Ray74

I have a 1960 394 high compression engine that was stuck and I had a machine shop bore it .030 over and I assembled the engine with new parts. It has a squeak in the engine that I cannot resolve.

The squeak sounds like a rocker arm, value guide or even the arm on the fuel pump/vacuum pump because the squeak is a “squeak squeak pause, squeak squeak pause” and it is in time with the cam rather than the crank, (cam only turning once for every time the crank turns twice) When the engine is started cold there is no squeak after a minute the squeaks starts low and gets louder as the engine warms up. This squeak has remained the same since I started the engine for the first time.

I have not been able to tract down the squeak. I thought the squeak was because of low oil pressure or volume to the value train but I have rules out that. I did take the car over to the shop that did the machine work on the engine he listened to the squeak and felt it was a bad hydraulic value lifter. He did not think it was any kind of bearing and I should drive it for a couple hundred miles and the hydraulic value may fix itself. I did that and it still squeaks.

I have built a device to push down on the value springs which allowed the removal of the push rods. I removed the two push rods on each cylinder, one cylinder at a time. I would start the engine each time and after doing all 8 cylinders the squeak did not change. Thus, the squeak cannot be the value guides, the rocker arm, or the hydraulic value lifter. I have taken the fan belts off to make sure it is not the water pump etc. still squeaks. I took off the fuel pump/vaccum pump and still squeaks. (my first thought was the fuel pump/ vacuum pump because that is what it sounds like, the eccentric cam coming around and pushing on the arm of the pump and it also sounds like that is where the noise was coming from)

One interesting items is when I had the push rods out one cylinder at a time and then I would start the engine two of the hydraulic valve lifters squirted out oil like a fountain and the other 14 did not?

The only items left to squeak is the cam bearings, timing change, or the bearing in the bottom part of the engine. This engine has a new cam, cam bearings, news hydraulic valve lifter, new timing chain and sprockets, new main, rod, wrist pins, pistons etc. I would take this engine apart and fix the squeak if I know what to fix.

Any suggestions.

Ray

OLDSter Ralph

Ray, that is a puzzle. I am sure some others will chime in with their thoughts. I am thinking a "squeak" sound would be more likely caused by steel on steel than steel/cast iron. Something could also be loose and that would make a "squeak" sound.

Olds64

I recently did valve train work on my 71 98. I had a squeak that was coming from the pushrod rubbing against the guide plate. I have the aftermarket adjustable roller tip rocker arms on my Olds.

Since the 394 has shaft mounted rocker arms I would eliminate valve train noise by dousing each pair of rocker arms with oil while the engine is running. Just make sure you use cardboard to shield the exhaust manifolds from the oil spray.

Oldskeeper

Hi Ray,
My thoughts are that the distributor is causing the squeak and it's the only part left that you haven't checked.
Good luck, I just did a cam and lifter swap in a 64 394 and looking at it after reading your post this is the only thing I can think of.
Steve

Greg Rogers

After buying a stethoscope to try to find a noise on a engine, and trying other ways to find a rattle or exhaust leak or squeak, I found that the stethoscope was just about worthless. I then found a simple piece of 1/4" or 5/16" vacuum hose works great if you stick in in your ear- ( not too far!) and move the other end around as the engine is squeaking. It really works good. Try it, good luck and let us know what you find!. Greg.

lansing

Check the back side of your harmonic balancer to make sure it's not rubbing on the front motor mount. Had this happen to a 63 with worn out motor mounts.

Ray74

Good idea I will pull it out and spray oil down the opening and re lube the distribute. We what happens.
Thanks
Rich

Ray74

I purchased a stethoscope too and you are right it did not help. I will try the vacuum hose.

Thanks
Rich

Ray74

I did not think of the balancer I will look there and see if if can be rubbing.

Thanks
Ray

Tedd Thompson

Quite often in a Oldsmobile the back plug with a .40 thousands hole is replaced with a non holed new one when the shop does a rebuild. This hole oils the distributor. I Guess it could cause a squeak but I've never heard of one doing that but worth checking if all else fails.... Tedd

Ray74

I checked out the harmonic balancer and it is clear and not rubbing on anything. Tried the vacuum hose to narrow down where the noise is coming from but I could not get figure out anything. I do think the vacuum hose works better than the stethoscope I had purchased.

I removed the distrubutor and oiled things down inside but it did not change the noise. Earlier, I used an endoscope to see down in the distrubutor opening to make sure there was a plug in the oil galley. But I could not tell if the plug had a hole in it. The endoscope is not that clear. Is there away to figure out if the hole is there in the plug. Also how much of a wear problem would it be if that small hole is not there to oil the distrubutor gears?

I am completely stumped on this problem, I have had friends over that are well qualified with engines and took it to one mechanic that understands these old engines and no one has any ideas what it is. It is frustrating because the engine starts easy, idles very will, runs good, has plenty power, no other problems.



Ray

Tedd Thompson

Some engines have what looks like a 3/8 inch pipe plug with a hole in it, others have two what look like soft plugs one which is holed. Usually you can see the hole with a dental mirror and a strong light. This may be a waste of time but you are there you might as well check it out....Tedd

matt69olds

I know nothing about the 394 engines, is there any way to spin the oil pump driveshaft with the distributor removed? If so, look down the bore where the distributor sits, if the oil hole is in the pipe plug you will see a stream of oil spraying the cam gear.

Cut open the oil filter, if there is metal on metal contact causing the squeak the evidence will be there.

Does the noise change when the trans rains is in gear? Does it change depending on engine load?

If spin the oil pump, make sure you have oil coming from all the pushrods. You may have to rotate the crank to get oil holes to line up to get oil out of every pushrod. Once again, I know nothing about the shaft rockers on the 394

Ray74

I caught a sample of oil and sent it off the Blackstone lab and they found higher then normal metals in the oil but they also said it all looked normal for a new engine.

In the process of assembling the engine and before I installed the intake manifold and the push rods I ran the oil pump and I had oil coming up through all the hydraulic valve lifters. Just recently I removed the push rods two at a time and then start the engine doing each cylinder one at a time and the noise did not change.

The noise is not impacted by the transmission, in or out of gear. The noise is more noticeable at lower rpm and seems to go away at a fast idle. Or course the engine noise from higher rpm may cover up the noise, but it is such a slight increase in rpm to have the noise reduce I think it is affected by rpms. Load or no load does not seem to change the sound.

I am going to do more investigation on the oil hole for the distrubutor.

Thanks for your ideas

Ray

BillK

Ray,
Any chance it is the fuel pump itself ? A rhythmic squeaking like that probably is not a rotating bearing like cam bearings or main and rods. How hard is it to pull the fuel pump on your car ? Can you pull it and start the engine ? Maybe hook up some type of gravity feed can to the carb temporarily ?

59-59-59

Is there any way you can put up a video so someone can get a better idea of what’s going on?

Ray74

One of the first things I did was removed the fuel pump/vacuum pump and started the engine and it still squeaks. And I even did it again later because I just keep thinking that was the sound.

Thanks for the idea.

Ray

Ray74

I will try and get some video with sound Not sure if I can make it happen. Maybe borrower a smart phone.

Ray

matt69olds

Does the 394 engine use a oil slinger/baffle (like the later Olds engines) over the crank snout? I’d be curious why you don’t have oil through some of the pushrods now.

Tedd Thompson

Depending on how long the engine was run it takes a long time for a first generation Olds to come up to full oil pressure on all fore corners. It doesn't oil from the push rods but through the rockers. And it will never sling oil around the engine bay in a disorderly way with the valve covers off..... Tedd

BillK

Its really hard to guess at this without listening to the actual noise but the way you are describing it I dont think it is an engine bearing, distributor or something that rotates internally.

Do you have access to a lift ? If so get the car up in the air and listen around the bottom. I have heard flexplates make weird noises if the are bent and rubbing on something.

Also how about an exhaust leak ?? If the car is an automatic and you power brake it does the noise get louder ? I have heard exhaust leaks sound just like bad lifters before. Many people have been fooled by them. Might take two people to try and find it. Look all around the exhaust manifolds with a bright light and a mirror and see if there is any trace of exhaust leaking.

chequenman

Ray74, I've heard of someone many years ago with a similar squeaking noise, and the 394 He had rebuilt had a Rocker Arm shaft installed upside down or 180 degrees out of it's correct position for adequate lubrication of Rocker assemblies. I always thought there was a Pin that kept the Shaft in correct alignment though!!

Ray74

I have hopefully uploaded two videos of the engine noise.
Ray

Ray74

I was able to upload this picture. I am reviewing the instruction for this site to see what I am doing wrong with uploading a video.

Ray

Greg Rogers

Sweet looking car, Ray. I'm sure you will get the squeak figured out. Sure seems baffling though....

Vintage Chief

Ray - You upload a video in the exact same manner as an image. The video will embed into the post as an 'attachment'.
NOTE: The video must be smaller than 5MB.

Tedd Thompson

Or you can make a you tube video and cut and paste it to a thread/ reply. Tedd

Vintage Chief

^^x2^^

BillK

Wow, 5MB is about 2 seconds of video on my phone. Shoot half of the pictures I take are 3MB I just did a test 10 second shot and it is 22 MB I guess you need some type of editor to reduce it.

Vintage Chief

You aren't going to be able to upload any lengthy videos w/ a 5MB upload limit. This limit was tested several times via my own testing routine when I made the new How To Post Pictures/Images thread. I doubt the CO site is optimized to address the large amounts of data space required to store video files on a back-end DB - especially for a free forum site. Most attachment files will be & are .pdf files, Word files, .txt files and the like. Some files depend on the video file itself, not all video files are created equal, some are captured as .avi, .flv, .wmv, .mov, .mpv, etc. & they each compress & expand employing different mechanisms. The back-end software of any website must be optimized to handle video files and the back-end DB requirements are exceedingly large to accommodate these files.

Uttran

Do your engine have something like edelbrock 2733?
Becouse if it where a 455, i could swear it is the exhaust crossover plug making the noise.
All the symptomes are pointing in that direction..

BillK

Ray,
Do you know how large the video file is ?

Ray74

Video of the noise is finally posted.
After sometime and help from my spouse I was able to get a video on youtube. I can not seem to get a url address but if you go to youtube and enter "1960 Oldsmobile engine 394 a" it should come up. I truly appreciate everyone's input on the video issue and on the engine.

Ray

Vintage Chief

Uttran

Thats a total different sound than i imagined.
Have you tried to remove the belt for the alternator and the steering pump?

blakes7

I was wondering if the belts are too tight. Or, could the fan be hitting something?

oldolds88

water pump impeller hitting the back cover?

Ray74

I have had the both belts off at the same time, several times, started the engine and the sound is still there. I have had the vacuum/fuel pump off twice and started the engine and the sound is still there. I was sure that is where the noise was coming from but it was not.

Thanks for the suggestions and I know why you would make those suggestion because it seems like that would be it.

Ray

Ray74

Norm

How you got the YouTube posted to this site is a mystery to me there is no way I could have done that. I do appreciate that you could do it for me.
Ray

59-59-59

Do you have the oil slinger installed on backwards maybe? The obvious giveaway is the word ‘Front’ stamped into the slinger that should be installed, well, facing the front of the engine