folks can find the car's VIN tag and body tag

Sticky should show how to find:
Engine and Trans VIN stamp
Trans ID tag
block casting ID
Block date ID by distributor
Engine Unit number on pre-68 and 68+ models
Carb numbers, both round tag and later stamped into corner models. How to read the date code.

and maybe
Intake ID and date
Water Pump ID and date
Exhaust manifolds' ID and date

 

Joe - thanks for the photo. That was very helpful. The number on this block is 33M368605. Based on what I have been able to find I "think" that this would make it a 1973 block from the Lancing plant. Does that sound right?

 

You don't have to "think", it IS a 1973 model year motor from a Lansing-built car. That explains the J heads. It will also have soup bowl-sized dishes in the pistons.

 

Thanks Joe. I planned to replace the pistons regardless with the rebuild so that part should be ok. It looks like the biggest issue here is with the J heads. I'll do some looking around for some earlier heads and see what I can find. Edelbrock is aways out there, but that is a lot of coin. I'll need to see what the rest of the inside looks like once I tear it down and get some machining estimates before I can decide on heads. The budget may dictate a bit...

 

My end goal is not a race engine, but rather a very over-powered ice cream getter for cruising around town....with the option to get busy when I want to play. I plan on headers, more agressive cam, Edelbrock intake, etc...The car is otherwise very stock so I won't be doing anything too radical with the engine. Ideally an OAI hood will be in the post engine swap future.
================================
Methinks you are talking yourself into a lot of expensive parts and work that the engine doesn't really need, to accomplish your stated goals. If you have a $6k+++ budget, go ahead and redo everything.

If you want a simple reliable refreshed 455 then you can probably use the original bores and pistons and have plenty of power for your needs. And low enough compression to allow you to use relatively affordable 87 octane fuel. You would have to dismantle first and assess the condition of the bores and pistons.

Edlebrocks are perhaps better known, but look at these for $1100 a pair [?? ad is unclear if the price is EACH or PER PAIR]:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BERNARD-MOND...0c61c9&vxp=mtr

Even if you get C heads for free, you may find that your machine shop tab will be this high or close to it by the time your C heads are ready to run.

 

Point taken...much appreciated...and yes the budget is a big consideration with this. I have not researched piston changes post '72 so I have very little to go on. Are '73 smog pistons different / usable for a good street build? Keeping the compression reasonable is a good idea as I know that the BB will be harder on MPG than the already dismal MPG of the 350 4BL in the car now. :-)

 

What mileage are you getting?

I'm getting 15.3 mpg on the highway at 70-80mph, down to about 11 in traffic.
I haven't tried a steady 60-65mph ("Just can't drive 55"), but I'd bet 16-17.

Oh, and that's in a '73 Delta with a 3.08 rear, with bad aerodynamics (top down), that weighs about 1,500 pounds more than your car.

- Eric

 

My son and I replaced the 350 in our convertible with a mild 455. Also replaced the 350 trans for a T-400. I don't think there is anyway you will ever regret switching to the 455. FYI, you can use the 350 engine frame brackets that came on the car, you just have to use 350 engine mounts instead of 455 mounts when you put in the 455. The mounts have the same strength, so no worries.

 

I built a 455 with completely stock J heads (just a freshen up on them) and I wouldn't call what that engine was a "slouch" by any means. I had it in a 70 Cutlass S post with 2.56 gears (posi) and 300'- 400' burnouts were EASY. The car ran a best a 13.89 @ 97 mph going through the traps in 2nd gear. With a decent gear that was a low 13 sec or high 12 sec car....with junk heads on it. Would it have made more power with different heads.....yeah. But I wasn't looking for it and those did the job for me just fine.
If you are just looking for some ground pounding and maybe making some tires scream in agony once in a while I wouldn't even sweat the heads. If you think you'll want more out of it.....find some different stock ones or even some aftermarket aluminum heads. It's all in what you want to spend on it.
I think 20 years ago I dumped less that $2000 into my 455 including machine work. Bore/hone, cut the crank .010/.010, resize the rods and had the pistons installed on the rods. I didn't line hone or deck it....I was poor...lol.
I put something like 30,000 miles on that before I sold it.
Just remember it's all about the combination. Get parts that are designed to work together and you'll have a happy engine. Don't get an RV cam, a Victor intake and a 600 vacuum secondary carb.

 

Svnt442 - thanks for the note on the heads. The first machine shop that I called was hesitant about using the J heads. It sounds like you had really good luck with them. The guys wants $400-$600 depending on ultimate needs to work over the J heads. I have the motor torn down and ready for the machine shop now. Frst thing's first, going to get the block in to validate that I have a good foundation...which I think I do. After that the heads are the next big decision. This is a budget build I am going to need to pick my battles. Thinking bigger cam (will need some advice later), new lifters, aluminum intake (replace the smog intake)...either Edelbrock or the W reproduction, and bigger carb for sure. I'd be real interested in any additional feedback on the J head issue. I am very torn.... I'm looking for a strong motor with a bit of a lumpy idle that runs well and can break them loose should the need present itself. I won't be racing it or beating on it too hard.

 

With the budget in mind.....stick with what you've got. No real need to go buy some heads and throw tons of dough at them when all you want is a nice sounding engine with enough torque to spin the Earth in another direction.
Seriously I think you'll be happy with a rebuild on the heads to make sure you have a good starting point and some assurance that they will last you a while as well. Then, if at some later time you get the more power bug, invest some time and money in a new set of heads and all of the related hardware and go HAVE FUN!

 

I appreciate the advice on the heads. The motor is at the machine shop now. Guy is telling me that he feels very good about making good power with the J heads. He is doing some port work, mainly on the exhaust side to remove a lot of that extra material added in 1973. He's reasonable and I will be well under the cost of aluminum heads.

I have another question as I continue the planning for the build. I am interested in eventually moving to the OAI hood. In planning for that I see that Edelbrock is indicating that the 2151 manifold won't work with the ram air hood without modification. Has anyone had any experience with a good manifold that works with the ram air set up?

I'll post some photos as I get started on the assembly. I am sure that I'll have plenty of questions. So far the only decision made was the cam. I went with the Comp 268. Dropped the springs and small parts at the shop Friday so he can assemble the heads. Once the bore size is finalized we'll figure out pistons.

If anyone has input on the ram air / manifold question I'd sure appreciate it.

 

I got the 455 back from the machine shop this weekend and have started the assembly process. I went with the Comp Cams XE268 cam / spring kit.....and I have a question. I am a good way from being ready to install this engine, but I'd like to see if anyone has any experience with break in on the XE268. Comp's instructions call for removing one of the valve springs OR installing lower ratio rockers for the break in period. Is this really necessary? This sounds like a pain and expensive respectively for the two options. I plan to run their break in oil on initial startup. I haven't heard of folks having to do this in the posts I have been looking at. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

If you have a cam with fast ramps, it is essential to break it in under reduced pressure conditions.

It is easier to use lower-ratio lifters, but cheaper to use only one spring per valve.
If they recommend both, then either way should work.

- Eric

 

Using lower ratio rockers is great for a Chebby where many ratios are available and parts fall from the sky. Not really an option for an Olds.

Removing the inner valve spring for break-in is both common and highly recommended in today's low-zinc oil environment. It's not particularly difficult if you have one of the compressed air adapters that screws into the spark plug hole. It's even easier if you use an engine run stand to break-in your cam.

 

So today I am starting to assemble the 455 and I have run into a problem. I went to install the XE268 cam and went almost all of the way in just fine, but it stopped cold when the last journal hit the front cam bearing. It is tight as hell. I rotated it a few times and it was quite obvious that it was not about to go in. When I pulled it out it had obviously scored the front bearing. Has anyone ever had this issue? I called the machine shop and was told that many times some slight polishing is required to get these cams to fit properly. Any insights?

 

Insights? Yeah - two of the cam bearings have been interchanged. The cam bearing IDs get progressively smaller from front to back. Somebody installed the wrong one at the number 1 position and the number 1 bearing is somewhere else in the block.

The number one cam journal is 2.0365"-2.0357"
The number five cam journal is 1.9565"-1.9557"

Each one gets 0.02" smaller as you go back. THIS is your problem. "Burnishing" is BS. The machine shop owes you a new set of correctly installed bearings.

 

I don't think it's possible to put a bearing in with 0.020" interference fit on a ~2.0" bore. It would mangle the shyt out of it. ONE thou per inch diameter is a tight interference fit.

While I have gotten cam bearing sets with two of one size, it was obvious- each one falls thru the larger hole and cannot be installed in the smaller holes. They can get nicked, canted, or otherwise damaged during the install, and need to be replaced or repaired in place. Take the block and the cam to whoever installed the cam bearings, and have them do what is necessary to make it right.

 

Airflow isn't the answer to everything. The quality of airflow (think air velocity) is far more important. Thats where the aftermarket heads shine. If airflow was the most important consideration the huge valves, intake and cylinder head runners and enormous carburetors would be on everyones engine.

 

Quick update on the cam situation. I hauled the block back to the machine shop for a review of the bearings. With the scuff that I applied to the number 1 bearing that one was replaced again with the verified correct bearing. Shockingly, still the same issue with just a bit too much interference for that last journal to go into the front bearing. I got Comp's technical department on the phone and was surprised to hear them tell me that some polishing on the cam journal might be necessary commenting on the age of the block etc. The machine shop confirmed that they have done this from time to time. With just a slight polishing on the cam it now fits like a glove.

It's going together well now. Installing the 1442-kit rocker set up this weekend along with the front cover and water pump. I'd love to get it painted, but that will have to wait. I read about Hirsch paint in another thread and after talking to them bought the 455 blue paint from them. Seems this stuff is very temperature and humidity sensitive and in my part of the world the shop is now too cold to hold over 60 degrees for two days. Paint will have to wait.

I am starting to look at distributors now. Thinking I want to convert it to HEI. Anybody know if the standard tach will work correctly to the tach connection on an HEI distributor? I am looking at a Summit unit as I don't think that I need anything much over stock.

 

More progress…..new HV oil pump is installed, bottom end is buttoned up, and oil pan is on. Got the new Comp Cams rockers installed and the preload all set on the valves. Looking forward to starting work on the intake, carb, and ignition when funds allow!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99610205@N07/11041719705/

 

Engine got paint today. Used the Hirsch paint - I think that it looks great! one of the valve covers is perfect, the other got some orange peel so I'll sand it a bit when dry and hit it again. So far the Hirsch paint has worked like advertised. Hoepfully it will look this good once I run it and heat cure it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99610205@N07/11124119103/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/99610205@N07/11124122033/

 

Ok - the 350 is out and I'm getting ready for the 455 next weekend. I have a question for you guys that may seem dumb, but I'd like to avoid finding an issue later. I trashed a couple of the torque converter bolts pretty bad getting them out. Oreilly didn't have anything that would work (all much longer), but I found good looking grade 8 bolts at the hardware store. They are 1/4" longer than the original. Anyway, question is whether anyone knows if this little extra length will cause a problem or not before I get them in? The reach on the original bolt was 5/8". The reach on the new one is 3/4" or 6/8".

Photo link is here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/99610205@N07/12782389753/

The photo of the engine coming out is unfortunately blurry as I was a little excited that it actually came out without too much issue!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/99610205@N07/12782578063/

 

As long as the bolts don't bottom out in the converter before they are tight the longer bolts will be fine. You could use a cutoff wheel to cut the bolts to match the original length.

 

Or just buy them for about $4-8 a set from O'Reilly, Advance, AutoZone, eBay, or .

- Eric

 

Well….The 455 is in and I am starting to get all of the accessories and such put together. I have run into a problem that I could use some direction on. I installed the power steering pump and made sure to put the spacer behind the bracket where it bolts to the block as well as the spacer (washers) on the botom front bolt. This appears to be on right and aligned. I then installed the upper and lower alternator brackets and the alternator. Here is the problem…. there is a 1 1/8th inch gap between the alternator bracket and the power steering bracket. I don't have a good picture of the removal, but I believe that these were bolted together on the 350. I don't see any way that I could have the brackets on wrong as the upper bracket bolts to the head and the intake - very straight forward. The bottom one to the exhaust manifold and the back of the alternator.

The set up looks very stable, but something is not right. I am thinking I need to devise a filler / spacer and bolt it between the two brackets, but I don't think that I should have to do this. Are the 455 brackets different than the 350? I thought they were the same so I am reusing the 350 brackets. The alternaytor assemblhy is definitely further from the crank as the old belt is a good 2" short now.

Here is a photo of the overall set up.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99610205@N07/12865471035/
I failed to get a good one of the gap in the brackets as the weather here has turned nasty to night and I had to bail out of the shop.

The rest of the day went fairly well. The only issue thus far is the exhaust. I bought the W30 manifolds from Thornton. It is good to go on the passenger side - bolted right up. On the driver's side the pipe it is about 1/4" short of hitting the manifold in the right spot. Midas welded up the American thunder pipes so I'll have to nurse it up there to have it lengthened once break-in is done. I bolted it up, but it will leak like crazy.

 

Need more pictures...



- Eric

 

The deck on the BBO is taller than on an SBO, so yes, the head is about 1" further away. Since the PS pump bracket bolts to the block and the alternator bracket bolts to the head, the distance between the two will be an inch greater than on the 350. Yes, you need to fabricate a spacer and use a longer bolt.

 

Another try at the photos…

Thanks Joe!

 

Got the 455 running yesterday. Cam break in went well and so far so good. I have some additional tuning to do. I used the XE268 comp cam in it. For the moment I set the timing at 10 degrees which I think is stock. Anyone have any information on the best timing setting with the aftermarket cam and Edelbrock intake?

One last question. I went with a Jet Performance stage II Rochester as I wanted a stock look. It runs well however once hot it does not want to idle in gear. I have the base idle hovering at 1000 rpm. When still cool, choke off, it will idle in gear. Once hot it won't. I tried to do the idle mixture setting per the instructions from Jet with a vacuum gauge but it honestly jumps around too much with the cam to tell me much. I notice little difference whether I run the screws in or back them out. When I run them both in it does want to sputter out. I'm not sure how to best set it or if it might be part of the hot idle problem. Thinking I need a good base setting recommendation and leave these alone. Is 2-3 turns out on each about right? Any better way to set them accurately?

I did not install the small spacer plate that came with Edelbrock intake as it did not appear visually to need it. Could this be part of the hot idle issue??

 

Fiddled some more today with the idle issue. I looked again at the spacer from Edelbrock and actually think it would make things worse so I kept it off. Ran the idle mixture screws out a total of 5.5 turns each and it idled in gear while warm.......for a while. I drove it around and once good and hot it again was failing to idle. I backed them out another full turn each with no luck, then back in 1.5 each with the same result. I let it sit for 30 minutes and it worked fine, again until good and hot.

I am open to any suggestions!!

 

Did you clean or replace the PCV valve? A bad or dirty one will cause idle problems.