olds4life

hey olds nation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! alright i just but a 68 conv parts car with a 455/ 4 speed tranny. how can i tell if the tranny is a muncie. the engine casting is 396021 with H heads. i know its a big block but the casting number script is smaller than the script on the other big black that i have. what would H heads have come on. thanks for any help given! One nation and thats Olds.

2blu442

The H heads were 1971 W30 only, very rare! Check the transmission to see if the vin number stamped in it matches the block. Also check the bolt on items such as the carb and distributor for numbers. You may have some real treasure there! Would you post the additional numbers and maybe photographs? John

svnt442

Check the block for a machined pad just below the "H" on the drivers side head for some punched numbers. If it starts 31MXXXXXX it could be an original W30 engine. The 1 just determines it as a 71 block, but you just might have an interesting find.

Those heads are worth a lot to the right person trying to restore a 71 W30. You may have gotten REALLY lucky.

Warhead

H heads?
Is this for real?
What are the casting #'s on the intake, exhaust manifolds, and transmission?
What air cleaner/carb do you have, and how complete is this?
Jim

olds4life

thanks for the response and help. it has an aluminum intake and double pump holly carb. i will check the trans numbers and stamp in the head and manifolds. thanks again.

2blu442

We are axiously awaiting to see if they are H heads or if like the rest of us your memory may have slipped some between looking at the car and getting to your computer If they are G heads that would make them standard heads for 1971 455's a much more common casting.

About 12 years ago I purchased a 1976 Cutlass because it had an older 455 with "F" heads on it. So anything is possible with these cars that people have been working on over the years. And being the eternal optimist that I am I became excited at the idea you may have found H heads on your new project car.

Back to your other question, the Muncie transmissions can be recognized by the side plate on the drivers side of the car. The Borg Warner looks similar at a glance, but if you compare the side plate to a muncie they are easy to tell apart. The best way for you to do this is get on ebay and find some good photos of the two transmissions. Print them off and crawl under your car and compare them. It has to do with the shape of the side cover and I believe the number of bolts that hold it on. John

olds4life

hopefully you guys can see the pics of the H heads, w/z manifolds and the small script 396021 F engine casting.

2blu442

Hoo Chi Mama! you got treasure there my friend! Do some research to decide their value before someone offers to buy them. Seriously, you can sell them and have a nice bankroll to start restoring your car with. Also, I'll snap a picture of a muncie for you to compare to your trannie. You'll want to check the vin number of the engine block with the vin on the transmission and if they don't match then the vin of the car with the trannie. I believe they started stamping the transmissions with a vin in 1968.

olds4life

thanks for the help. i couldn't get to the tranny. i will have to move it to a better location to get under it.

2blu442

Here's a couple photos of Muncie transmissions. The first shows the side cover with 7 bolts holding it on and flat across the top and bottom. If I remember right, the Borg Warner has 9 bolts that hold it on and it's rounded across the bottom, kinda sagging low in the middle. I have one of those in my garage but wasn't able to dig it out this evening. The second picture is one from a 1970 Chebby that shows the date code (starting with a P) and the vin is in smaller numbers just above and to the left of it. This is located on the passenger side and back near the tail portion of the trannie I think the Oldsmobile put the vin in a different location. I had a 1972 442 with the correct transmission and I believe the date code and vin were stamped in different places on the main body of the transmission. If this is the W30 transmission it may be a M22 instead of an M21, but the only way I know of keying those out is by opening up the gearbox and visually looking at the teeth. John

P1010307-1.jpg
P1010313-1.jpg

wmachine

Okay, so the intake and carb are aftermarket, but the rest of the engine can still be a '71 W30. As svnt442 said, we need the number on the machined pad.
And the trans info of course. Yes, it could be an original M22 "rock crusher" if mated to a '71 W30 motor. And it could also have the very rare double disc clutch!!!

olds4life

wmachine, what is something like that worth. how much are the heads worth. thanks

svnt442

To the "right" person they could be worth upwards of $3000. BUT....That is also depending on condition. The market is REAL funny right now, so don't put that money in the bank just yet.

olds4life

31M183417 is stamped on the pad below the H head

olds4life

wmachine how can i tell if its double disc clutch. i will get it in the air tomorrow. i don't plan on selling it. i bought it to put it in my 68 conv 442 that came as a stick so i wanted to go back as a stick. the engine runs fine and doesn't smoke. i also found some scoops in the trunk of my 442. how do you know if they are real. i didn't see any numbers on them.

Warhead

I am shocked, but these things do show up.
W/Z manifolds did not come on 68's. X/Y's did.
C heads should be on a 68, LOTS of those around.
I love it when someone puts the valve covers on backwards.
You have a rare piece there, it could pay for the whole job, and then some.
GOOD FOR YOU!!!
Jim

svnt442

You may just have a 1971 W30 engine and trans there. That could pay for a lot if you wanted to do up an engine.

I missed the backward valve covers. I guess they think for some reason it's to clear the brackes or something. Paying attention is extra I guess.

scrappie

That is a great find. Make us all a little greener with envy and tell us how much you paid for the parts car?
I have a 71 442 conv. that I thought about making a w-30 replica but just assumed the heads alone would be way out of my reach, never mind the 4 spd too. Let me know if you need a kidney or something, maybe we can talk.

olds4life

hey olds nation. i paid $700 smacks for the car. it has some good parts. the parts car is a 68 conv cutlass that i need parts for my 68 conv 442. i found this number on the muncie on passenger side P1C11C. what does this indicate. i will pull the engine and tranny out this weekend and open the tranny to see if it is a M22 or M21 so what should i look for once its open. i would like to thank all you scholarly gentleman for educating a younster(40) like myself.

scrappie

According to my book P1C11C:
P= Muncie
1= 1971
C= March
11= 11th day of the month
C= M22

This date code confirms 1971 Muncie M22 close ratio to go with your engine. You lucky dog.

2blu442

So the next step is to verify the vin number on the transmission and engine match. John

olds4life

pulling engine and tranny tomorrow.

svnt442

Dude you mave have scored a gold mine. Both a 1971 W30 engine and trans!! You lucky DOG!!

csstrux

What are you doing with the car when you are done?

olds4life

this number came off the passenger side of the tranny as well 3088336.

wmachine

I concur, 100%!
A M22 rock crusher for sure! Very cool!

olds4life

i hope these pics show up.

wmachine

Do I read those right that they match?

olds4life

yes sir, they do match. can someone tell me if this tranny is a 4 speed muncie. the code is P9P03.

2blu442

The odds of you buying a 1968 parts car and getting the engine/trannie combination of a 1971 W30 is waaaaaaay out there! But we're happy for you! My reference book shows 920 W30's built in 1971 and we can only guess how many of those engines got fragged at the drag strip.

I can't see any photos of the other transmission your asking about. But looking up at the references posted on this thread it sounds like a 1969 Muncie transmission. The last digit should be a letter though. Can you post photos of that trannie?
John

olds4life

thanks 2blue. i have a gentleman telling me it is out of a 67 442. i thought it should have a letter at the end. he should be sending me pics.

wmachine

Huh? You previously said the number was P1C11C.

olds4life

wmachine, i am talking about a different tranny this time. one is P1C11C and the other is P9P03. i am having the gentleman send pics if possible on the second because it is not in my hands there fore i can't see it.

wmachine

Whew! For a second there I though you went from fortunate to insane!
Unfortunately, that P9P03 sequence does not make sense for a Muncie. The 2nd P in particular. Can't decode it as is, and I can't even guess what it should be.
I'm still waiting for you to drop the bellhousing to see if you got the "hat trick" with a double disc clutch.

MN71W30

Wow, You must be living right. I'm trying not to get jealous but it ain't easy.
Thats what makes this hobby fun, knocking one out of the park!!

olds4life

wmachine, tell me what i need to do and look for and i can do it tonight when i get home. might as well complete the cycle. thanks

wmachine

Should be pretty obvious. I'm not even that familiar with it, and would have to dig to get any pics, but there are 2 clutch discs in the clutch, not just a single disc.

Yellowstatue

A double disc clutch (W37) has a floater flywheel in between the two clutch discs... the discs are also 10" diameter and less effort to press the pedal...

StickW31

Nice Find!!!!!
good luck with the sale