Amplitude

Hello All,
I'm possibly going to buy this car in the next few days and need some help determining what the true value is. Really what the value will be after we get out of this weird Covid collector car bubble we're in. Who better to help me with that than the people in the community that knows them best.

I'll preface with the fact that my first car was a 1969 Mustang coupe when I was 14. The ensuing debacle of endless structural rust repairs and covered up shitty body work, cost me the $20K I had saved up for my college expenses, burned me out to the point that I was never even able to finish/drive it, and put me off of buying another classic Muscle Car until now. Don't get me wrong, I've continued my love of speed and HP, but with newer cars, boats, and motorcycles. Now I've got three small children, and want something I can take them cruising and to shows in as they grow up. While at the same point, having something I'll be able to run down the local strip, or the streets of Mexico on the occasional Saturday night with a bunch of my old friends.

In the pictures it looks really, really good, and I'm told they don't even do it justice. Since I have yet to purchase the car, I've selected and edited some that hopefully won't provide any vulture's enough info to sweep in on me.
I'm going to have it inspected and appraised before shipping it halfway across the country. But any info or input you all could give would be invaluable.


Here is everything I currently know. The gentlemen selling it didn't have most of the work done, it was all done by the owner prior to him. But he has a large binder of paperwork and is supposed to get me pictures of it all in the next couple of days. If anyone sees anything in the photos I've attached, please let me know.

1968 442
Vin does match to a 2Dr hardtop 442
Red with black interior. Buckets with center console.
Paint looks flawless. Even the inside of the trunk is painted to the same standard as the exterior
No undercoating, absolutely no rust on frame, floor pans, or body panels visible anywhere.
400ci (unsure of any engine mods) I'm sure its been at least freshened up at some point.
MSD Pro-billet Distributor and coil
Holley 4150 carb. But looks like stock intake manifold.
Hooker Comp headers
Newer exhaust with X-pipe
Factory 4spd swapped for Tremec 5spd. Assuming TKO500 or 600.
New clutch with 1000miles
Newer upgraded P/S Box
Newer power brakes w 11" booster, proportioning valve, with discs up front drums in the rear. (unsure of exactly what calipers or rotors. But I assume stock.
Vintage Air A/C
Aluminum radiator
12 bolt with unknown LSD and gear set.
Looks like new gas tank and brake lines within the last 10 years or so,

Front suspension:
BMR Tubular upper and Lower A-Arms.
Looks like BMR springs with Koni adjustable shocks
Detroit Speed Sway bar

Rear suspension
BMR Tubular non-adjustable upper and lower control Arms
BMR Springs
Hotchkis Air Bags in rear coils
Detroit Speed adjustable sway bar

BangScreech4-4-2

I'd say about $18-22K. The modifications shouldn't hurt it too badly -- I don't see anything there that can't be undone fairly easily, and it's certainly in nice shape.

joe_padavano

The grille emblem is one row too low. That's at least $5K off the price.

Seriously, that car has obviously been apart and put back together. Value depends on two things. First, are the modifications done to your tastes? The problem with custom cars like this is that mods can be polarizing, so value is all over the map depending on whether or not the right buyer comes along when the car is offered for sale. It's much easier to get baseline values on a totally stock car because then you have a standard across all the sales. Here you don't know if the sale price of similar cars was due to finding that one exact buyer or not. Second, when a car is completely disassembled and fabricated like this, I ALWAYS worry about the workmanship. I've seen far too many of these high dollar custom builds where the builder had no clue or deliberately cut corners to flip the car at maximum profit. Often only half the bolts are put back in, patch panels are not well fitted and use crash-repair quality lap welds, etc. Be very careful to assess the underlying workmanship, not just the "resale red" paint and aftermarket chrome.

Amplitude

@joe_padavano Ironically Red is nowhere near the top of my list for color choice. Maybe I'm off base, but I wouldn't consider this anywhere near a "custom" car, would you? Everything that has been done is just a bolt-on replacement for the factory part with no fabrication required. At least to me, true custom car requires at least some of the following: a custom interior, shaved firewall with hidden wiring and hoses, engine compartment filler panels, custom engine with lots of aftermarket parts, filler trunk panels with big custom stereo, custom paint job, exterior body mods, custom wheels, non-stock suspension design. Unless I'm missing something in the photos, it looks like everything they have done is just a bolt-on improvement or replacement of original components. All of which can be removed to put the car back to stock. Heck, it even still has the original AM radio.
The way I was always told to price aftermarket upgrades, was use the average sale price of this car in it's stock form, then give maybe a 20% credit for the price of all the aftermarket components. But no credit for the labor paid.

I just received copies of all the invoices that the current owner has. The previous owner bought it from Volo cars around 2013 or so. Then he added the upgraded suspension, 5spd transmission, A/C, steering box, and a bunch of other stuff totaling $20000 in parts an labor. The current owner has only had it for 3 years.

The ad from from Volo in 2012 reads as follows:

• Original 1968 442 Holiday Coupe
• Just underwent a body off the frame restoration.
• 400-350hp just rebuilt
• 4spd
• Original Scarlet Red
  • Metal on the entire car is perfect, lazer straight and smooth red from rockers to roof.
• Painted Black 442 stripe
• Show quality re-chrome
• Excelent trim
• New windshield
• New weatherstripping
• Restored black interior with buckets and center console
• Brand new Rally Gauges & Tic Toc Tach with quart clock
• New Aluminium radiator
• 12 Bolt Rear
• Remote Mirror
• Rally Wheels
• F-41 Suspension

BangScreech4-4-2

Sounds like you've convinced yourself. Have fun!

joe_padavano

Call it whatever you want - custom, modified, "day two" - the point is that it isn't restored to stock, which makes value a far more subjective issue. Somebody wasted a lot of time smoothing and custom painting the inside of the trunk (which is NOT a "bolt-on), for example. That's a lot of labor that the seller expects to be paid for out of the sale price and it's kind of silly to pay for it if you don't want it. The limited photos make it difficult to provide a meaningful assessment but I can see totally non-stock suspension (aftermarket sway bars, lift bars at the back, likely Chinesium LCAs at the front, rear airbags, and shiny red springs all around), an apparently Chinesium aftermarket power booster and disc brake swap, an aftermarket A/C installation, an aftermarket steering wheel, a 1970-72 console (so it likely isn't an original manual trans car), The side stripes are not painted correctly. The e-brake cable isn't routed correctly. The brake line routing on the rear axle is just asking for damage from stones or debris thrown up from the road. Actually, the incorrect e-brake cable routing tells me that this was originally a TH400 car and whoever worked on it didn't know enough to use the correct e-brake cables for the shorter Muncie. That alone should tell you something about the quality of the build. How much rust repair was done and what was the quality of the work, for example? The fact that the ad claims "F41 suspension" when it clearly is not should also tell you something about the honesty (or at least knowledge) of the seller.

My point in all of this is not to crap on this car. It's to suggest to you that you make an informed decision before slapping down a bunch of cash for this (or any other) car.

BangScreech4-4-2

What do you think about that W-36 stripe, Joe?

joe_padavano

OLDSter Ralph

Joe P, I caught the stripes and trunk right away. I wondered when you would get around to them.

Koda

This is so well said.

Amplitude

I'm not here to have a flame war with anyone. I'm an engineer by trade. I'm used to a point, counter-point dialogue over design issues. Discussing them analytically. If I make assumptions that are incorrect, then that is on me. This was apparently a frame off restoration. So, I'm sure they either dipped or blasted the car. I don't know how bad any rust repair was at that point. but if there was none, or they had to install a new trunk floor, then it is not an enormous task to paint the trunk and engine compartment a body color at that time. Figure about 10 extra flag hours if you use a 2K and a final primer with a DA on a foam interface pad, followed but some medium blocking, but don't cut and polish afterwards. Nobody said they had been fully blocked in primer then cut and buffed to a mirror finish.

If the e-brake cables are routed incorrectly, or are the incorrect length, that's a new one on me. But as I stated before, the car does now have a Tremec TKO 500 5spd which is physically larger than a Muncie and the car has a different exhaust with a very narrow X-pipe merge. These things could have easily interfered with the stock 4spd e-brake cable locations. But I don't know that for a fact. I do however have a materials and labor charge on an invoice from 2015 for a center console and modification to that center console so that the shifter would fit properly. As I stated, all of the information from Volo about the F41 suspension and the factory 4spd with center console was from when they sold the car 8 years ago. The aftermarket components have all been added since then. The suspension is not currently F41. that was prior to the modifications. The new suspension by the way consists of BMR and Detroit Speed components (both made in USA). While we're at it, those rear rear LCAs are factory geometry. To be a "lift bar" the lower control arm mounting location would have to be lowered to adjust the instant center when under severe load.

As for the stripe spacing being off, I see it now. Don't know why that is so funny to you guys. I've never owned an Olds and came here looking for you to be helpful and point our things like that and the e-brake cable. And to give me what you thought was an honest value of a car based upon information I have been given, the appearance of the work that you can see, and perhaps some advice on what to do and look out for. Common points of failure, stuff like that. Instead thus far, this has been the least helpful and positive experience of any forum I have ever belonged to. Now, I'm sure part of that is on me. But I was of the same opinion that @'69442ragtop provided. I didn't see anything that couldn't be undone quickly and easily.

I'm not an idiot. I'm having the car professionally inspected and appraised before I even make an offer. I was just looking to lay out the story of where it post restoration when it was sold in 2012, everything that has been done to it since, and see how those additions affected the value. I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But why would you not want a clean 442 with some of the most common and worthwhile upgrades to make it a good all-around driver already taken care of?

joe_padavano

As noted, you've obviously already made up your mind about this car, so the only reason for this thread is apparently affirmation or fawning. Hope you enjoy it. As for the side stripes, it's funny because very, VERY few of these cars came with them from the factory, but today you're hard pressed to find a 68 that doesn't have them, and they are always applied incorrectly. Same problem with Chevelle stripes on the trunk of every 442 now. In any case, as I've said a couple of times now, my only point was to provide information to make an informed decision. That's a moot point when the decision is already made, so I'll stop wasting your time. Enjoy the car.

RetroRanger

It looks like a decent car from pics w out seeing it. I think people just pointed out things that are not 1968 correct. As well as things we have all experienced like half of the bolts reinstalled etc

also many classic car resellers are nothing more than flippers, who will say anything w out verifying what theyve been told or they might think is correct

no one has misled you or been any less than helpful, youve gotten more information in order to make a better informed decision.

i agree the 5 speed is a nice upgrade along w some other things, but are you buying or selling? I would use everything i can to get the price lower like the red trunk etc.

ie start at thevalue of a good restored car then subtract for modifications you dont like....

BangScreech4-4-2

Just wondering, and this may be something to look into, were any floorpan mods necessary to fit that Tremec?

joe_padavano

That's not really true. The car is obviously modified. It's not intended to be a "correct" restoration. The OP started this thread by asking valuation. Several of us pointed out that is difficult to do with a modified car. Some of us further pointed out the potential pitfalls when buying a car like this. If a buyer likes the mods, that's all that matters. Just be sure the car is represented truthfully. How many threads have we had here where someone bought a high dollar car from a dealer and it ended up being not as represented?

OLDSter Ralph

If you are having it "professionally inspected and appraised", that person should be able to establish a value for you ?

old greybeard

Wow. Great analysis Joe, I’d be thrilled if I was looking to buy and somebody provided that for me. For free, just to be helpful.
Really didn’t think anyone was rude at all. Love the knowledge and friendliness of this site in the few weeks I’ve been a Olds owner.

Koda

A few thoughts.

No one here is going to vulture your purchase, we're not like that, and, restomods don't do it for most of us, who are either stock guys, or racers. We make fun of W-36 stripes because they're added in restorations way too much, and they are usually wrong in dimensions.

It took me about 5 minutes to find the car. They're high. Not too high, but high. I usually start from the Old Car Price guide, which a #2 car is 35.7k (that's showroom new, like best car at the show), and a #3 car (great shape, it all works, wins a cruise in) is 23k. This is for stock, numbers matching, cars. This car is not stock. Assuming it's the original engine, the work looks pretty good. That red is really freaking bright, and the chrome is decently good, but not overwhelming in the pics. The interior is good, but didn't strike me as great. I would consider the car, in stock condition, in that shape, to be worth 29 or so. Who knows with these mods.

Go see it. If you like the mods, good. If every bolt is there and the proper color, good. If it drives great, good. If the car speaks to you, good. This is a "feel" thing. Do you like how it "feels"? Look everything over. Look for bad body repair. Get it up on a lift. Take pictures of everything. I bought a car almost a year ago. I went and saw it three times, then struck a deal.

I'd start as low as you nerve lets you, maybe 7k below what they're asking. Work up from there. Bring a cash deposit, or multiple checks so you can be flexible. I would not be paying what they're asking, and I'd only go up to 5k below what they're asking, and only if I really liked the car.

droldsmorland

I see a lot right and plenty wrong from a purist OEM standpoint.

What I do see is what appears to be a great body and chassis. All metal and trim appear to be in good shape. To me, that's 90% of the battle. If most of the OEM and hard-to-find parts are there and in good shape, you have a 17, 18-20K car all day long just having a clean straight body & chassis. If it's super clean may be more to the right person. Another story if it went to auction. Then add 10-15K just for stupidness.

Look at the prices of a near 100% restored 68 442 stick car. Use that as a judge. They generally trade in the 40-60K range depending on options, desirability & condition. Again add 20-30K for the auction stupid factor. Rarely will you see one sell above 70-80K in the current climate. And it better have the muster and documents.

I'd be suspicious of the vin and or collision damage as it does have a Cutlass S hood indicated by the Oldsmobile and "S" script and the tail lights which are not 442. Again all bolt-on. Could be someone without deep Olds knowledge found better parts and bolted them on during the resto?.

Sure some things are not correct but only to the Olds crowd. I'd drive the hell out if and not worry. With a few adjustments, you could make it look mostly correct on the exterior if that interests you at all. I'm glad the restorer didn't shave the upper stainless trim off the body. To me that kills a 68-69.

Perfect family cruiser IMO for ~18-20K! You wont lose your shorts and who knows one of your kids will forever be an Olds convert.

70W-32

In considering what you should offer, consider this.... 8 years ago someone had to have this car, enough to buy it from the Volo used car lot(I know, they call it a museum, but). That buyer only kept it for 5 years. The current owner only kept it for 3. Take a good look and try to figure out why neither owner wanted it long term. As far as an appraiser, If he's not Olds knowledgeable on '68s, its not a fair appraisal for that car, but just a generic sum.

no1oldsfan

I am curious to the original poster amplitude. Do you have a price in your head? Looks well done. I bet it is a great driver.

teamwieland

Find me a “showroom new” ‘68 442 for $35k and I’ll buy it sight unseen. Been looking for 2 years and haven’t found anything close to that. The Old Car Price Guide may say that but finding an owner willing to sell a showroom new car for that is unlikely.

Koda

Bear in mind that showroom new is not perfect. Unpainted frame, flash rusted fasteners, factory paint and panel alignment. The price guide does go off sales data, so there can be errors due to not enough sales.

joe_padavano

This is the problem with price guides, especially this one. The only info available is public auctions and sales. Typically these are big name auctions like B-J and Mecum. We all know that those sales are not the real world. There is no way that any price guide can track and incorporate the results of private sales. This means that the price guide data will always be skewed to the high side - how much is a matter of opinion because there is no way to know. Add to that the fact that there are nowhere near enough Oldsmobiles sold at these forums to develop anything resembling a statistically valid sample size. The percentages these guides list for options are purely PIFMAs (Pulled It From My @$$) or are extrapolations from Chevelle data. Face it, the only cars with anything close to the sales volume needed to assemble a price guide like this are Camaros, Corvettes, and Mustangs.

I like to track completed auctions on ebay, because at least you get a data point on when cash changes hands. Asking prices and bids that don't meet reserve are meaningless. When you start looking at ebay completed auctions, you quickly find out that most of the high dollar cars never meet reserve.

teamwieland

Joe if price guides are skewed on the high side that makes my point even more emphatic. IMO the original poster would do well to pick up this car for $20k, particularly if he isn’t making an investment and concerned with value when he sells it. Still looking for the showroom condition 442 for $35k as the price guide suggests. It hasn’t existed on the classifieds of this site since I’ve been looking. After having owned a ‘68 442 for 3 years now it is incredible the time and resources that go into all the details of getting a car into that category. I’m only chiming in because it seems a lot of the gray beards on this site are purists that have owned their cars for a long time and don’t realize how much prices have gone up.

joe_padavano

I'm not arguing your point. My point was that the value of this particular car is very subjective. $35K asking price is frankly fair given the amount of work and parts in the car, but again, that assumes that 1) the workmanship is properly done, and 2) the modifications match the buyer's tastes.

https://www.autabuy.com/details/?VID...lectionAdded=1

teamwieland

OK didn’t know asking price was $35k, thanks for pointing that out. I would be surprised if OP could get it for $20k (or less) as some have suggested but that would be a smoking deal. As we all know these cars have a tendency of looking nicer in photos than in real life so hard to say without looking at it.

BangScreech4-4-2

It's a dealership. They gotta take their pound of flesh.

Koda

I know I sound older than I am due to being a grumpus most of the time, but I have not much gray in the beard (although it is growing), but I really don't see a #2 (again, this is factory new, or close to it) not over-restored mint #1 condition 68 442 going for all that much more than $35k. What do you think they go for? I would think that a 68 442 would be one of the lesser popular pre-72 years, and we're not talking a w-30 here.

joe_padavano

Waaaaay too easy...

OLDSter Ralph

x 2 !!!!!!

Koda

You know that guy, when two friends are trading jabs because they're buds, who jumps in on it to throw punches he really means cause he's got an axe to grind with one of them? Don't be that guy.

4+4+2=10

As pointed out by 69442ragtop, the winner in this deal will be the car lot. I just hate buying from any of them. The car appears to be very well done, but you really need to fly in and put your own eyes on it. Your "professional" inspector may or may not be as knowledgeable as you hope. The 68 model year tends to be lower on the value scale across all makes. Chevy, Pontiac, Ford, Chrysler, you name it. It is just a fact of the hobby as car styling improved in the years that followed before they began a downward spiral after the 72 model year.

We all sat in disbelief a few months ago when a fellow forum member's 68 W-30 with 19K miles failed to break the $40K barrier on the "Bring a Trailer" auction website . That car was/is a genuine collector example of Oldsmobile muscle. One that would only appreciate in value in the future. On the other hand, this red car's appeal will likely diminish depending on how much it is driven.

I think 25K is all the money and then some for this car. You will not likely get the dealer to agree with that price however.
tc

Amplitude

I want to thank all of you guys for your input on this.

Here is the VIN: 344878M421962 Which at least verified to be a 442 according to the info pulled up on Haggerty's website. I posted a Pic of the Body Tag below.

I've looked at thousands of cars lately, trying to find a good value where I would either buy something higher-end already equipped almost exactly as I wanted it, or buy something cheaper but solid, that I just needed to do a motor swap with an engine I already have, plus upgrades to the brakes, suspension, rear end, A/C, any interior repairs, and an Overdrive trans. We are still in a huge bubble with prices up allot due to COVID. With everything so over-inflated on price, when I finally came across something really nice looking, with almost all of the upgrades I would have done anyway, but at a realistic cost within my budget. I think I put my blinders on to anything else about the car.
You guys be right in this being a restoration flip at one point. Maybe that is part of the reason why the previous owner had to spend $20K at a restoration and custom shop in Florida to perform the aftermarket upgrades and button-up all those "loose bolts". Hopefully enough good mechanics have crawled around it, that it's fully sorted now. But nothing is guaranteed. I know the reputation of that particular shop, and from all I have heard, they do good work.

I do know that the previous owner had quite a few muscle cars, and apparently just gets bored with them quickly. The current owner never had plans to sell, but he just bought a new house, and it needs some unexpected projects.

I wish it wasn't half the country away from me, and I wasn't so busy with work, or else I would go obviously go out there and see it for myself. I've looked at other 442s locally, and love the cars. I just want to make sure I get a good value, on what will, in the long-term be a bit of an investment that the family and I can enjoy. This is a private party sale, and the individual I am looking to buy it from is firm on his price, as $35,000 is less than he has in it.

I've been looking at NADA values, auction history, and current listings for other 1968 442. Plus the fact that the car sold in 2012 for $30k, then had all the $20k worth of suspension, brakes, steering, transmission, A/C, exhaust, brake lines, and other miscellaneous work performed after that with all the receipts. That's why I thought the deal was really strong. But just because someone paid $50 for a magic pet rock, doesn't make it worth $50, now does it...

Even though I thought I had done all of my own pricing research, I always like to go to the enthusiasts that already own, support, and really know about whatever project I'm looking to get into for their input. That is exactly why I came here.

Here is the picture of the body tag that I was just sent.

4+4+2=10

Originally a Teal Frost paint/Parchment vinyl top exterior with a Teal interior. This is a nice color combo, but obviously tends to validate the "resale red" comment from Joe P.

allyolds68

You spent a lot of time in another thread trying to convince yourself that it was worth it based on originality.... clearly it's not close to original

If you're asking if it's worth $35K, it is....

Amplitude

I wasn't really trying to convince myself for originality sake. I was just looking at originality to add to the basis of value, if it could be turned back to stock. Which, as now found out. It is far from original, I just didn't understand how far...

Ironically I'd rather have the Blue with Parchment than the re-sell Red.

allyolds68

If the bodywork is good on the car and it's a 344 VIN it's worth the money. Restomods are bringing better money than good day-two driver restoration right now. I only have my 68 442 convertible insured for $25k. It's probably a little low.

There are many, many things on this car this aren't original. IMO the Tremec is a big plus as are the suspension upgrades. The color doesn't matter. Red is always going to be more popular than Teal Frost with a Parchment top. I've got a friend that sold a 68 auto 442 a couple years ago for $35k. It had really nice Scarlet paint and everything was numbers matching. The only problem is it was originally Saffron. I told him he'd be lucky to get $25k for it. I was wrong.

Amplitude

Thank you for the input. While I don't think it is as good of a deal as I originally did. I still think it is cleaner, better equipped, and probably a safer buy than just about anything else I can find locally. I personally don't see anything that was done which would date the car in 10 years time. So, hopefully I'm not wasting my kids inheritance. I don't care how good the picture look. I'm still going to get a 3rd party inspection and appraisal. I'd rather walk away for $300, than the other option.

oldcutlass

I agree it's a very nice car that's tastefully modded. It would be an eye catcher and conversation starter anywhere it goes. It's worth cannot be determined by any guide other than your brain and heart. If you think it's value is reasonable and you like it, then buy it. I think the value is closer to $28-32k and would be well worth the effort to get it for less than asking price. When a car is restored through the owners pocket, it's hard to recoup a lot of the labor costs when you go to sell.