FourFourDeuce

Anyone know of a guide to decipher Oldsmobile VIN's?

Or is there any way to make 100% sure a car is indeed a 442?

Reason being I'm looking at a '68 442 at the moment and wanted to make sure this car isn't just a fixed up Cutlass.

EDIT: Sorry if I'm asking redundant questions, however I'd hate to be ripped off and I'm sure most of you would agree with me there

FourFourDeuce

Err... one more question... the car has a floor-shift auto at the moment and I was wondering how difficult it'd be to switch trannies(possibly a modern 5-speed). I don't mind a little work, I'll be working on the car with my father, but I just want to make sure we don't get in too deep. :|

Thanks,

Jake

joe_padavano

Here's a good source for VIN decoding:

http://members.aol.com/drewinva/olds/vin/

ALL 1968 442s have a VIN that starts 344... If not, it isn't a real 442. If you're worried about a body data plate that doesn't match (starts out 336...), that's OK. The 1968 and most 1969 442s came from the factory with Cutlass data plates. This is well documented in the Fisher Body Manual for those years.

If you're looking for a 5 speed swap, Keisler is about the best:

http://www.keislerauto.com/

It won't be cheap.

There is one other "gotcha" with Oldsmobiles. If the engine originally came with an automatic, the crank likely won't be machined for the pilot bearing needed to run a manual trans. The options are to disassemble the engine and have the crank bored for the bearing or buy a conversion bearing from one of the Olds specialty houses. This conversion bearing fits in the crank flange recess that pilots the torque converter but unfortunately the hole still isn't deep enough for the manual trans input shaft. You'll need to either trim 1/2" to 3/4" from the trans input shaft or bore a clearance hole in the crank anyway.

FourFourDeuce

Thanks a lot, Joe.

Here's a link to the car.

http://www.coolcarsforsale.net/showc...fl_175_1001177

Has the correct trumpets and he says it comes with the original rims. Too good to be true for that price or a bargain if it is as he says it is?

joe_padavano

That car's definitely had a lot of work done to it. Those trumpets do not look right. Maybe it's the angle of the picture, but the flared portion does not look correct. Ask if this car has 2 1/2" exhaust pipes. The OEM tail pipes were 2" and the tips are shaped differently.

What's going on with the inside door handle on the driver's door? The handle should be horizontal, not angled upwards. If it's just put back on the mechanism in the wrong orientation, that's easy to fix, but be sure it isn't due to some other problem.

The car has obviously been repainted. The white side stripes were added and are not original. In 1968 if you ordered the side stripes the 442 emblems on the fenders were repositioned further back towards the edge of the door, This was done so the stripe would be centered between the back of the wheel opening and the front edge of the door at the bottom of the fender. Notice on this car how the bottom of the stripe hits the back of the wheel opening. That is not correct.

I'm also always nervous when I see a repaint like this. What's going on with the sheetmetal under the "resale red" paint?

Finally, and this is not a criticism of this particular car, why do people put this much money and effort into a car like this and leave the crappy front drum brakes on it?

Oldsmaniac

To pick the car apart a little more....the grill 442 emblem is not placed right. Front bumper dosent seem to fit right where it wraps around left fender. Engine color is wrong....should have C heads. Small trim piece at trunklid on quarter looks twisted. The only thing that tells me its legit is the 442 glovebox door with 442 on it......And that could have been added...Research this one good and go over with a magnet to see how much bondo was applied before repaint...Finish the homework you have started then make a decision.

joe_padavano

Actually, while it looks gold in the pictures, that may be the correct bronze. It's hard to tell on an internet picture. Note that the engine paints are very sensitive to application technique. Due to the heavy metallic, if you spray light coats (the way you're supposed to), the colors seem to come out lighter. When you spray heavy wet coats the metallic sinks and you get a darker color. I've noticed this with the 455 blue also. In any case, it's obviously been repainted. Don't know if this is a "spray can rebuild" or if real work was done to the motor.

Same for the eyebrow molding above the pass. side headlights.

Excellent advice. Again, the VIN will tell the story. If the VIN derivative on the block matches, that's a good thing.

270win

It's got a Cutlass hood on it. The center emblem is the "S" from a Cutlass Supreme... Also, the Oldsmobile emblem on the right side of the hood is incorrect for a 442...that's a Cutlass emblem too. That's not the kiss of death, just something to be aware of. I was seriously looking at this car but decided to let it pass. IMO it's a >$10K car... But that's my opinion.

270win

FourFourDeuce

I've gotten too much of a bad vibe off this car without even going to look at it. Thanks a lot guys for all your help, hopefully I can find what I'm looking for.

270win

Don't rush ito it and you'll find that car you're daydreaming about...

270win

ReasonOne

Give me the cowl tag information, engine identification number , transmission code and rear axle code and I can tell you.

88 coupe

The way I read it, he did not buy the car.

Norm

OldTimer

I was browsing the web for a 442 and found the car mentioned in this thread. It was also on eBay but the reserve was not met. There the seller mentioned it has bubbles in few spots. I asked for more pictures of those spots and the bottom of the car the orig rims and I got a bunch photos. From the photos the car seemed to be in fairly good condition.

Good thing I googled coolcarsforsale and found this thread. It seems the car has been sitting there for a while since this thread was started almost a year ago. I have a question for FourFourDeuce and 270win. Did you contact the seller back then? Did he mention the rusty/bubbly spots?

As FourFourDeuce mentioned it looks like a good deal. Also as mentioned here, one can not tell from the pictures what is underneath the paintcoat.

OldTimer

I can e-mail the pics I received from the seller for those who are interested to comment on them.

Run to Rund

"Finally, and this is not a criticism of this particular car, why do people put this much money and effort into a car like this and leave the crappy front drum brakes on it?"

Hey!!! I resemble that remark All my Oldsmobiles have drum brakes

J-(Chicago)

Agreed.
I think clones are lame, but hey... there's all sorts of reasons why they do it good and bad. Many I do not understand.

Some people make tribute cars to an old 442 they wrecked years back.
Some do it to ''look cool'' or seek approval from "regular" car drivers.
Some people have found so many 442 parts laying around, they figured they might as well build one (close enough)
and then again..... some people just want to make money screwing others over.

Run to Rund

Imo, some of this "clone" stuff depends on the factory's intention. Max wedges and hemis, Thunderbolt Fords, 442s when they were their own series according to the VIN are one case. The factory intended you to buy that car and then race it. In some other cases, the good stuff was sold through the parts department and the factory intended you to put it on an existing car. The 66 W30 package was one such "conversion" that all the racers at the 1966 NHRA Nationals had done, with the factory blessing and intention. The 54 factory cars were the other half of the equation and were intended for racing, but primarily for the NHRA approval of the package as "stock."

If you look through the GMPD parts books, you will see that you could start with any F85, 6 cylinder or V8, and completely convert it to a 442, L69 Tri Carb 442, or W30. Olds offered one-number conversion packages to convert to TriCarbs (393615), and from there, to W30 (230195). These converswions would properly be termed "owner-installed options" rather than "clones." A clone references an inauthentic car masquerading as a factory-only special run car. In certain cases with Olds, the owner-installed options were considered equally worthy at that time in history. Barrett Jackson was not their intention, racing was. Even today, if you added power steering or a radio, would you have an owner installed option, or would you have a power steering clone car? Radio clone car? Once an "option" can be legitimately installed by the dealer or owner, through factory-available parts packages, I feel you get away from that nasty "clone" status. You only need to represent the car for what it is to be honest. The factory even offered "body in the white" shells, so if you took a car all the way back to a disassembled shell, and built it up with correct parts, you have a nice car whose history is different from that of a factory built car, but not a disgusting piece of junk, again imho. It might bring a different value or recognition in some circles, but it can tell a compelling story just the same.

dan1s

This is why I have kept mine a TRUE SURVIVOR car. I know I have dings and dents but at least I know there's no bondo. Everything on my car is all original except for the rims/tires, air cleaner and I'm missing the trumpets. Here is a link to more info about my car. And I also have 4 wheel drumb drake and they work great.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3068977

Oldsguy

Run,

I appreciate that good post. It appears that you have done quite a bit of reading up on Oldsmobile documentation, or have a lot of good references, or have a lot of first hand experience (I see you are old enough for that), or a combination of them all. I fully agree with some of your statements and opinions. My beef is when people get hung up on the name badge image (you eluded to BJ and the hype they have induced), and end up either looking for an "original 442" or selling one that may not end up really being what was advertised. I get more excited about a nice well preserved Cutlass S or f85 that was purchased as a plain vanilla car, or one of those as you described that were built up by the owner or dealer using options available than I do about a "numbers matching" original 442 - W machine - Hurst equipped - one of a kind - guaranteed bazillion dollar super car. Although I do like seeing those rare '68 post cars with bench seats and four speeds that occasionally show up. Dan, your car is really nice and you have done a good thing by it.

dan1s

Dan,

I agree with you 100%.

The guy that I bought my car from wanted the car to go to a good home instead of rotting in his garage. We have a great relationship and he's happy that the car is in good hands now. I stay in contact with him all the time and give him updates on my progress. He lives not that far from me and I will soon be driving up to his house so he can take it for a ride again. The last time he drove it was back in 1985.

For me this car represents a piece of time that I grew up with and I want to keep it as much pure to it's originality as possible for my kids to enjoy and remember it. But that just me!!

Everyone has different taste.