Remember that $300k+ W-30 rag at Scottsdale?

Old April 2nd, 2013, 05:15 PM
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Remember that $300k+ W-30 rag at Scottsdale?

Apparently the paperwork was fraudulent.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...opics/522779/3
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Diego View Post
Apparently the paperwork was fraudulent.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...opics/522779/3


A car sold at BJ was not as advertised? I'm shocked, SHOCKED I say...

Of course, the original ad for the car says this:

Originally Posted by Barrett Jackson
1970 442 W30 4-speed convertible with W27 aluminum differential. An undocumented car, one of 96 built.
Read it for yerself...

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/appli...ln=772&aid=467
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 08:23 AM
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Joe, that auction you listed is for the one coming up in Palm Beach after the owner figured something was fishy.

THis is the original one:

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/appli...n=1314&aid=466
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Diego View Post
Joe, that auction you listed is for the one coming up in Palm Beach after the owner figured something was fishy.

THis is the original one:

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/appli...n=1314&aid=466
Ah, thanks.

As I said before, I'm SHOCKED (not).
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 08:40 AM
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I thought Thornton was reputable. Maybe not?
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 08:49 AM
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So did BJ have to take the car back and give the high bidder their money back? Yea that does put a cloud of doubt over every car that Thornton have sold.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 08:50 AM
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I don't know the legal issues with ownership when a car is transferred from seller to buyer but I think that's how it works?
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Diego View Post
I thought Thornton was reputable. Maybe not?
Thornton is a restoration shop who does what the customer pays them to do. If the customer pays them to install a W-27 rear end during the build, they will. I'm sure they had nothing to do with the ad copy or how the car was represented by the seller.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 08:53 AM
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Somebody made the paperwork - who?

And was Thornton there representing the car?
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Diego View Post
Somebody made the paperwork - who?

And was Thornton there representing the car?
Frankly, I don't waste my time watching BJ, so I can't answer, and to be honest, don't care. The whole big auction thing is killing the hobby in my opinion.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 09:20 AM
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I wonder how much that car really would of sold for if there were no Barret Jackson's, Mecum, RM, or any other big auction names. I couldn't care less if that guy got burned or not with that paperwork
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 09:32 AM
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I got to see a car from a famous auction house. The car had a frame off and was numbers matching early thunder bird convertible . The car was up on a hoist so I got to take a good look. The car was put together with hardware store hardware, the front end was worn out and the axle seals were leaking as well as a wheel cylinders. The car was hit at one time and did not look like it was repaired well. The car was a 2 dressed up as a nine and a total waste of money and time. Like anything you have the good and the bad coming from the auctions . I have had friends come back from auctions that have been less than impressed. I have never been to one of the big auctions but after seeing the thunderbird on the hoist I have no desire to go.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Diego View Post
I thought Thornton was reputable. Maybe not?
IDK if its splitting hairs but the copy reads Jeff Thornton. Troy runs the restoration & parts repro business. Jeff is Troy's brother. The ad specified Telford PA and Troy works out of Quakertown. I am not sure if they are the same business working out of two different locations or separate businesses.

http://www.thorntonclassics.com/about_us.htm
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
I got to see a car from a famous auction house.
It's irrelevant to this car as the Thorntons are known to restore Oldsmobiles to better than factory.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 11:03 AM
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Is it just me, or does it seem a bit odd that this car would have the "regular" steering wheel, instead of the sports option.

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Old April 3rd, 2013, 11:17 AM
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The steering wheel you speak of was optional.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ddd777 View Post
Is it just me, or does it seem a bit odd that this car would have the "regular" steering wheel, instead of the sports option.
In a world where people add every option under the sun during restorations, I thought it was cool that they kept the deluxe steering wheel.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by vette442 View Post
In a world where people add every option under the sun during restorations, I thought it was cool that they kept the deluxe steering wheel.
I meant when it was purchased.

I figured it was a sporty package, so a sporty wheel would usually have been selected.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 11:38 AM
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the ''buyer beware'' didn't work out so well here
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ddd777 View Post
I meant when it was purchased.

I figured it was a sporty package, so a sporty wheel would usually have been selected.

Many W30s came with the standard steering wheel. Many folks are under the impression that the W30 package came with the sport wheel but it was in fact still an option.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Diego View Post
It's irrelevant to this car as the Thorntons are known to restore Oldsmobiles to better than factory.
The point I was trying to make was just because it comes from a famous auction house dose not mean that the car has full documentation or that it is a true numbers matching car. Or that it had a quality restoration or a complete restoration.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
The point I was trying to make was just because it comes from a famous auction house dose not mean that the car has full documentation or that it is a true numbers matching car. Or that it had a quality restoration or a complete restoration.
I'm sorry, but you're just figuring this out now? Anyone remember the great JFK ambulance fiasco of a couple of years ago?
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 12:16 PM
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I thought the same thing, that it was odd on a full load car to come with the base model wheel.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by joe_padavano View Post
I'm sorry, but you're just figuring this out now? Anyone remember the great JFK ambulance fiasco of a couple of years ago?

I have known buyer beware since I was 20 and that was many years ago. That one should not trust anyone selling you anything, because they have there own best interest in mind . Just as a buyer has when trying to get the best deal or value for there purchase. But I was taken back buy the poor condition of a so called frame off restoration. To me a frame off is a quality complete restoration buy skilled and trained people. That does not mean it has to come out of a big name shop they can come out of a car guys garage.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
The point I was trying to make was just because it comes from a famous auction house dose not mean that the car has full documentation or that it is a true numbers matching car. Or that it had a quality restoration or a complete restoration.
That's cool, but I know what your point was. My follow-up was saying that while auction houses may have plenty of perfumed pigs, one shouldn't regard all auction cars in the same manner. In this car's case, a well-known restorer prepped the car for auction, and those looking for this kind of car were aware of it before they bought their ticket for Scottsdale.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
I thought the same thing, that it was odd on a full load car to come with the base model wheel.
Lots of people slapped on aftermarket wheels, for one thing.

And the W-30 package was par for the course in the muscle car era, not even coming with a tachometer.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
To me a frame off is a quality complete restoration buy skilled and trained people.
"Frame off" is another one of those terms that's so mis-used as to be meaningless ("numbers-matching" 67 442, anyone?). By the way, unless you have the car on it's roof, it's technically a "body off" resto. And I'm always amused by the "frame off" restos of a car like a Mustang or a Corvair. Can I see a picture of the bare frame?
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 01:26 PM
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hi Joe...quick sidetrack....did old VW Beetles and vans have frames ?
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by VikingBlue View Post
hi Joe...quick sidetrack....did old VW Beetles and vans have frames ?
That would be a pan off resto
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by VikingBlue View Post
hi Joe...quick sidetrack....
Yeah, it is...

I think this thread is pretty close to the weeds anyway, however.

did old VW Beetles and vans have frames ?
Actually, funny you should ask. Not really a "frame", but a structural floorpan (the center hump is really the primary structural member) that served as the basis for millions (?) of kit cars.



This is actually relevant to Oldsmobiles (though not this thread) because former Oldsmobile engineer Bill Porterfield started a company called Mid Engineering and developed a tube frame that bolted in place of the VW floorpan and accepted a Toronado drivetrain (mounted in the back). This was most famously used under the Kelmark kit car and there was an article in Car Craft back in the 1970s where they drove a pair of these cars (one 350 powered, one 455 powered) on some road trip with a Custom Cruiser mothership. Unfortunately, every website that used to have a photo of the Mid-Engineering chassis no longer exists.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 01:54 PM
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For me a frame off means that the suspension, frame, sub-frame/ pan, engine, trans diff, interior, glass, trim, seals are removed. The car body is then put on a body rotisserie and 9 times out of ten it should go off to be media blasted or be dipped.
The first thing that should happen before any car has any kind of restoration is it should head over to the frame shop to make sure that the car is straight every thing builds on this starting point. To many cars are built on **** frame/body shell repair. This will be the best $300 to $400 that you will spend.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by joe_padavano View Post
"Frame off" is another one of those terms that's so mis-used as to be meaningless ("numbers-matching" 67 442, anyone?). By the way, unless you have the car on it's roof, it's technically a "body off" resto. And I'm always amused by the "frame off" restos of a car like a Mustang or a Corvair. Can I see a picture of the bare frame?

"Frame off" is basically meaningless, as far as determining the quality of the restoration. I can take a pile of crap, take the body off, paint the frame with a brush, lower the body back on and voila, a body off restoration.

Ive seen plenty of "frame offs" that were better left frame on.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
For me a frame off means that the suspension, frame, sub-frame/ pan, engine, trans diff, interior, glass, trim, seals are removed. The car body is then put on a body rotisserie and 9 times out of ten it should go off to be media blasted or be dipped.
And that's right out of Webster's, right?

Sorry, but this is exactly why I said the term is meaningless. YOU may think that's what it means, but there's no accepted definition of it. I've seen too many unibody cars that claimed a "frame off" restoration. How do you do that, exactly?
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Diego View Post
Apparently the paperwork was fraudulent
Does anyone have pictures of the fake paperwork? I'd like to see how real it looks.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 04:00 PM
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Yeah, that's an interesting proposition, Brian, because all we know is that there were two bidders who were vying for the creme de la creme based on paperwork. Was that story true? I wasn't in Scottsdale so I can't bear witness to anything.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackGold View Post
Does anyone have pictures of the fake paperwork? I'd like to see how real it looks.
Paperwork is vague. What documents were shown as original? Window sticker? broadcast card? dealer new buyer sign offs? POP?

What exactly was fake?

Lee sent me a copy of a window sticker from an auction car out there, burnt up, faded, stained fake. He would have more info on it, but I was asked to verify it. And it wasnt even close to being real.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 05:20 PM
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Don't quote me, but:

I would assume the docs that showed it to be a W-27 car were fake. Whether it's a real W-30, I dunno. I know someone who has a copy of the old eBay auction from a few years ago and there's no indication of the documents that would put this car over the top.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 08:49 PM
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How much does the original color code play in to the price?
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 10:27 PM
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Here are a few of the document pics I took of the color copies that were on display at B-J AZ '13.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 11:09 PM
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I don't see much good coming out of these auctions. And well, the main thing is I don't really care. If I had a $300,000 car I wouldn't enjoy it at all.
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