My wife and some of my friends think I'm crazy but some people just don't understand the primal man urges that make us Classic car enthusiasts tick. Here I am taking a perfectly good engine out of my 442 and have sent it to an engine builder (Fataz, in Brisbane, Australia) to upgrade to a few more ponies. They will pull it all apart, clean it, upgrade it, repaint it. Woody from Fataz said he would call me when he has it pulled apart and let me know how it looks internally (potential to cylinder bore, and how many thou, after sonic tests) I will update with this info when it comes in.
Many will question my choice of spending all this money on a 400 g block. Asking me, why not just upgrade to a 455? Well I have a mostly numbers matching car that i would like to keep as close to original as I can. I am keeping the engine stock in appearance to the novice. The only outward changes will be an Edelbrock performer intake which will have the Edelbrock logo removed from it, and a Rochestor with electric choke. Otherwise its original looking.
I don't know how many extra H/P i will get and I don't really care. I will definitely get some but don't know how many.


Most of my parts were sourced from Cutlassefi. Here is a list of parts so far. The major things still to get are the new pistons.


CAST HEADS WILL BE FULLY PORTED
REBORED TO MAX ALLOWED, GOVERNED BY CYLINDER THICKNESS
EDELBROCK PERFORMER INTAKE
LUNATI ROLLER LIFTERS SET
LUNATI ROLLER CAM 278/289 Advertised duration
227/231 at .050
Lift is .565/.563 with 1.6 rockers. It will be ground on a 110 lobe seperation with 2 degrees advance in it.
TIMING CHAIN GEAR
ALUMINIUM ROCKER COVER SPACERS 2
EXHAUST MANIFOLDS STOCK LOOKING BUT WITH INCREASED SIZE OUTLET
ROCHESTER 4 BARREL CARBY ELECTRIC CHOKE (1970 455 CARBY) WILL BE UPGRADED TO SUIT ENGINE.
OLDSMOBILE 425 CONNECTING RODS 8
16 ROLLER ROCKERS GOLD ANODISED FROM MONDELLO

 

good luck sounds like a nice project

 

cutlassfi knows his sh**

 

Absolutely:d and Thanks

 

I have not done alot of research on the 68-69 400s. But what about using a 425/400 steel crank in it? With a better bore/stroke ratio you have a better chance of your engine lasting. Might as well its only internal. Other then that. Your build sounds bad a** !

 

Photos. Do you think I have enough strapping on the motor??????

 

Good point F-85. I will ask fataz and cutlassefi what they think. Thanks for the advice.

 

Photos.

 

I would up grade your rods to a set of after market rods. I'm also a fan of the 400G block. The stock rod is to soft and will stretch. You should pick up Bill Trovato's book on how to build a Max Performance Olds V8's. Before any work is done give this book a read you might want to send your engine builder a copy. Bearing clearance is very important on the Olds big block. This is covered in the book.

 

The book is already with Fataz . I know that Bill says that the original rods are worth replacing. I might yet do that. It all depends on how far we are going to bore the cylinders, and what H/P we think we might gain. I'll keep you updated.

 

Good luck with your build, I look forward to seeing your build progress. I also plan on a 400 G block in the future.

 

Thanks mate

 

Are you on the sunshine coast BC ?
Bill Trovato might be able to have CP pistons made for your build at a non custom price.
Give him a call when you know your bore and comp ratio.

 

Sorry mate, thats the Sunshine coast in Queensland

 

Since you're talking about keeping it stock looking I'll throw this out there. I don't know if this is true about 69's but since they are so close to 68's you should check your air cleaner clearance. I can tell you that a Performer with a 68 air cleaner rubs the hood (and that's without the under hood pad). The hood will close and everything will align but it just doesn't quite work. I would check the 69 and if a modification is necessary take about 1/4" off the top of the intake (or whatever your mock up shows you)

 

These are 7" rods. Stock pistons in a G-block need 6.7" rods. Are you using custom pistons with a different compression height?

 

Sounds like it is going to scream and look totally stock, I have the same cam in hyd in mine and it ran great, I might upgrade to that roller in the future. Keep us informed on your progress!!

 

Yes Joe, the rods are there if I need to go to different size pistons. I'm thinking Mopar pistons, as there is greater availability and more choice.

 

Hey Raisy I have a G block that a machine shop screwed up and bored it out 030 over and of course the pistons have to be custom ordered and I was wondering about those mopar pistons do they have ones that will work in our G block and how much are they. Any information would be appreciated.

 

There is a lot of hp in the right piston and the cost of pistons is small when you look at the overall engine build cost. Same thing goes for rods.
Before you go stick a Mopar piston in your 400 G block email BTR he posted on my 400 G build on high performance oldsmobile that he may be able to do 400 G pistons in CP's in a non custom piston. When I'm ready I will be using CP pistons they are a work of art.

 

Guess what, that CP piston is made from the same material and uses the same ring pack as some other lower priced pistons.
If you can make it work without going to a higher priced custom piston then why not.

 

cutlassefi you know more about engine building than I!

Is it not more than just material ? Is it not about how it is engineered, skirt design, weight, valve relief location, compression height, piston to wall clearance, quality control?
When you buy a piston that is made for your engine is there not less machining to make the piston work in your engine? When you use a mopar or other brand of piston in your engine is there not excessive decking , valve relief location problems, piston pin fit issues, etc ?

 

Good luck on the build Ralsy!

 

Thanks paratrooper. Interesting discussion between cutlassefi and Bernhard. Rocketdave you need to use the Mopar pistons with the Olds 425 rods to have the correct height. Talk to cutlassefi about the Mopar, Olds 425 rods combo. He is the one who suggested it. Cheers

 

I'm not trying to be negative.
I have had problems in the past with the 400 G block spinning rod bearings.
The rods played a part in this problem as rpm increases the rod stretches and takes oil clearance away.

Good luck with your build I look forward to hearing more about it as it progresses.

 

The G-block 400 uses the same crank, rods, and bearings as every Olds 455. Why is this a "G-block" problem? In fact, the G-block uses small diameter, lighter pistons than a 455, so this problem should be much more pronounced in the larger motor.

 

This not just a 400 G block problem its a olds big block problem.
I have had both 400 G blocks and 455's
I always felt the 400G spun up quicker I have no proof of this just driving experience from owning then.
The point was it was easy to over rev the 400G
Yes it should not stretch as much because the piston was lighter.
You spend all this money on a new engine and have old rebuilt rods and a piston that was not made for the engine.
How much of a savings are we looking at?
Not trying to be negative I just don't see the savings I would just rather save else ware.

My new car a 69 442 4speed had the engine spun rod bearings when the original owner had it at the track the engine only had 60,000mi on it.
There seems to be so few 400G's left in the 68 and 69 442's because of rod bearings spinning, I have no proof of this just a observation when looking through the classifieds.

 

Sorry, but the engine neither knows nor cares whether it has expensive custom "Olds" pistons or Mopar pistons. All forged pistons have essentially the same material properties and the same expansion rate. What matters is cylinder-to-wall clearance, compression height, mass, and to a much lesser extent, shape of the top of the piston.

Of course, the number one thing that impacts the engine is the intended use. A street motor that never sees more than 5,000 RPM has very different needs than a drag motor that is run to 6,500.

 

By the way, I'll add that if one is building a motor on a budget, I would absolutely recommend cutting corners on the reciprocating parts and instead put the money into the cam and heads.

 

Yes, but to clarify;

The Mopar piston has a flat top. Olds engine rarely need valve reliefs for moderate builds. Ever seen any valve reliefs in any stock Olds piston? I haven't.
The .984 Mopar pin is normally about 30 grams lighter for some reason than the .980 Olds/Pontiac pin. That also gives you the opportunity to make sure you have the correct pin clearances, whether press fit or floating.
When you do the math if the compression distance, rod length and stroke all add up correctly it doesn't matter what the piston is "supposed" to be for.
And yes CP is nice stuff. But an Icon piston for instance is the same material, nearly the same skirt design, uses minimal clearances and has good flat ring lands. That's what's important.

And X2 on what Joe P said as well. Also let's not forget BTR is a CP dealer, but I'm not an Icon dealer. I'm just one for being open minded.

 

I would not cut corners on the rods or pistons. There was a time that I would have but I have had a change of mind on this topic.
I would try and save money on using painted stock valve covers and used parts like oil pan, intake manifold and rebuilt stock distributor ,Q jet carb, engine paint, and flat tappet cam.

 

Thanks Bernhard I think your dead right on the 400G their are very few of them left and my block only had 57k on it and was in perfect shape and the machine shop got the blocks confused and bored the wrong one!@#$%# anyhow now I have to get new 030 pistons and I am going with eagle rods and a steel crank, then I hope it will last and I am not going to trash it.

 

There is a lot of HP in the right piston and ring pack. No the piston does not no what brand engine it is going into but if you have the wrong comp height, valve reliefs, piston pin size and you have to pay the machinist to make it work what have you gained? There is a reason CP pistons cost what they do you are paying for a piston that you know is right out of the box, you do not have to jack with them to make them work. Pistons may look alike but the only way one will ever know if one is better than the other is through testing. The reason I like them is because the racers have nothing but good things to say about them not just one engine builder. There are other pistons that are just as good but I would have to have them custom made. I have a post on High Performance Olds and Bill said that he might be able to do a 400G in a CP in a non custom piston that is why I posted over here to let any one that is thinking about a 400 G build to give him a call. I will be sonic testing my old 400 G later in the year to see how large a bore/piston can be used.

Ralsy I did not want to hi jack your thread just wanted to pass on some info good luck with your build I look forward to updates.

 

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...70668735_n.jpg

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...63557226_n.jpg

 

Great photo Raisy, please keep us informed on your progress and how it runs!

 

So you've made up your mind. That's great. It's your money, spend it any way you like. I like to keep mine.

I'm very confident in my personal ability to read a catalog (and a micrometer), perform simple math, and select pistons that have the correct compression height, CR, pin diameter, and valve clearance without paying a premium for someone else to think for me. Obviously if one isn't capable of reading a catalog and performing addition and subtraction, then one should spend the extra money to have someone else perform that service for them. I prefer to keep my cash in my wallet, but that's just me.

By the way, just because "racers" use a product doesn't mean that it's the correct or most cost-effective product for my street cruiser.

 

Joe you are making this personal when it is not!
I do know how to read a micrometer have since grade 9 and how to do the math. Racers do know what they are talking about so do good engine builders that's why I keep quiet and listen to what they have to say. You can build a street engine anyway you like that is your right and I'm sure it will be fine. But I thought this engine was more of a street strip build.
The price for flat top CP pistons/pin and rings $680 to me that is good value. What is the cost of Mopar piston/pin/and rings in a quality piston?

Joe I would like to thank you for all the good info you have posted on my 69 442 questions threads.

Sorry again for the hi jack thanks for the picture up date.

Bernhard

 

 

No, I'm not and I'm sorry if it comes across that way. I was, however, reacting to this comment:

I'm sorry, but DUH!

Obviously when combing through catalogs looking at non-native pistons, one would only consider such applications that DIDN'T require expensive custom machining. It turns out that there are more of those than one may originally think, and the cost savings can be significant if one is careful in selection.

 

Gday. Update time.
I talked to the Engine builder today. He has sonic tested the block (piston bores) and says that it can be bored out to 4.00" which i think gives it 427 CI?? It apparently will still give us room later on, if needed, to take it another .030".
This info should give allot of people who are planning on rebuilding their 400 G blocks some encouragement. There seems to have been allot of discussion / speculation on how far you can safely bore a 400G block. I think I was lucky that my block was in such good condition. This may have been due to the fact that it seems to have had the correct radiator coolant ( not water ) its whole life. So there was virtually no water jacket rust issues.
Cheers