jrzybob442

None of the cars sold at these autions are about driving or enjoying the car - they are about investment and profit. The cars you see there, that go for these big bucks, do not represent the hobby, they are "artifacts" created to get people with more moeny than brains to buy them to show how much money they have.

95% of these cars spend their lives either being resold over and over again or sitting in some jerk's garage and never seing the light of day. They have nothing to do with what those of us on this forum are into.

You might as well be talking about a Tiffany vase as these cars. Most of us realize this. Why waste your time? Go enjoy your car and the hobby and forget about these cars, they in no way represent what we enjoy.

gearheads78

Looks to me like they tried to hard to "age" those docs. Kinda like trying to fake patina on a car. No matter what you do to can't duplicate the look the 35 years sitting in a field gives you.

TK-65

Thats the sticker I was sent. Total fabrication, and a real bad one at that. Dealer sheet is fake too, and Im going to say the other two pieces arent real either. Never seen the fold up piece in the 4th photo look like that. Usually that piece is gone or in perfect condition from being in the glove box.

Not the first time fake docs have sold a car and wont be the last. Only the person who bought is to blame. Really, that stuff is so bad you would have to be a moron to think they were real.

Vader

I don't think you can blame the buyer for not catching this. Most people have not seen real documents, and they are all a little different. As we've seen before on this site, it's very easy to present images of modified part numbers or documents which will fool 95% of the people. That's with 5-10 minutes work.
Now your talking about 6 figure cars.. It's not very hard to find the skills or equipment to print these documents with 95% accuracy for a few hundred dollars. Currency and bank notes have a lot of 3 dimensional security measures because it's so easy to duplicate the images.
Just a thought, and my opinion..

Rocket Richard

I know what you're saying, but anyone prepared to make an investment like that should consult someone who knows about this stuff before buying. Kind of like getting a home inspection before you buy a house.

MDchanic

1. Those "documents" all look like they were aged in the same bucket at the same time.
Obvious BS. I am amazed and appalled that anyone would fall for them.

2. This points out a fact I mention from time to time, that has been known to get me flamed:
People who pay big bucks like these for cars whose originality hinges completely on their documentation are, in a very real sense, paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for those falsified pieces of paper.
Because of this, if you can create "real" build sheets and other documents, you can make a lot of money, even if you can't restore a car.
This is the antithesis of automobile restoration and appreciation, and as Joe said, is killing the hobby.

These "documented" cars are no better, and honestly should be no more valuable than any other car of a similar restoration level / quality.
A fully restored L6 F-85 post with rubber floor mats is, with a very few parts differences, the same exact car as a W-30 (or an LS6 Chevelle), and the differences in values reflect the whims of a bunch of rich people throwing their money around, and have absolutely NO basis in the actual, intrinsic value of the vehicle itself.
Yes, "what the market will bear," "what someone else is willing to pay," and all that, but these cars are, at the most basic level, mass-produced American pieces of junk, made by a huge corporation looking to make all the profit it could, designed by penny-pinching engineers, churned out by a bunch of guys who mostly didn't give a damn, working in a huge factory with sloppy tolerances, with a high rate of warranty claims after they were sold.
These are not Dusenbergs or Maseratis that were slowly and-built by obsessive craftsmen, or even Porsches that were designed and mass-produced by fanatic "ex"-*****.
They were designed to last five years in good condition, maybe another five if you were lucky and didn't mind driving a rustbucket, and then be thrown away.
They are valuable now, in part because it's so improbable that any survived at all.

- Eric

TK-65

With technology today, one could have looked at that car in the presale area, googled W30 window sticker on your phone, and see if that cars docs were real or not. Shame on the buyer for not doing that.

That sticker is so bad, along with its matching "mold" covered cousins, anyone with half a clue should have raised their eyebrow.

Diego

That should be chalked up as "coulda,woulda, shoulda," not "it's the buyer's fault."

There are some very good fakes out there. When it comes to houses, it's pretty much black and white on what problems will be discovered. Plus, when inspecting a house, it's done on your schedule, while B-J doesn't allow much time (or elbow room) to inspect a car.

While I am not foolish enough to trust just anyone, I do believe that people should be operating in an ethical manner. To place blame on a buyer because he may have been faked out by docs, was too trusting, etc. doesn't sit well with me.

allyolds68

The current owner is probably selling the car so he can get an accurate value on what to sue the previous owner for.

You can't just say "buyer beware" when there's intent to defraud. You can bet they'll attempt to track the documents back to the person who originally produced them or had them produced.

TK-65

Of course in a perfect world everyone should be on the level. Fact is, many are not. And at an event where its known that many people build cars just to be sold at the event, one should be skeptical of every car there. This is just one of many frauds that have come from that auction, the JFK ambulance, the rebodied Camaro that Pratt bought, etc.

Not enought time to imspect a car? Then dont buy it. That W30 isnt the only one left, there are plenty more out there that dont have a time limit on where or when you can see it.

That paperwork is so bad its almost like they tried to see how bad they could make it and still trick someone.

TK-65

For what reason?

MDchanic

The interesting thing about this, and a lawyer could probably clarify it a bit more, is that, since the actual documents in question are neither currency nor financial instruments, the person who "created" them likely committed no crime, and would not be subject to civil penalties either.

A successful lawsuit could be tough, if the immediate seller says he was duped by his predecessor, and that peson says he gave him the documents as "novelties" but didn't claim they were real. If there's no signed statement either attesting to the documents' originality, or accepting that they are only for "illustrative purposes," then potential responsibility gets diffused all over the place, and a jury may be tempted to let it rest.

- Eric

allyolds68

Don't you expect someone will come knocking on your door someday asking if you reproduced a window sticker for a certain individual who "claims" that he got it when he bought the car?

I'm not saying what you do is in any way immoral or unethical. I just think there are people out there that are stupid enough to use what you produce to intentionally deceive. I'd say there's a good chance that someday the FBI is going to be asking you questions so keep good records.

It all comes down to how the documents were presented.

I'd like to add that I'm a huge proponant of "buyer beware" but you just can't intentionally forge documents to increase profit

Diego

All I'm saying is that no one should blame a buyer for someone else's misconduct.

MDchanic

Why would the FBI ask him questions when there is nothing illegal about printing old car stickers?

If GM wanted to press a copyright issue regarding their logo, that's one thing, but that's not what we're talking about here.

I mean, how long would the conversation be?
-- "Did you print these?"
-- "Yeah."
-- "Okay. Thanks."

- Eric

halfmoontrail

Ok, I'll bite...what is so bad or so obviously wrong with the documents? And, there's some possibility for it to be a real W30, just without documentation, correct? There's a Facebook tthread of the rstoration, the block stamping looks right to me, but not the trans stamping -- at least for Corvettes and for the various GM automatic cars I've had, the block and trans stamp looked to have been made by the same gang stamp.

Steve

allyolds68

Try this:

"Did you print these for MDChanic"
"Yeah"
"Okay, Thanks"

Big difference if MDchanic sold a car to someone claiming he originally bought the car with the docs. That's intent to deceive

hurst68olds

WAG

1 - a regular well-known high end consignor brings car to auction
2 - a wealthy collector wins a "record setting $" auction on a remarkable & "well documented" car
3 - upon physical inspection the authenticity of the documents come into question
4 - collector notifies auction house (does not want "record setting $" car with "FAKE" docs)
5 - it is agreed - documents are fraudulent
6 - auction house takes car back & repays collector (collector is whole & pleased with actions of auction house "I'll be back")
7 - auction house notifies consignor ("deal must be un-done")
8 - consignor doesn't want car back (for any number of reasons)
9 - re-auction asap (consignor "I'll be back") got to make $
10 - auction house $$$$

again WAG

MDchanic

I'm no expert, and am only looking at the posted cellphone pics, but all of the documents look as though they had the same thing happen to them at the same time.

This is unlikely.

For a window sticker to have survived at all, it probably had to be in a file folder in someone's filing cabinet, or in a shoebox, meanwhile, the build sheet would reside under the package tray or above the gas tank for years.
When they all came together, they would look different from each other.



You caught me. I confess.



Seriously, though, since the manufacture of antique-auto window stickers is unregulated, there is no obligation to keep any records at all, except those for tax purposes (IF the making of the stickers is claimed as a business).

He's within his rights to answer "I don't know," and be done with it.

- Eric

joe_padavano

Yeah, but...

I have personally stacked documents in the non-environmentally controlled barn for a decade or so and subsequently pulled them out. It's not unheard of for all of the documents in the stack to have matching mold spots - of course they were also stuck together and did not separate cleanly, either.

I'm not vouching for these documents, and again from the crappy photos they look suspicious, but it isn't IMPOSSIBLE for them to look like that. Now, overlay all the documents and see if the "mold" spots line up.

Where's that fancy CSI software with the 3D hologram displays when you need it?

TK-65

You tell Chumlee from Pawn Stars that, Rick Harrison wouldnt be so hard on him for buying fake merch. From time to time they buy fake goods, not once have I heard them say they werent at fault.

Diego

The TV show is irrelevant.

Maybe this will clarify it for you - one person said, " I couldn't care less if that guy got burned or not with that paperwork."

I simply disagree. I do care if someone got burned due to fraudulent intent.

TK-65

Thats the exact path this website takes, novelty and not meant to be passed off as real.

http://www.oldchevydocumentation.com/

So good luck talking to the FBI. If that site can sell what they sell its game on for anyone to do it. Its up to YOU to figure out whats real and whats not. Nobody can make you pay for something thats fake.

TK-65

I do and I would if it was me. But if it did happen to me Id see if I had any legal recourse but I wouldnt blame the seller for selling it to me.

Diego

I would blame the seller if there was fraudulent intent - how could you not?

TK-65

..

MDchanic

Even through the blurry pictures, you can see the difference in typeface between whatever the forger used and the factory IBM lineprinter.

- Eric

Rocket Richard

Sure, if the docs are fraudulent, the seller is to blame. But, the buyer is also to blame. The world is not that simple (or kind), and anyone who knows how to make $300,000 should know that.

It's hard to imagine that all the wealthy people out there in the world got their money while being squeaky clean the whole way. A lot of people break the rules, or do something unethical at least once to make their money. I respect others who have a different view on that, but it's how I see it.

There are millions of people out there who have lost $$ because they didn't do their homework and there's nothing that they can do about it after the money has changed hands.

I'm sure the folks at BJ are not happy about this, and hopefully they do something about it rather than let it slide, get their commission, and continue like nothing happened. Has anyone heard if BJ will be doing anything different now?

Jimi2much

Replica. Both Kevin Marti and I live in El Mirage. He is licensed by Ford Motor Co . to verify and decode . We talk every several months. Very professional service. Because of VIN to option number verification this misrepresentation with a Ford is virtually impossible. The key words in a Ford restore are born with VS. date correct if anything is out of integrity.
Because I was there 10 of 12 days , I had a LOT of time viewing the 2013 inventory. There is almost no evidence of Ford " NOVELTY " paperwork.
When it appears , the story and evidence , and individual get exposed.
That is why every Ford , Lincoln , and Mercury got a Marti Report for free at the Scottsdale 2013 auction.
Last year an LS6 1970 Chevelle Convt appeared in the B-J Catalog. A national Chevelle forum exposed the car pre-auction and the fraud was stopped. It was re listed as a " CLONE ". This Chevelle guy was singled out because he was a repeat offender. Sometimes the temptation is just too great.
After I sold my car , I waited almost 45 days to receive my payment.
Because of that , if a sale was done out of legal integrity , there SHOULD be a way to remedy. But hey , I'm only a little guy. I do have a consignee , and a consignor rep. at the Scottsdale office. I'm more than happy to ask these guys about this particular car... The people I feel compassion for are phone bidders , and people that have over utilized their 10 free drink punch cards on the bidder and guest passes before bidding. I'm looking forward to interacting with some of the previous posters that have all of this performance Oldsmobile verification wired so well. Knowledge is always power... Thanks , Jim

WTony

Jeff still works with his father in Telford at the original body shop. He has nothing to do with Troy or his business.

Yes, Troy is out on his own in Quakertown where he has his own restoration shop and reproduction parts business.

Troy has done a lot for us with the Olds reproduction parts and his items are all high quality. If there's "seller" repercussions or reputation doubts it should not in any way be aimed towards Troy.

I was at Barrett Jackson yesterday in West Palm and had saw Jeff's red 70 and Troys yellow 70 there. Both are perfect restorations. The red "W-30" as its being shown as, has all the correct original parts on it. Im not saying its impossible to do, but unless someone took the time and effort to hunt down all the correct parts with correct corresponding date codes to fake it, it looked correct to me. But now that the forgery of the documentation has been exposed, it would put doubt of authenticity into play in anyone's mind.

The yellow 70 that is owned by Troy is just a 442 with A/C. And is not being represented as anything but a finely restored 442 convertible.

vette442

I was happy to see that the yellow convertible was left as a base 442.

I had to contact Mecum a couple years ago pre-auction as someone was passing off my old Jade Gold 350 3 speed manual '68 post coupe as a Ram Rod. The consigner did a nice job cloning it, but they weren't advertising it as a clone. I sent pics and the VIN number, and all of a sudden the listing had it billed as a clone.

Terry

stevengerard

I better start digging around for my documentation. Seriously, I do not have it in a temperature, moisture controlled environment and right now I have no idea if its in my parts closet, a filing cabinet or the bank vault. I even used to bring some of it with me to shows but realized it became more valuable than the cars - which is a shame. I should make copies of it, haven't done that. One of my broadcast cards was laminated long ago but the others are just loose.

Any suggestions? Someone on this board showed me their original window sticker shellacked to a piece of wood from a previous owner - have seen a few of those actually. That should last a long time. I wouldn't do that but I guess I should make multiple copies and put the originals away in safe place sealed in plastic. Do people laminate this stuff or does that ruin it?

MDchanic

My suggestion would be not to do anything that you can't undo.

You could shellac or laminate anything and then claim it was original, and it would be very hard to prove because nobody would really be able to hold it in their hands.

Put it away in a flat, dry, fireproof, safe place, preferably between two sheets of acid free paper.

- Eric

Vader

It doesn't matter to me either way, but I would say the fonts are the same.
One has obviously spread into the substrate differently then the other over time. If you superimpose the images, they are the same.

MDchanic

I have to have a clearer photograph to be able to agree with you. Could just be my eyes...

- Eric

72xw30

Good morning,

Has anyone ever seen a "Dealer Copy" of a window sticker? For one of my 70 W cars the window sticker says Dealer Copy at the top. The paper is about 3/4 the size and does not have the Oldsmobile Rockets around the outside border. This one is completely different then the other ones I have for my W cars. The car is a documented Canadian delivered W30.

I will post pictures later.

Any ideas?

Cheers,

Sam

TK-65

Look closer the fonts are not the same. Look at the rockets on the fake one, notice how distorted they are. Notice where it says MAKE Oldsmobile, real one is heavier.

The fake one is printed on the Jim Osborne repop. And ill bet there is no print on the back like the original

Last, Lansing did not print the standard options like the fake one.
.

TK-65

It's exactly what it says, the dealers copy. I have a few examples of them in my collection. I have over 200 original copies and a few real stickets on my shelf.

1969Hurst

You would think what is becoming a 'rare' car is just a nicely restored plain Jane Cutlass or Chevelle or Camaro, etc. Don't know how many times I've heard at the auctions "Chevelle with 'SS' badging" or something similar. But hey, the plain vanilla cars don't bring the big bucks, but I'd certainly enjoy having one all the same.

VikingBlue

couple of analogies....a guy makes a clone W30 and also goes further and creates "clone" (fake) W30 documents for display at car shows...if making the clone vehicle is OK, which it is, so is making the phony documents. For display purposes. And then he sells the car without claiming the car is a real W30, but in some ways he is also being deceitful because he doesn't say it isn't fake either, and a buyer gets overexcited at seeing what he thinks are real docs....too bad for the buyer.


Similar to a home seller knowing there's lead paint in the house, but marking "unknown" in the selling papers....it's being deceitful, but legally not cause for future claim.